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Old January 31, 2015, 10:04 AM   #51
tirod
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I note that a lot of SBR stamp owners were posting amazing return times that seemed to have accelerated. The wait times two years ago were reportedly 8-9 months, once the brace sales were rolling I read where stamp applications were being returned in 8-9 weeks. The ATF is reported to have increased their staff, but I think it was reduced applications. The brace simply killed SBR stamp sales.

Now that the letter has hit the ATF has started returning all applications with any error whatsoever. Back to square one to the applicant, to correct and return. The wait time starts over.

I'm seeing an agenda by the ATF to choke stamp sales and cut off Brace sales. Their letter was handed out per political guidelines, on a Friday afternoon with nobody to answer the phones all weekend. Added to that, that weekend everyone was traveling to the biggest firearms sales event annually, with dozens of new braced equipped guns for sale along with new brace styles.

It's all about the anti gun politics of this administration, and they pulled off a pretty good punch. Brace owners immediately clogged for sale forums with them discounted to move, and others started inquiring about adding 5" flash hiders or applying for stamps.

They are getting the enforcement they needed from the gun community itself. And it's already getting worse, a post on another forum has a pistol owner being told by a range officer that shouldering his buffer tube is illegal, and forcing him to leave the range under escort.

It's already as bad as that guy getting tackled at Walmart. We have seen the enemy, and he is us.
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Old January 31, 2015, 11:20 AM   #52
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Quote:
The ATF is reported to have increased their staff, but I think it was reduced applications.
Applications haven't fallen off by that much. They're simply handing out overtime and increasing staffing.

Quote:
I'm seeing an agenda by the ATF to choke stamp sales and cut off Brace sales.
Without evidence of such conspiracy, it makes more sense that the decrease in wait times and the revised policy on the pistol braces are unrelated factors.
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Old January 31, 2015, 05:22 PM   #53
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Quote:
tirod ......The ATF is reported to have increased their staff, but I think it was reduced applications.
Increased staff, unlimited overtime and contract labor. Remember the sequester REMOVED the contract labor.......and it took months to get those workers back.



Quote:
The brace simply killed SBR stamp sales.
Not by a long shot.
Even if it did affect Form 1's, the addition of several states making silencers legal for hunting (Texas among them) increased the number of Form 3's and 4's more than ever.




Quote:
I'm seeing an agenda by the ATF to choke stamp sales and cut off Brace sales.
Um yeah. You forget that they have made electronic form filing a reality. Remember, they weren't forced to do so.

The backlog isn't a conspiracy or "agenda", its how government works. Agencies have a budget and no matter how conditions change they can't just hire more document examiners because they want or need them.




Quote:
Their letter was handed out per political guidelines, on a Friday afternoon with nobody to answer the phones all weekend.
That's funny.
Other than "what letter?" what would you expect someone to say?



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Added to that, that weekend everyone was traveling to the biggest firearms sales event annually, with dozens of new braced equipped guns for sale along with new brace styles.
And that's the fault of who? ATF? Or those who its a brace its not really a stock ?



Quote:
It's all about the anti gun politics of this administration, and they pulled off a pretty good punch. Brace owners immediately clogged for sale forums with them discounted to move, and others started inquiring about adding 5" flash hiders or applying for stamps.
Nothing in ANY of the ATF's Open Letter or previous determination letters has anything to do with this administration. As a matter of fact THE BRACE WAS APPROVED by this administration...........I doubt it would have been any different under Bush, Clinton, Nixon or anyone else. The determination letters are consistent with previous NFA rulings and determination letters.




Quote:
They are getting the enforcement they needed from the gun community itself. And it's already getting worse, a post on another forum has a pistol owner being told by a range officer that shouldering his buffer tube is illegal, and forcing him to leave the range under escort.
Their range, their rules.





Quote:
It's all about the anti gun politics of this administration,
I disagree. It's been a pretty consistent interpretation of the National Firearms Act of 1934...........a shoulder stock on a handgun makes it an SBR.


Quote:
..... Brace owners immediately clogged for sale forums with them discounted to move, and others started inquiring about adding 5" flash hiders or applying for stamps.
And that's not solely the fault of ATF.
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Last edited by dogtown tom; January 31, 2015 at 05:34 PM.
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Old February 1, 2015, 10:13 PM   #54
raimius
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I disagree. It's been a pretty consistent interpretation of the National Firearms Act of 1934...........a shoulder stock on a handgun makes it an SBR.
Yes, but now a "not shoulder stock" may or may not make the handgun and SBR...how you hold it or intend to hold it now determines whether you should go to prison or not--sounds reasonable, no?
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Old February 11, 2015, 11:02 AM   #55
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I didn't realize someone was privy to the number of applications being submitted and the hiring practices of the ATF in the last two years.

Any links to those facts?

If someone wants to pump their ego deconstructing another's opinion, it's really a waste of time. The fact is that the Brace changed the playing field in some significant ways.

First, the AR community began to realize the only difference between an AR pistol as a toy range gun and a stamped SBR was 1) a stock 2) the stamp.

In terms of legality, the pistol already had significant advantages, especially where a State outlawed possession of SBR's. In terms of accuracy, the discussion become centered on how much do you need for a weapon who's primary mission is close in shooting under 50 feet?

There are plenty of threads and videos showing the pistol is as effective as the SBR. Functionally they are identical in all other respects - except for a flat vertical surface on the rear to stabilize holding it against the shoulder.

There are other methods and in the 50 foot accuracy range it's moot. A handgun would do as well, what the pistol offers is rifle level power and high capacity, plus it falls under CCW guidelines.

