|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
January 27, 2019, 09:16 AM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 28, 2006
Location: South Central Michigan...near
Posts: 6,501
|
The purpose of a flash hider.
When I was in Basic Training in 1962, I was issued an M1 Garand. M1s do not have flash hiders. However, the M1s replacement, the M14 did have a flash hider as did the M16 of the Vietnam era.
A few years ago, a former Marine told me that the purpose of a flash hider was not to hide the flash from detection by the enemy, but to "hide" the flash of firing from the shooter to enable maintaining the shooter's night vision while firing his weapon. This begs the question, inasmuch as we had a night-firing exercise in which we fired our flash hider-less M1s at silhouette targets in the dark without loosing our night vision, just what is its purpose then? |
January 27, 2019, 10:12 AM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 646
|
It wasn't too long ago that I was reading a story on the .303 Jungle carbine. It stated the same thing, protection of the shooter's night vision, not to hide the muzzle flash from the enemy.
|
January 27, 2019, 10:41 AM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 23, 2013
Location: Central Taxylvania..
Posts: 3,609
|
Yup, hide it from the shooter, not the shootee.. Lol
__________________
When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!! "Januarary 6th insurrection". Funny, I didn't see a single piece of rope... |
January 27, 2019, 11:01 AM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 29, 2010
Location: Shoshoni Wyoming
Posts: 2,713
|
Hiding from both is best. Flashes attract bullet.
|
January 27, 2019, 11:17 AM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 10,806
|
All of the above. Plus it helps protect the crown from damage.
__________________
"If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill |
January 27, 2019, 11:39 AM | #6 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,468
|
a flash hider will also diminish the total amount of light, The brightness, the heat and incandescence of it.
A bullet ejecting will blow a fireball out of the side. A huge, hot fireball. A flash hider breaks up that fireball, delays it, sets up turbulence, and sends some of that light out to the side radially along with the flame. The hider cools things down and breaks up the ball of incandescent gasses and cuts out some of the light. Per wikipedia referencing Army Field Manual FM 3-22: Quote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_suppressor
__________________
None. |
|
January 27, 2019, 01:31 PM | #7 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 28, 2006
Location: South Central Michigan...near
Posts: 6,501
|
Quote:
The M1 Garand has a barrel length of 24 inches. The M14 has a barrel length of 22 inches. Would two inches make a difference in muzzle flash? |
|
January 27, 2019, 01:45 PM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 8,283
|
On preserving the shooter's night vision: I don't question that idea.
A Special Forces A-team leader I know quite well described an event in Bosnia. Heavy fire was coming from a tree line at night. Fire was returned at the muzzle flashes. A later recon of the site showed showed significant evidence of casualties. But,yes,preserving night vision is valuable. On the Garand, Quickload gives a % of powder burned in the bore.I cannot claim night live fire experience with a Garand ,but it might be the relatively quick burning 4895 powder equiv did not flash quite as much. I'm not claiming I know this to be true,but speculating,the ball powder in the M-14 7.62 may have carried the burn farther down the bore. Last edited by HiBC; January 27, 2019 at 02:02 PM. |
January 27, 2019, 02:00 PM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,453
|
M-14 and M-16 flash hiders are more of a flash spreader than anything else. They create a nice star shaped muzzle flash. The shooter firing at night will lose his "night vision" anyway with any added light. Closing one eye does work though.
YouTube has some uses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JkmWVCd674
__________________
Spelling and grammar count! |
January 27, 2019, 03:29 PM | #10 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 28, 2006
Location: South Central Michigan...near
Posts: 6,501
|
Quote:
|
|
January 27, 2019, 04:10 PM | #11 | |
Staff
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,975
|
Quote:
At any rate, whatever the reason, flash hiders on any gun were just about unheard of until later in WWII.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
|
|
January 27, 2019, 10:44 PM | #12 | |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,820
|
Quote:
Both have the same purpose, but there is a slight mechanical difference in their construction. The solid cone shaped device attached to the end of the barrel of the M2HB .50 cal machine gun, and the M3A1 .45acp SMG ("Grease gun" and to one variant of the M1 Garand, as well as the device on the British "Jungle Carbine" were all called "Flash hiders". Every time. The device on the M14 and M16 are different, they have "holes" (slots" in the body, and are called "flash suppressors". You can look in the Army manuals, and in other places and see them always referred to by different names, because they are different items. That being said, people today tend to use the terms interchangeably, with no real world effect, other than giving me the impression that they don't really know what they are talking about... Ask someone what motor they have in their car. Most will say without hesitation a 4.6. 