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Old February 3, 2019, 04:16 PM   #1
Blade37db
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Best non +P 9mms for a short barrel (Sig 365) for SD

I recently picked up a Sig 365 for EDC. I carry Speer GD 124gr +P in my G19s but I think I want to explore non +P options for the 365. That would eliminate the Speer GD Short Barrel ammo.
I see a lot of people recommend the 124gr HST, but not sure if that applies to shorter barrels.
Recommendations appreciated.
Thanks
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Old February 3, 2019, 05:39 PM   #2
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You should be fine with the 124 HST. Luckygunner did an extensive tests on self defense ammo and you can see the results in the link below where 124 HST did great. They also used shorter barrel pistols for their testing. For 9MM they used the Smith and Wesson M&P 9C as pictured.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...llistic-tests/
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Old February 3, 2019, 09:33 PM   #3
wild cat mccane
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Nothing beats HST.
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Old February 4, 2019, 08:46 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade37db View Post
I recently picked up a Sig 365 for EDC. I carry Speer GD 124gr +P in my G19s but I think I want to explore non +P options for the 365. That would eliminate the Speer GD Short Barrel ammo.
I see a lot of people recommend the 124gr HST, but not sure if that applies to shorter barrels.
Recommendations appreciated.
Thanks
This..Lehigh Xtreme Defender..good video about it considering it's made by Lehigh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAxqkxkSz4k
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Old February 4, 2019, 09:18 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade37db View Post
I recently picked up a Sig 365 for EDC. I carry Speer GD 124gr +P in my G19s but I think I want to explore non +P options for the 365. That would eliminate the Speer GD Short Barrel ammo.
I see a lot of people recommend the 124gr HST, but not sure if that applies to shorter barrels.
Recommendations appreciated.
Thanks
Whatever quality brand name manufacturer you can afford to practice with the most, that feeds reliably in your chosen platform, period.

No bullet type, weight, pressure, or gimmick trumps....
Practice
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Old February 4, 2019, 10:06 AM   #6
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I am using Underwood Extreme Defender in all my 9mm carry guns. Their performance is exceptional even through windshield glass. The downside is the bullet shape which may not be the best if you wind up in court defending yourself. I am old and value performance over being killed by a carjacker and winding up in court.

The best advice I was ever given on this subject was, "find out what your local LE uses and assuming it feeds in your gun, carry that ammo"
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Old February 4, 2019, 10:17 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by gnystrom View Post
I am using Underwood Extreme Defender in all my 9mm carry guns. Their performance is exceptional even through windshield glass. The downside is the bullet shape which may not be the best if you wind up in court defending yourself. I am old and value performance over being killed by a carjacker and winding up in court.
Never heard this..are their any articles you can point to about this..I carry these in both my handguns(Glock 17 and -42)..
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Old February 4, 2019, 10:30 AM   #8
Tactical Jackalope
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I have Speer Gold Dot standard pressure 124gr in my Kahr K9. I don't feel like it'll under perform.

That said, literally all of my guns are loaded with Federal HST either +P or standard pressure.

My HKs are the same but I also run them with Winchest Ranger T 127gr +P+.



Now if you're concerned about ballistic performance out of a shorter barrel, seek shelter in the realm of 115gr bullets. SilverBack or Corbon DPX.
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Old February 4, 2019, 10:40 AM   #9
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This has to be the most over-analyzed question I run across, and I know because I over-analyzed it myself for quite a while. Online ballistic testing tends to produce contradictory results. As best I understand it, the magic behind a "short barrel hollow point" is simply that it's able to fully expand at lower velocities than would be achieved by a longer barrel.