The AR shooters were well aware of the distinct advantages, and adding a Brace only sold the concept to a lot more.

Prior to the Brace, wait times on Stamps were over 18 months. Currently, the wait time is now weeks.

My contention is that for every Brace sold, there was a Stamp application put off, and that is what caused the major reduction in wait times.

Absent hard facts to the contrary, it's just an opinion, and everybody has one.

What the Open Letter has done, tho, is to highlight who is being complicit with the ATF in supporting the status quo. On the other hand, there are those who are reminding us that the NFA is a discriminatory and unConstitutional act to deprive citizens of their 2A rights, and imposes a "poll tax" that only allows those "approved" to pass muster and own a firearm that for millions of others would be illegal to possess.

And aren't sorry for suggesting that if buying a Stamp is the price of your integrity, so be it.

Bickering over the details of what is obviously an attempt to further restrict our 2A rights is exactly what anti gunners and the current Administration want to get. It deflects from organizing and getting Congress or the Courts to remove the provisions of the NFA. That should be our #1 effort - not rumbling in threads to prove who's the alpha poster.

Either the citizens of the United States run their government, or the government will run us. Considering the current state of affairs, it seems as if there are plenty who like the way things are right now and have no inclination to see any change at all, even if it would benefit the many.

They would lose the there paid membership in an exclusive club - which is why the AR pistol and brace threatens them more than it does the ATF. There are a lot of apologetics going around stating "what did you expect?" when the real question should be "why do we tolerate this infringement on our Rights?"

Bad enough one forum is closing threads with the disclaimer that holding a buffer tube to the shoulder is "criminal activity." Do you support that conclusion?
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Old February 11, 2015, 12:18 PM   #56
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I didn't realize someone was privy to the number of applications being submitted and the hiring practices of the ATF in the last two years.

Any links to those facts?
Yep. The ATF sent an email to dealers a few weeks back on the matter. Here are the relevant parts:

Quote:
As a result of recent changes in state laws concerning certain National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms and devices and other factors, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has experienced an exponential increase in NFA applications in recent years and months. For example, in fiscal year 2005, while ATF processed nearly 41,600 NFA applications, by 2013 that number had skyrocketed by more than 380 percent to more than 199,900 applications. The increase is significant because of the volume as well as the short period of time in which applications have spiked.
We'll skip the stuff about how badly the eForms system crashed and burned.

Quote:
ATF will take aggressive steps immediately regarding eForms and existing paper application processes. Measures already taken include the following:

ATF has surged staffing availability to seven days per week to process both eForms and paper applications. As a result, ATF has already reduced the backlog of applications from more than 80,000 to 73,700, an almost 8 percent reduction in the total backlog since March 20, 2014. Monthly processing volume has increased from 17,200 to 23,600 per month due to the surge, representing a 37 percent increase in form processing.

ATF is immediately hiring 15 additional staff to assist in processing NFA applications. In addition, another 15 current staff members are cross-training to assist with NFA application processing.

• Staff from across ATF have been recruited to assist in backlog processing.

• ATF has prioritized Form 3 and Form 4 paper application processing, as appropriate, while we are bolstering eForms capabilities. This action will ensure that the highest volume of pending applications is given higher priority and that industry needs are met.

• ATF has engaged world-class private sector companies to assist in enhancing eForms capacity and functionality to provide industry with the most efficient service possible.
So, there's that.

Quote:
There are plenty of threads and videos showing the pistol is as effective as the SBR. Functionally they are identical in all other respects - except for a flat vertical surface on the rear to stabilize holding it against the shoulder.
Yep. There are tons of videos. If you do a Google image search on "Sig brace," you'll see picture after picture of people using them as a stock. People were all over social media extolling the virtue of the brace as a stock.

Is it any wonder the ATF took a dim view?

Quote:
My contention is that for every Brace sold, there was a Stamp application put off, and that is what caused the major reduction in wait times.
I just provided data to the contrary. Do you have something to back up your theory?

Quote:
On the other hand, there are those who are reminding us that the NFA is a discriminatory and unConstitutional act to deprive citizens of their 2A rights, and imposes a "poll tax" that only allows those "approved" to pass muster and own a firearm that for millions of others would be illegal to possess.
That's not news. It's been the case since 1934.

If you have a credible plan to propose legislation or litigation to change the situation, I'd love to hear it. If your plan is to flaunt the law, it's not going to do much good.
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Old February 11, 2015, 08:02 PM   #57
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First, the AR community began to realize the only difference between an AR pistol as a toy range gun and a stamped SBR was 1) a stock 2) the stamp.
Seriously?
Either you haven't been paying attention or you never bothered reading the NFA subforums on this website or any other.

Heck, I knew about SBR's forty years ago.
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Old February 11, 2015, 09:56 PM   #58
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Heck, I knew about SBR's forty years ago.
This is part of the problem I've been seeing the last few years. We have a new generation of shooters who are enthusiastic about getting involved. That's great!

What's not so great is that they assume we haven't already been fighting these battles, sometimes for decades. These aren't new laws. The reason they still stand isn't because gun owners are do-nothing "Fudds." It's because the framework hasn't been there to challenge them until very, very recently.

When it comes to the NFA, we're not there yet. Folks need to stop poking the bear until the time is right.

If anything, this whole mess is a symptom of that. It should also stand as a lesson.
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Old February 23, 2015, 03:26 PM   #59
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Tim from The Military Arms Channel made an excellent video showcasing the dangers of this letter issued by the BATFE.

I already wrote my state reps and the BATFE, sure hope more get active. Though I fear too many will be apathetic to this, and all it will take is one case of someone getting arrested to effectively ruin everything even further.

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