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Old June 11, 2015, 07:44 PM   #26
James K
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Sometimes you can get in trouble with local law even when you don't have an NFA firearm. An acquaintance had an M1A and decided to play pretend by putting on one of those phony selector switches. A cop who was a VN vet saw the gun and went ballistic. The owner was not arrested, but he spent several hours on a Sunday afternoon "assisting the police" while they got their FI guy off the golf course to confirm that the rifle was not full auto.

The owner took the dummy selector off.

(Sure, I know "he shudda done this" or "he cudda said that", but when surrounded by real cops who might not have a sense of humor, most folks prefer not to tell them off and rant about "rights".)

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Old June 11, 2015, 11:26 PM   #27
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...she also stated over the speaker phone that I did not have to show paperwork to any one other than the BATFE or one of the BATFEs agents.
You don't have to, but you might find yourself detained by a local/state LEO until they get things straightened out.

In TX, your NFA paperwork doesn't just prove you aren't violating federal law, it also proves you aren't violating state law which outlaws NFA items if the person doesn't have the proper NFA paperwork.
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Old June 19, 2015, 02:53 PM   #28
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I've actually never seen police or dnr at the ranges. They train at a gun club closer to town. I don't own an NFA item but I do have an AK pistol. I didn't think of it when I bought it but I hope I never run into a cop who doesn't know it's legal without a stamp.
If I had an NFA item, why not leave a copy in your vehicle?
The ATF may say you don't need to produce paperwork to local police but it's a safe bet if you say you don't have to prove anything to a cop, while they think you're committing a felony, you'll find yourself wearing handcuffs.
I've actually been questioned about the car I was in, that I own, was stolen. Because your majority of car theives steal beat up cars and do a hit and run just to go to the grocery store.
Getting off topic but I learned this over time. If you ever go to your car and there is a police car blocking it, it's safe to assume they aren't just being inconsiderate and it's a coincidence. No, they are there to block your car in. And when they approach you don't think they are wanting your help if you've seen someone wondering around. No, they are there looking for you assuming you are a criminal. Even when you haven't commited a crime, for that matter the crime didn't even happen. So when you say I have a PDF file on my phone I'm sure you can expect a nice long conversation with plenty of threats.

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Old June 20, 2015, 11:45 PM   #29
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I had a police officer ask to see my paperwork on a suppressor I had on my AR15. I had a shrunken copy in my pocket. I informed the officer that I did not have to show him my paper work and that I only had to show it to a member of the ATF.

I did get a pat down but it was not thorough enough to find the old folded piece of paper. I was in a bad mood at the time. Fortunately I am old and mostly retired so spending the day at the police station was just "fun" for me. I was hopping they would bring an agent down but they just called the ATF and got the information after a couple hours.

Was I with in the law? Yes. Was I a Jerk? Yes but I know I educated multiple police officers that day.

My wife chewed me out and said I should of just shown the police but I believe in my right to privacy and would gladly go threw it all again if I means I get to keep a little of my privacy. Ill take my privacy and freedom over convenience any day.
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Old June 21, 2015, 04:43 AM   #30
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No, but as Blackbook pointed out, some states criminalize the owning of NFA weapons. In those states, it is an affirmative defense against prosecution to produce the paperwork. In short, you are presumed to be breaking the law until you can prove you're not. Several states are like this.
And, as usual. it is overlooked that police have no legal right to demand to see your NFA paperwork since it is a tax document.
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Old June 21, 2015, 10:49 AM   #31
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And, as usual. it is overlooked that police have no legal right to demand to see your NFA paperwork since it is a tax document.
That's very nice, but the fact is that possession of an NFA item is prima facie (on it's face) illegal. It becomes legal only if one has the proper paperwork, and so having the necessary paperwork is an affirmative defense.

As we've seen in this thread, if the NFA item has been properly registered but the person in possession doesn't have or produce the paperwork he is most likely to be detained while law enforcement can verify that his possession is lawful. The police aren't just going to let him go about his business.

If someone wants to challenge that sort of detention for an investigation as violating his Fourth Amendment rights, he's of course welcome to try. I don't think that a court will, however, be very receptive. See Embody v. Ward (Sixth Circuit, 11-5963, 2012).
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Old June 21, 2015, 01:05 PM   #32
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".she also stated over the speaker phone that I did not have to show paperwork to any one other than the BATFE or one of the BATFEs agents." That is not quite what the regulation or the Forms say.

The actual wording is, "This approved application is the registrant's proof of registration and it shall be made available to any ATF officer upon request." That is not the same as the aforementioned quote. It does not say no one else can ask or that only an ATF agent can ask.

There is also a little trap there. When you ask BATFE a question about the law, their reply is ONLY about federal law; they deliberately WILL NOT mention or discuss state or local law since they do not enforce those laws. If you assume that their reply covers state or local law and get in trouble, that is your problem, not theirs.