Some options that seem to perform very well out of short barreled pistols include:

- HST 124, 147 and 150 (micro)
- Winchester Defend 147
- Sig's own "365" hollow point ammo
- Hornady Critical Defense 115 (although it seems to have shallower penetration in the reviews I've read, like 12-13" in gel vs. 16" for the others...however it's also been shown to perform very consistently through a lot of different barriers whereas other HP designs can get clogged and not fully expand)

Out of the above, I'd recommend the HST for two reasons: (1) it's never going to fail and it's a demonstrated performer, and (2) you can order it in 50 round boxes at a reasonable price and run it through your gun without feeling like you're wasting money. Most HP ammo is badly overpriced.

That said, I carry Winchester 147 because I bought a couple boxes of it before I discovered that HST costs less. Eventually I'll shoot off my carry ammo and maybe I'll switch to HST. Maybe not. I really don't worry about it anymore.

But overall it really doesn't matter. If you chose one of the ones I just listed, or one that others here have listed, so long as it runs reliably through your P365, just go with it. They'll all poke holes in things and will offer good terminal performance.
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Old February 4, 2019, 12:16 PM   #10
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The downside is the bullet shape which may not be the best if you wind up in court defending yourself.
Is there any hard evidence to back this up?

I hear this sort of claim made all the time on forums, don't do (or carry) X with your gun or you'll be seen as a cold-blooded killer and will never get a fair trial, where X can be any of the following:

- Trigger modification
- "Unusual" types of defense ammo
- Laser sights
- Red dot sights
- Extended magazines
- Spare magazines

I asked a lawyer -- granted, just one lawyer who specializes in 2A law -- and he said that's all internet myth and not substantiated by anything he's ever seen.

This specific Extreme Defender doesn't look all that extreme, apart from the name. Cheap ball ammo can achieve extreme penetration for $0.20 and destroy living things just as quick as any other load if it hits in the right spot.

On the other hand, there may be legal precedent for this or that type of 9mm ammunition being challenged. I'd just like to know what it is so I can review it for myself.
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Old February 4, 2019, 12:17 PM   #11
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Why no +p? The p365 is rated for it.
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Old February 4, 2019, 07:31 PM   #12
Blade37db
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I know it is. Just find standard a little more controllable in that light of a gun
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Old February 4, 2019, 08:00 PM   #13
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I agree with that; the beauty of the 365 is thin, light, good capacity; but it is like (IMO) putting a 357 into a 2" airweight snubbie.
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Old February 4, 2019, 08:08 PM   #14
chris in va
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Quote:
but it is like (IMO) putting a 357 into a 2" airweight snubbie.
The 365 doesn't have anywhere near the recoil.
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Old February 4, 2019, 09:14 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioGuy View Post
Is there any hard evidence to back this up?

I hear this sort of claim made all the time on forums, don't do (or carry) X with your gun or you'll be seen as a cold-blooded killer and will never get a fair trial, where X can be any of the following:

- Trigger modification
- "Unusual" types of defense ammo
- Laser sights
- Red dot sights
- Extended magazines
- Spare magazines

I asked a lawyer -- granted, just one lawyer who specializes in 2A law -- and he said that's all internet myth and not substantiated by anything he's ever seen.

This specific Extreme Defender doesn't look all that extreme, apart from the name. Cheap ball ammo can achieve extreme penetration for $0.20 and destroy living things just as quick as any other load if it hits in the right spot.

On the other hand, there may be legal precedent for this or that type of 9mm ammunition being challenged. I'd just like to know what it is so I can review it for myself.
Massad Ayoob recommends against it. He’s forgotten more about deadly force law than most people ever know, so I tend to heed his advice. Plus, with all the quality self defense loads out there, there’s no reason to use something obscure anyway.
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Old February 4, 2019, 09:17 PM   #16
Captains1911
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Originally Posted by chris in va View Post
Why no +p? The p365 is rated for it.
Excessive recoil out of such a lightweight gun, and the slight increase in velocity over standard pressure is negligible in terms of terminal bullet performance.
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Old February 4, 2019, 09:35 PM   #17
Mackie244Bud
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In my P365 and P320c RX I use Federal HST 124g JHP or Speer Gold Dot 124g JHP for Defensive.

