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Old January 16, 2019, 01:05 PM   #26
FITASC
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Regardless, Sheriff Israel is incompetent and his policies is what lead up to this tragedy.
While it is good that this sheriff was terminated, the SCHOOL folks could have easily prevented this even earlier. They KNEW about him, they did nothing because it would make their crime stats look bad.
This was 100% preventable.
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Old January 16, 2019, 03:09 PM   #27
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The school admin folks did not like the fact that their students (a decent number) wound up in prison. It gave the school a bad rep for having a large criminal base. So, they stopped reporting a lot of things, including the kid involved and his previous incidents.
Partly true. I'm a retired teacher. The School Resource Officers job is about 90% being a resource for the school and a direct link between the school and the DA's office. And about 10% school guard. If they do the 1st part right it really limits the chances of doing the 2nd part.

It is a fair statement to say that schools are trying to limit bad PR. But in this case the previous incidents were reported and the shooter was removed from the school some months earlier and placed in an alternative learning situation where he could be more closely monitored. He was eventually kicked out of that situation. He was not a student at the school at the time of the shooting. From the schools perspective, and the use of the SRO the system worked. At least up to that point.

It was after he was kicked out of school that additional warning signs were ignored. And the response after the shooting started was not well executed.

Before I retired there were multiple doors unlocked all around the campus for easy access to the school. Within the last 2 years all doors are locked except the front door where you can access a small lobby where visitors, parents, or late students can speak through a bulletproof window to a secretary. If they have a legitimate reason to be there they are buzzed in. Sadly, this is the real answer, and even it isn't perfect. There are still lapses in the system and ways to do harm. But is a step in the right direction.
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Old January 16, 2019, 03:20 PM   #28
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Sadly, this is the real answer, and even it isn't perfect. There are still lapses in the system and ways to do harm. But is a step in the right direction.
So taking away freedoms and turning schools in de facto prisons during the day is the answer? I drive by some of the newer schools that have been built in Florida and if it didn't have a school sign out front, you couldn't be sure if it was a jail or not. I understand everyone wants to keep kids safe; I am just not sure that is the best way to do it.
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Old January 16, 2019, 03:47 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by jmr40
Partly true. I'm a retired teacher. The School Resource Officers job is about 90% being a resource for the school and a direct link between the school and the DA's office. And about 10% school guard. If they do the 1st part right it really limits the chances of doing the 2nd part.

It is a fair statement to say that schools are trying to limit bad PR. But in this case the previous incidents were reported and the shooter was removed from the school some months earlier and placed in an alternative learning situation where he could be more closely monitored. He was eventually kicked out of that situation. He was not a student at the school at the time of the shooting. From the schools perspective, and the use of the SRO the system worked. At least up to that point.
No, completely true.

You may be a retired teacher, but I'll guess you're not retired from the Broward County school system. The school system and the sheriff's office had an arrangement going under which most offenses were either reported as lower-grade offenses than they really were, or simply weren't reported at all. The goal was to show improving statistics with regard to youthful offenders in the school system.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that, once you start down that road, there's no turning back until the gangs control the schools. In order to continue the "improvements" from year to year, it becomes necessary to ignore or down-grade increasingly serious offenses. And that's exactly what Parkland and Deputy Peterson were doing. Dig deep enough, and you'll find that Peterson's awards were basically for his success in fudging the paperwork on offenders within the school system.

The sheriff knew about this, so he was also part of the problem. And Superintendent Runcie knew about it, and was central to it. So he was -- and is -- part of the problem, and that's why many people now want him gone.

This was reported fairly extensively shortly after the shooting.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; January 16, 2019 at 06:59 PM. Reason: typo
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Old January 16, 2019, 04:15 PM   #30
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So taking away freedoms and turning schools in de facto prisons during the day is the answer? I drive by some of the newer schools that have been built in Florida and if it didn't have a school sign out front, you couldn't be sure if it was a jail or not. I understand everyone wants to keep kids safe; I am just not sure that is the best way to do it.
I'm not sure what else can be done at this point without spending a ton of money and resources. Even if we armed teacher, not all teachers would be armed. I don't believe it is possible to get multiple teachers trained to the point where they are capable of handling an active shooter scenario. If a kid in the back of the class started blasting away, how would the teacher respond and how many kids would get nailed in the crossfire? I know it will be faster than a resource officer running from one side of the school to the other, but not as good as trying to prevent the introduction of weapons in the first place. It is certainly better than issuing weapons to all of the kids and giving them body armor. Not sure a battlefield is any better than a prison.
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Old January 20, 2019, 11:20 AM   #31
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So taking away freedoms and turning schools in de facto prisons during the day is the answer? I drive by some of the newer schools that have been built in Florida and if it didn't have a school sign out front, you couldn't be sure if it was a jail or not. I understand everyone wants to keep kids safe; I am just not sure that is the best way to do it.
Jails have razor wire on top of the fence around the building. Schools just have fences, no razor wire. I hope that helps. (LOL) just kidding