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Old June 21, 2015, 07:45 PM   #33
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And, as usual. it is overlooked that police have no legal right to demand to see your NFA paperwork since it is a tax document.
If you refuse to present your NFA paperwork in TX, you will eventually be convicted of a state felony for owning/possessing illegal weapons. Possessing a silencer or machinegun is a felony in TX if you can not/will not produce the proper NFA paperwork.
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Old June 21, 2015, 10:44 PM   #34
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I did get a pat down but it was not thorough enough to find the old folded piece of paper
That folded piece of paper was outside the scope of that search, which was most likely a search for weapons. He would have been outside his "legal limits" to remove and inspect the paper during the "pat down"
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Old June 21, 2015, 11:15 PM   #35
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Pardon me for asking but doesn't a photocopy of an original Form 1 have all the authenticity as a photocopy of an original driver's license?

It's not certified, it's not stamped by a Notary Public, it's subject to being photo-manipulated (altered, forged, shrunken, enlarged, etc.)

Is it more of a courtesy to show an inquisitive officer of the law who probably never saw a real Form 1 ever before than any sort of 'proof'?
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Old June 21, 2015, 11:37 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by 4thPoint
Pardon me for asking but doesn't a photocopy of an original Form 1 have all the authenticity as a photocopy of an original driver's license?...
As a general matter of evidence law a photocopy can usually be accepted as evidence and as meaningful as an original. Sometimes that is not the case, e. g., a driver's license; but a copy at least includes information which would make it a relatively easy matter to verify its validity.

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Originally Posted by 4thPoint
...It's not certified, it's not stamped by a Notary Public, it's subject to being photo-manipulated (altered, forged, shrunken, enlarged, etc.)...
Certified by whom? A copy of an official document certified by a public official is required only for certain purposes, e. g., a copy of a birth certificate certified by the custodian of public records to get a passport.

Notaries don't just stamp things. They validate signatures and administer oaths.

If someone is going to forge a document, he might as well try to make it look like an original.
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Old June 21, 2015, 11:43 PM   #37
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With the BATF doing Eforms and emailing you your "stamped" form 1...a printed copy is all there is
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Old June 22, 2015, 03:29 PM   #38
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A cop who was a VN vet saw the gun and went ballistic. The owner was not arrested, but he spent several hours on a Sunday afternoon "assisting the police" while they got their FI guy off the golf course to confirm that the rifle was not full auto.

Cop stuck his snout where it didn't belong-should have it notched for his trouble.
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Old July 9, 2015, 08:54 PM   #39
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Threads like this one depress me, too many folk just rolling over and letting their rights be trampled.

I'm an SOT, NONE of my NFA items even have "A tax stamp" to display even if I wanted to.
Sure they are all NFA registered, on F2's.
I do not take copies of my F2's to the range and know for a fact that most cops cannot even understand an F2 or F4 if it's show to them.
Since I may register several items at one time any F2 I have would only confuse the cop.
They would likely want to see the other items listed as well.
Strikes me as a warrant-less search, not going to cooperate with that.

The only cops asking to "See your paperwork" are clueless 'tards stepping on your rights to assert their authority and let you know who's the boss and that you are a mere peon.

The stamp IS a confidential tax document.
If your state law does not recognize this truth you need to work on getting that law changed.
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Old July 9, 2015, 11:48 PM   #40
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The stamp IS a confidential tax document.
If your state law does not recognize this truth you need to work on getting that law changed.
Confidential or not, in TX, if you don't/can't present the proper federal paperwork, you will be arrested and charged under state law for possessing an illegal silencer or illegal machinegun.

Actually, the last legislative session improved the law. Maybe next time around they can improve it a little more.

As the law currently stands, if you're not ok with the possibility of having to show your paperwork to state/local LE in TX then I guess the only alternative is to not possess machineguns or silencers in TX.
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Old July 10, 2015, 11:05 AM   #41
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Seems a large percentage of my production goes to TX, something about feral hogs being a problem.

If the customers are OK with an abusive law it's not my problem, but where I live I do all I can to keep such abuse at bay.
Been pretty successful to date.
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Old July 10, 2015, 09:01 PM   #42
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If the customers are OK with an abusive law it's not my problem, but where I live I do all I can to keep such abuse at bay.
From a practical standpoint, TX law relating to silencers & machineguns is virtually identical to federal law.

From both a federal and a state standpoint, it's a felony to own/possess silencers or machineguns.
From both a federal and a state standpoint, having the proper paperwork makes it legal.
From both a federal and a state standpoint, that paperwork is the NFA mandated paperwork.