Federal HST 124g AmmoQuest Review:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lGqdMdbir0

Federal HST 124g +P AmmoQuest Review:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ld5jpsaDjbA
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Old February 5, 2019, 09:13 AM   #18
Blade37db
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBM900 View Post
Whatever quality brand name manufacturer you can afford to practice with the most, that feeds reliably in your chosen platform, period.

No bullet type, weight, pressure, or gimmick trumps....
Practice
Placement
Penetration
I agree. I was just looking for suggestions for the best starting point. 124gr HSTs seems to be the winner so I'll start by testing them in my 365
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Old February 5, 2019, 10:26 AM   #19
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The downside is the bullet shape which may not be the best if you wind up in court defending yourself.
Is there any hard evidence to back this up?
There was a case, very well publicized, including a TV show episode about the incident, in which a guy (hiking somewhere in California, IIRC) who'd used a 10mm handgun in a shooting was accused of being a homicidal maniac for choosing it.
I don't know if the accusation figured in the verdict or sentence, but it did come up.

Sort of related; an acquaintance, who happens to be an attorney, was accused, by another attorney, in court, of being a violent maniac, the latter presenting a youtube video of my buddy at an IDPA match as evidence.
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Old February 5, 2019, 10:48 AM   #20
IdaD
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This is probably unpopular but I've gone back to Winchester White Box in 115 grain JHP. It's been reliable and accurate in my guns and I can get it locally for $16 per 50 round box plus sales tax. I think regularly shooting carry ammo is a good idea and this makes it easy and affordable. In the past I've carried Gold Dots, Critical Defense or more commonly HST but I got tired of having to buy online in bulk to spread out the shipping cost and I'm unwilling to pay $1/round for the 20 round retail boxes of that stuff. Maybe I'm just lazy or cheap, or probably both.
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Old February 5, 2019, 12:03 PM   #21
OhioGuy
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Originally Posted by RickB View Post
There was a case, very well publicized, including a TV show episode about the incident, in which a guy (hiking somewhere in California, IIRC) who'd used a 10mm handgun in a shooting was accused of being a homicidal maniac for choosing it.
I don't know if the accusation figured in the verdict or sentence, but it did come up.

Sort of related; an acquaintance, who happens to be an attorney, was accused, by another attorney, in court, of being a violent maniac, the latter presenting a youtube video of my buddy at an IDPA match as evidence.
OK. Well, I guess *anything* is possible and there may be real merit to staying within the bounds of "normal" although plenty of people would accuse us of being violent maniacs for owning firearms at all.

Anyways, in the context of ammo selection, from the reviews I've read, it doesn't appear that fluted bullet designs are THAT much more effective than reliable JHP, to justify either the cost or perceived risk of looking weird for owning it.

So to conclude this thread, just buy Federal HST 124g ammo and all things will fall into place
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Old February 5, 2019, 12:10 PM   #22
OhioGuy
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Originally Posted by IdaD View Post
This is probably unpopular but I've gone back to Winchester White Box in 115 grain JHP. It's been reliable and accurate in my guns and I can get it locally for $16 per 50 round box plus sales tax. I think regularly shooting carry ammo is a good idea and this makes it easy and affordable. In the past I've carried Gold Dots, Critical Defense or more commonly HST but I got tired of having to buy online in bulk to spread out the shipping cost and I'm unwilling to pay $1/round for the 20 round retail boxes of that stuff. Maybe I'm just lazy or cheap, or probably both.
I'm not sure I'm convinced by the need to regularly shoot the ammo you carry. Maybe I'm an idiot (that's a strong maybe!!!) but the point of shooting a given ammo is mainly to ensure that it cycles reliably in a given handgun, right? And unless it's a weird off-brand or an inconsistently loaded re-manufactured product, about the only thing that could prevent it from cycling is the shape of the bullet. Some guns seem to have trouble feeding flat-nosed bullets, especially higher grain "Heavy for caliber" (i.e. long) hollow points. I've heard of a few .380 guns choking on the rubber tips on Hornady bullets. Some pistols have steeper or shallower feed ramps than others.