Try to keep in mind that the majority of people in public schools are our children who the school board is responsible to protect while under the schools care. Since they are not considered adults I believe their freedoms are and should be some what limited to what the schools board decides their freedoms should be while under their jurisdiction and we should be OK with that. We should also be OK with armed guards in schools whether that be teachers or others. Todays schools are nothing like the schools we attended. Today they're not seen as places of education only, now they also have become soft targets that guaranteed attention for the crazies out there.
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Old January 22, 2019, 02:19 PM   #32
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He is a nitwit, and it is astounding that he made it that far.
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Old January 22, 2019, 03:05 PM   #33
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I'm not sure what else can be done at this point
Stop fudging the numbers and put those in jail that need to be there and KEEP them there?
Better yet, disband the public school system and go to home-school, charter schools, parochial schools and private schools. Make school populations smaller - too bad if it hurts their Friday night football program...............
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Old February 3, 2019, 06:32 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by FITASC View Post
No, it wouldn't have because the school and Sheriff already KNEW about him and covered it up to reduce their crime numbers. Red Flags don't work when the very folks responsible for alerting and then preventing are in cahoots to save their own butts with phony stats
Exactly, besides these kinds of "red flag" laws will be used and abused by folks with a "agenda", and will in reality not prevent "bad people" from doing "bad things", that is simple logic.
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Old February 10, 2019, 09:39 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by silvermane_1 View Post
Exactly, besides these kinds of "red flag" laws will be used and abused by folks with a "agenda", and will in reality not prevent "bad people" from doing "bad things", that is simple logic.
The ‘simple logic’ via hindsight would show that in some instances, like with Cruz, a ‘red flag’ type system ‘may’ have prevented this school shooting. Would it be abused? Like any system or program, yes it would be. The question is whether the ‘abuse’ is SO bad that the system should either not be created or abandoned....OR be fixed/modified so it is more effective without curtailing people’s rights. But to ban it out of hand as ‘not effective because of potential abuse’, is incorrect IMHO. Using that criteria, just about every program now in existence, social security, Medicare, you name it, would be snuffed out.
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Old February 10, 2019, 10:24 AM   #36
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Broward County didn't need any "red flag" system to identify the Parkland shooter as a problem. They had plenty of documented "interactions" with him. The problem was the initiative (I guess I'm not supposed to call it a "conspiracy") between the school district and the sheriff's office to improve the statistics on criminal offenses in the schools by down-grading felonious incidents to less serious offenses. This was why deputy what's-his-name was lauded so highly as school resource officer -- not because he was a great SRO, but because he was so effective at waving his magic wand at crimes and making them "disappear" in a cloud of smoke and mirrors.

It doesn't take a PhD to figure out that, once you start down a road of "improving performance" by fudging the statistics, the only way to demonstrate continued "improvement" is by continuing to reclassify ever more offenses into ever less severe categories.

No "red flag" law in the universe can work as advertised if/when the offenses that would raise the red flags are declassified to lower-level offenses that fly under the radar.
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Old February 10, 2019, 12:58 PM   #37
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Those who don't know what I was referring to in the above post might find some interesting reading here:

https://www.americanthinker.com/arti...ent_lives.html

https://conservativedailypost.com/br...e-been-result/

https://teejaw.com/29631-2/

I am reminded of the story about Abe Lincoln and the five-legged dog. (What do you have if you call a dog's tail a leg? Answer: You have a four-legged dog, because calling the tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. Calling a felony a misdemeanor doesn't make the offender any less of an offender.)
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Old February 26, 2019, 02:17 PM   #38
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Long time teacher here. Let me tell you what really happened.

When No Child Left Behind was enacted in 2002, part of it was giving each school a grade. Part of that grade was the overall discipline record of the school. The more discipline problems, the lower your school grade. Because of this, school admins learned that they could fudge the numbers by reducing or not reporting crimes committed on campus.

One example. One of my coworkers had a fight in class. One kid grabbed another and threw him over the row of desks and jumped on him and started to choke him. My buddy breaks them up and sends the aggressor to the office for fighting. Later that day, the admin asked my buddy if the kid had thrown any punches. When she found out that no punches were thrown, she said, "Good, I don't have to write it up as a fight."