8 cylinder and give the size in CuIN or in liters or CC, and think nothing of it. But technically its not a motor, it's an engine. And going further, its an internal combustion engine of (details of displacement) size. Ask a car geek what motor is in his car, and he might ask back, "Which one?? The starter motor? windshield wiper motor?? power window motor?? We do it with clips and magazines, too. and I'm done wasting arguments over it. It happens, I point out the correct terms, once, then move on (or pretend to move on... it constantly irritates me when I read the term "bullet clips" in the text of a law..) A flash hider and a flash suppressor are there to reduce the effect of the flash on the shooter's vision, and the people near him, on his side. The hider is true to its name, it used solid metal to "hide" part of the flash from the shooter's vision. Flash supppressors don't "hide", they change the appearance of the flash to the shooter (and those in line with or behind them), from a "ball" to a "cross" type shape the arms of which are the flash that escapes through the slots or holes. For military use this is efficient enough, and also allows for a more durable construction. A flash hider's cone must be relatively thin metal due to weight considerations, and is more easily bent or damaged than the usual flash suppressor's heavier construction. A flash suppressor can be more heavily built, because it can be smaller than a flash hider and still do its job effectively. I think the most likely reason the M1 Garand (and earlier rifles we used) didn't have flash hiders or suppressors is that they weren't considered a needed thing for general duty use. Rate of fire matter, too. Prior to our modern era, you find flash hiding devices on more machine guns than on rifles. Bolt actions, and even the semi auto Garand cannot be fired fast enough, long enough to create a sustained fireball (affecting the night vision of everyone seeing it) the way a full auto does. The M14 and the M16 are capable of full auto fire, so reducing the visible flash of bursts matters more than reducing the flash of individual shots fired from a Springfield or even a Garand. PLUS, experience is a teacher, though some lessons are learned slower than others, after WWII, we had a LOT of people with personal experience in low light combat situations, some of them even got into decision making slots in the Ordnance organizations. And, going back to the Garand, a medium burn rate powder .30-06, fired from a 24" barrel. semi auto, as fast as you can, 8 shots, isn't the same degree of flash as a 3second (or longer) burst from a belt fed. Think about what you see in the dark when the other guy in your hole shoots, or if you're where that machinegun's flash is in the corner of your eye..reducing that, for the guy who isn't shooting has military value, too. And today, with our M4 class guns, burning 30some grains of powder out of 14" or even 10" barrels. Something to cut the flash is even more important.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
|
January 28, 2019, 04:51 AM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 6, 2016
Posts: 224
|
We were taught to close the firing eye and use the non firing eye for observation under ilum. When you see the bad guy switch eyes to fire.
|
January 29, 2019, 08:17 AM | #14 |
Junior member
Join Date: February 2, 2010
Posts: 6,846
|
Helps prevent plugging your muzzle with "goo" when using a bayonet.
|
February 4, 2019, 10:04 PM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 9, 2009
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 8,303
|
coolness and the AR
With the AR rifle the current rage, and the ease of swapping the various muzzle gadgets on and off, and the vast array of aftermarket products available, the cool factor is driving alot what gets screwed on the end of rifles and carbines these days.
I put an A2 on my .308 Savage Hog rifle, just because it was threaded and I could. |
February 5, 2019, 04:20 PM | #16 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 20, 2000
Location: Colombia, SC
Posts: 745
|
I just had a friend shoot my M1 Garand, as well as a short barreled FAL with short Vortex, and a Century Cetme/G3.
I was amazed by how much flash the Garand had, actually more like a fireball, it was my handloads with 47 grains of 4895 under a 150 grain bullet. I never noticed it shooting it, but you could really see it standing behind the shooter. The short Vortex had almost no flash, neither did the Cetme. we fired some SA in the Fal, and really old corrosive ZV-72 in the G3.
__________________
I don't have time for busy people |
February 6, 2019, 12:10 AM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 7, 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,862
|
44 AMP,
I appreciate you highlighting the distinction between flash hiders and flash suppressors. I've used the term flash hider for a long time in reference to flash suppressors, and now that I know it's technically (according to US military terminology) incorrect to do so, I will make every effort to change. As far as motors go. . . A lot of people must be wondering why they have to put gasoline in their electric vehicles, wouldn't you think? |
February 7, 2019, 11:23 AM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,061
|
Flash Hiders work, if you have the right one matched to the ammo.
When I doing the night firing in Sniper School using the M21 w/ the Starlight Scope I was supprise to find there was no Muzzle Flash detected using the M14 Flash Hider and M118 Ammo.
__________________
Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071 |
February 7, 2019, 11:58 AM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 30, 2012
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Posts: 1,752
|
Don't forget the " It Looks Cool " factor.
The more useless junk you can attach to a rifle ....the better ! Flash hiders don't hide noting from nobody ... Think about it ! Gary |
February 7, 2019, 11:16 PM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 10, 2005
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 2,747
|
Yes, more muzzle flash on carbines, less time for the gasses and powder to burn on shorter barrels. Ever shoot a Mosin The fireball out the muzzle of the M44 carbine with approx 20 inch barrel is huge in comparison to the flash of a M91/30 rifle with its 28+ inch barrel.
__________________
God's creatures big and small, eat them one, eat them all. |
February 14, 2019, 08:44 PM | #21 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 11, 2006
Posts: 481
|
I don't know how true this is but I read some where that a flash suppressor is meant to keep the muzzle flash out of the shooters line of sight. The flash suppressor is suppose to be timed to the barrel so that no ports are lined up with the sights.
|
|
|