But once you've run a box or two of Carry Load X through Pistol Y, I would imagine that's a good representative sample. Variations among manufactured cartridges will be insignificant. So I'm not sure I see why I'd continue running expensive JHP ammo through my gun once I've seen that 20, 40, etc. have all run and cycled properly.

Am I missing something?

As to carrying ball ammo -- I won't tell you not to. It still drills holes and they're only slightly smaller than expanded bullets, and not all JHPs will expand the same way every time, etc. Anything can overpenetrate. I carry JHP because I already own it And eventually when I shoot it off, I'll replace it with the same stuff.
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Old February 5, 2019, 12:17 PM   #23
IdaD
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Originally Posted by OhioGuy View Post
I'm not sure I'm convinced by the need to regularly shoot the ammo you carry. Maybe I'm an idiot (that's a strong maybe!!!) but the point of shooting a given ammo is mainly to ensure that it cycles reliably in a given handgun, right? And unless it's a weird off-brand or an inconsistently loaded re-manufactured product, about the only thing that could prevent it from cycling is the shape of the bullet. Some guns seem to have trouble feeding flat-nosed bullets, especially higher grain "Heavy for caliber" (i.e. long) hollow points. I've heard of a few .380 guns choking on the rubber tips on Hornady bullets. Some pistols have steeper or shallower feed ramps than others.

But once you've run a box or two of Carry Load X through Pistol Y, I would imagine that's a good representative sample. Variations among manufactured cartridges will be insignificant. So I'm not sure I see why I'd continue running expensive JHP ammo through my gun once I've seen that 20, 40, etc. have all run and cycled properly.

Am I missing something?

As to carrying ball ammo -- I won't tell you not to. It still drills holes and they're only slightly smaller than expanded bullets, and not all JHPs will expand the same way every time, etc. Anything can overpenetrate. I carry JHP because I already own it And eventually when I shoot it off, I'll replace it with the same stuff.
I still use cheaper FMJ for most of my practice shooting but I also rotate the carry ammo out once or twice a year. So part of it is making sure the ammo functions properly and hits where I expect it, and part of it is keeping it somewhat fresh. I don't know how important having fresh ammo is but it seems more important in everyday carry ammo than it does with hunting rounds that are sitting in my safe most of the year.

As to FMJ as carry ammo, I don't think that's a great idea. It isn't as effective and it's worse from an over penetration standpoint. The WWB I carry is JHP, not FMJ.
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Old February 5, 2019, 07:54 PM   #24
Carl the Floor Walker
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Not NON plus P but you should really try the ARX Plus P. Sweet mild shooting round with plenty of power.

Read this article below

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/search?q=lcr+9mm


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryDTmVdSU8k
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Old February 6, 2019, 08:00 AM   #25
USNRet93
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Originally Posted by IdaD View Post
This is probably unpopular but I've gone back to Winchester White Box in 115 grain JHP. It's been reliable and accurate in my guns and I can get it locally for $16 per 50 round box plus sales tax. I think regularly shooting carry ammo is a good idea and this makes it easy and affordable. In the past I've carried Gold Dots, Critical Defense or more commonly HST but I got tired of having to buy online in bulk to spread out the shipping cost and I'm unwilling to pay $1/round for the 20 round retail boxes of that stuff. Maybe I'm just lazy or cheap, or probably both.
Nope, yer not..I know guys who carry FMJ, same stuff they shoot at the range..cuz it's cheap and they realize that in the teeny chance you may have to shot somebody, that will be fine. I'll bet it hurts like hell.
Yes you will get the 'not gonna bet my life on.....', but I think it's fine. Shooting is a great past-time but even at $10 for 50...if ya shoot a lot, it can be pricy...
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