I could literally spend all day giving you stories like that. The admins have had YEARS of consciously (and by choice) looking the other way. By attaching your school grade to discipline, we TRAINED the admins to look the other way. No one at that school had prepared for school violence ON PURPOSE.

Also, the Sherriff's Resource Officer is not allowed to get involved in any problem on campus unless asked to by the principal. I hate to say it, but if you want to be a SRO, you'd better be a suck up to the principal. That includes being blind to problems around you, and fitting in with the school culture - be a sheep like everyone else.
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Old February 26, 2019, 02:51 PM   #39
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And a lot of the reasons why I got out of it (was going to be a 2nd career for me)
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Old February 26, 2019, 03:44 PM   #40
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Also, the Sherriff's Resource Officer is not allowed to get involved in any problem on campus unless asked to by the principal. I hate to say it, but if you want to be a SRO, you'd better be a suck up to the principal. That includes being blind to problems around you, and fitting in with the school culture - be a sheep like everyone else.
That may very well be the case in Palm Beach County but not all counties. My wife was in the Manatee Cty school system for about 20 years. The resource officers there were generally very involved in the schools - indeed the ones I met were great assets. Now granted, there were some that couldn't pass a PT test if their lives depended on it but even those (that I knew) were able to make a difference.
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Old February 26, 2019, 06:17 PM   #41
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Pretty pathetic response by the armed SRO, Sheriff’s Deputies and Capt. Notably, several unarmed monitors ran to the sound of the gun and were killed.

One measure that schools absolutely must take is allowing those adults on campuses who desire it and get a CCW to be armed. No, not every armed coach, teacher, or admin will respond effectively. But if even one of those monitors who did respond had been armed, or the teacher trapped in the hall with his class, the killing might have ended sooner. No guarantees, but the kids chances go WAY up if there is just one armed adult who responds. If there are a dozen then deterrence and response effectiveness probability go up much more.

Nothing can possibly be as effective as multiple armed adults who can respond right now, and who know the kids, who belongs, who is likely trouble.

I see millions of dollars lavished on new school buildings and administration campuses to be start of the art in curb appeal. If they don’t incorporate hardened rooms, alarm systems, real time cctv, electronic door lock systems then they don’t a rat’s ass about the kids. Their bleating otherwise to the contrary.
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Old February 26, 2019, 06:52 PM   #42
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I see millions of dollars lavished on new school buildings and administration campuses to be start of the art in curb appeal. If they don’t incorporate hardened rooms, alarm systems, real time cctv, electronic door lock systems then they don’t a rat’s ass about the kids. Their bleating otherwise to the contrary.
These are still only band-aids and not the solutions to the disease.
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Old February 26, 2019, 07:13 PM   #43
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It’s pretty difficult to get into the teacher’s lounge in a lot of schools.
I can’t easily get into many of the rooms and it passages at Kaiser Permanente.
Dang if I can get into the pharmacy at the local grocery store. Some late night gas station attendants are sitting behind security doors and bulletproof glass. A school can be made more secure. Can spend a little less on staff luncheons as a start.
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Old February 26, 2019, 08:42 PM   #44
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These are still only band-aids and not the solutions to the disease.


We won’t get rid of crazy. We already have laws for involuntary admittance to psych care but rarely used. So I don’t see much probable opportunity on prevention by controlling the future killer. The main opportunity for prevention seems to be limiting access and hardening infrastructure. The first step in mitigation of the risk of a shooter is having as many armed adults as want to be (which is very low cost if kept to individual choice not mandatory). I don’t think it will ever be feasible to have enough armed paid officer to make much difference, just too costly across all schools.

Shooters attack schools partly because they are gun free and even the armed SRO is a known joke. And the schools have very little security infrastructure. Most corporate campuses have card key access, some even have turnstiles to prevent tailgating through doors. Live monitored cctv, radio equipped unarmed security (comms is their main duty). Most of the later shootings have been former students or others that are not currently enrolled. First line of prevention has got to be to keep out the 300 million that DON’T belong. Then you work on infrastructure to prevent or mitigate if one of the 3,000 goes haywire: gun sensors, auto locking doors and alarms, hardening rooms/corners, live cctv, etc. Not rocket science, thousands of companies did most of these things decades ago. The school did have identified “monitors” but appear not to have been trained as responders, if even just to sound the alert, direct students, have universal keys, etc. training, training, training.

Perhaps there could be a case made for smaller schools. With 3,000 students there is a degree of anonymity and just a lot of campus to protect. A 500 student school may be much less likely to be targeted and much easier to control/monitor outsiders. May seem expensive but compared to securing a huge campus maybe the overall cost is not so bad.
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Old February 27, 2019, 04:59 PM   #45
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What you think of public schools is not relevant. Such deleted.
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