In other words, TX law pretty much mirrors federal law in terms of practical implementation. I guess you could make the point that both the state and federal laws are abusive, but I don't really see the distinction that makes one abusive while the other is acceptable.
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Strikes me as a warrant-less search, not going to cooperate with that.
How many times have you refused to cooperate with an LEO at the range when asked for evidence that your NFA items are legally possessed?
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Old July 15, 2015, 08:56 PM   #43
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The short answer is: don't forget copies of your stamps.
I keep photocopies of all of them in my range bag, as well as individual copies with each item. I also keep scans of the forms on my phone in .pdf format.
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Old July 15, 2015, 10:36 PM   #44
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Yeah, I'm like a few of the prev posters.

I keep copies in range bags, my vehicle, wife's vehicle that I only drive 5% of time, pdf's on my iPhone and wife's (even tho she doesn't shoot with them - if my phone is dead).

Hopefully, that provides enough redundancy to prevent a stampless situation from ever occurring.

For what it's worth, I've been pulled over for speeding twice in last six years since getting CCW and I actually got treated better in both cases by the officers, after offering up my CCW license to them, than I ever did before getting CCW.
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Old July 17, 2015, 07:14 PM   #45
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Sometimes you can get in trouble with local law even when you don't have an NFA firearm. An acquaintance had an M1A and decided to play pretend by putting on one of those phony selector switches. A cop who was a VN vet saw the gun and went ballistic. The owner was not arrested, but he spent several hours on a Sunday afternoon "assisting the police" while they got their FI guy off the golf course to confirm that the rifle was not full auto.

The owner took the dummy selector off.

(Sure, I know "he shudda done this" or "he cudda said that", but when surrounded by real cops who might not have a sense of humor, most folks prefer not to tell them off and rant about "rights".)
I kind of want to buy one.

It would match the non operational selector on my M16A1 clone.
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Old July 17, 2015, 07:20 PM   #46
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Meh, I never bring my nfa paperwork out. The only folks who ever asked for it were knowitalls that then immediately spouted off some misconceptions about nfa like "I don't buy that because the government can inspect your house with a tinfoil detector whenever they want...."

I usually just ask them to produce their auto liscence, registration, and proof of insurance, and they usually just go away or tell me a story about how their buddy's cousin put a fake selector switch on their rifle and next thing you know the old gunny next lane over is calling Barney Hill and TJ Hooker on his jitterbug. I try to be as sincere about wishing them a good day as possible, but honestly it's just a giant waste of time, so the nfa stuff has been staying home lately.

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Old July 17, 2015, 07:31 PM   #47
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Ive never been asked for any paperwork either. I had one of my SBR's and a suppresor on the range today. A cpl guy came over and asked about the gear but no inquiries about the papers

I do have pics of the form 1's and 4's in my phone and paper copies in my range box, but i never expect to need to show em to a range Nazi or even the local LEO's.
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Old July 20, 2015, 01:03 PM   #48
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a story about how their buddy's cousin put a fake selector switch on their rifle and next thing you know the old gunny next lane over is calling Barney Hill and TJ Hooker on his jitterbug.
You are dismissing half the fun in owning NFA! I love it when some folks make up a bunch of horse-crap about NFA ownership. The more authoritative they are the more wild and interesting the stories.

Let's see:

"....you know, ATF will send an agent to search your house in the middle of the night because you own that thing..."

"...my boss's buddy got his Class 4 license and he can legally convert any gun into a machine gun..."

"...aren't you worried that having that machine gun will put you on the FBI's terrorist list?"

"...See, Paul, I told you it was easy to convert a Mini-14 into a machine gun..."

"...is that legal?"

Oh, and yes, I always keep a copy of my stamped Form 4 with me when take my AC556 or USAS-12 (stamped Form 1) anywhere.
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Old July 21, 2015, 04:39 PM   #49
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There is state law and there is federal / NFA law I'm still arguing with the state of CT regarding form1's and an SBR. Not a handcuff issue but still while creating the NFA item is perfectly legal the state has their own ideas and currently the ATF is differing to them on the issue so state is in fact trumping federal.
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Old July 21, 2015, 07:48 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Coach Z
...while creating the NFA item is perfectly legal the state has their own ideas and currently the ATF is differing to them on the issue so state is in fact trumping federal.
In general, federal law supersedes state law (see Constitution, Article VI, Clause 2). But under general federal preemption principles, unless Congress has shown in the statutes enacted regarding a particular subject an intent to "occupy the field" (i. e., foreclose any regulation by States regarding the subject matter), a State may also enact laws on the subject; and those laws will be enforceable by state authorities.

So in general state laws regarding NFA items which are more restrictive than federal law will be valid and enforceable in those States. So while what you're doing might be perfectly legal under federal law, if it's illegal under the laws of the State in which you're doing it, what you're doing is illegal.
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