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Old November 24, 2009, 10:55 PM   #51
Crosshair
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Skans, I think you are missing my point, confused, or both.

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I am a supporter of the 2nd Amendment. Although I myself adhear to all firearms laws, I consider the NFA unconstitutional.
I agree with you on both.

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If I want to work for BATFE, I'd send in my application, go through the interview process and collect my paycheck for the services you seem to think I need to do for them for free.
It is not the job of the BATFE to educate people about guns laws, it is their job to ENFORCE those gun laws.

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When someone goes up to another person they don't know and says, for example "hey, buddy, did you know that rifle of yours looks to be 2"'s too short and you could be looking at some serious penalties" - that person has no idea whether you intend to turn him in, or where you're coming from.
Are you saying that you are afraid that that person is going to kill you and bury your body behind the berm? Not trying to be obtuse, but that is the only conclusion I can draw from that statement.

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That's right, if you own a gun, you better know the laws.
and you apparently are not going to lift a finger to ensure that people are aware of the laws. We were all young and stupid at one point. You should have seen my first attempt at 922r compliance.

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Unfortunately, it's the government's business to enforce stupid firearms laws that have no purpose whatsoever. It's not my business, and I have no intention of letting the government make it my business.
Nobody is asking you to have the ATF hot-line number on speed dial and turn everyone in, just educate people when you see potential violations.

From what I am reading from your post, you are saying you would rather a young gun owner get a felony conviction and a decade in prison because you don't want to be bothered to educate them so they could correct the problem before the BATFE found them?

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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Old December 1, 2009, 09:32 AM   #52
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Are you saying that you are afraid that that person is going to kill you and bury your body behind the berm? Not trying to be obtuse, but that is the only conclusion I can draw from that statement.
No, not at all. What I'm trying to say is that someone whom I don't know might take my education as a warning to "fix the problem, or else...." The "or else being that I might just decide to go to the local PD or BATFE officer and make mention of it. Not that I ever would, but a complete stranger doesn't know that. Who knows, maybe the guy knows it's completely illegal and he likes it that way and doesn't want others poking their noses into his business.

What would you do if you encountered a situation where some guy had a rifle with a barrel 3" too short (without registration); you approached him on your own accord and educated him on the particular NFA law he's violating; and the guy says "yeah, I know - you're not going to tell anyone about it are ya?" Now you know the guy is knowingly breaking the law - are you going to argue with him about it? Turn him in? Scare him by telling him he's going to be doing time in Club Fed for 10 years? Or, simply say "that's cool, good luck with that."?

Do you see the problem? I simply choose not to look for problems with other people's firearms.

However, if I am seriously considering purchasing a firearm, then I will ask whatever questions I need to to make sure that the gun hasn't been screwed with and is 100% legal. But, that's a completely different situation. A while back some guy tried to sell me a Cobray Streetsweeper for what most would consider a great price. I asked him if it was registered on a Form 1, and he pretended not to know what I was talking about. I just told him "No F-ng way" - not interested. Because the guy didn't ask me something like "what's wrong, Buddy" or "what's a Form 1", I highly suspect that he knew and wasn't simply "uneducated". As far as I see it, that's where my responsiblity ended - walking away form a gun that I suspected wasn't right.

Quote:
From what I am reading from your post, you are saying you would rather a young gun owner get a felony conviction and a decade in prison because you don't want to be bothered to educate them so they could correct the problem before the BATFE found them?
No, I certainly don't want to see that happen. Look, if the person with an illegal firearm was a friend or someone whom I thought genuinely didn't know he might be violating the law and is completely oblivious to the fact that he is hanging his pee-pee out there to be wacked off I would probably say something. I don't mean to make it sound so absolute that I'd never discuss NFA laws with a possible violator under certain conditions.

Last edited by Skans; December 1, 2009 at 09:39 AM.
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Old December 1, 2009, 09:40 AM   #53
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Quote:
Are you saying that you are afraid that that person is going to kill you and bury your body behind the berm? Not trying to be obtuse, but that is the only conclusion I can draw from that statement.
No, not at all. What I'm trying to say is that someone whom I don't know might take my education as a warning to "fix the problem, or else...." The "or else being that I might just decide to go to the local PD or BATFE officer and make mention of it. Not that I ever would, but a complete stranger doesn't know that. Who knows, maybe the guy knows it's completely illegal and he likes it that way and doesn't want others poking their noses into his business.

What would you do if you encountered a situation where some guy had a rifle with a barrel 3" too short (without registration); you approached him on your own accord and educated him on the particular NFA law he's violating; and the guy says "yeah, I know - you're not going to tell anyone about it are ya?" Now you know the guy is knowingly breaking the law - are you going to argue with him about it? Turn him in? Scare him by telling him he's going to be doing time in Club Fed for 10 years? Or, simply say "that's cool, good luck with that."?

Do you see the problem? I simply choose not to look for problems with other people's firearms.

However, if I am seriously considering purchasing a firearm, then I will ask whatever questions I need to to make sure that the gun hasn't been screwed with and is 100% legal. But, that's a completely different situation. Just recently some guy tried to sell me a Cobray Streetsweeper for what most would consider a great price. I asked him if it was registered on a Form 1, and he pretended not to know what I was talking about. I just told him "No F-ng way" - not interested. Because the guy didn't ask me something like "what's wrong, Buddy" or "what's a Form 1", I highly suspect that he knew and wasn't simply "uneducated". As far as I see it, that's where my responsiblity ended - walking away form a gun that I suspected wasn't right.
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Old December 4, 2009, 01:09 AM   #54
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i guess it depends on the person selling as i have seen the glock stocks for sale with guns atached and questioned the sbr legality and was atacked by the guy selling them so just went on. same with short 10" ar-15 uppers being sold with lowers (told to just wait to assemble them till the paperwork came back, just keep them in the safe seperate till the stamp comes back) questioned intent and was told i dont work for the atf so i dont know the law. on the other side seen a kid with his dad selling a colt ar-15 with a a2 upper (14" or less). asked and they just got the upper and put it on the lower to sell. talked about the sbr stamp and did not know about it. pulled it apart and sold the upper and lower seperate and got more than he was selling the rifle for. guess it depend on the seller
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Old December 16, 2009, 11:33 PM   #55
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Slang term "Gat"

This term comes from Gatling Gun......
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Old December 17, 2009, 07:47 AM   #56
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MYOB

That's the bottom line here, as has been pointed out a couple of times already. If someone is trying to sell you a suspected illegal weapon, sure, if you are the RO and someone has a sawed off on your range, sure. If the guy on the range two lanes down from you is firing an SBR, not so much. Unless of course he invites you to try out his cool SBR. Those that go looking for trouble, are very likely to find trouble.
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Old December 17, 2009, 09:19 AM   #57
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Discretion

It's the same principle law enforcement officers use to justify issuing or not issuing a ticket, either to other drivers or drivers who have badges.

I knew someone who had a M1 Thompson that 'daddy done brought back from the war'. I knew it was unregistered. I also knew there was no way for them to register it after the fact. I guess I'm in collusion with them to disobey the law, but I told them to just keep it under the bed and not display it in public (telling them not to use it for criminal purposes didn't cross my mind, it wasn't something they were likely to do).

I had another person who cut a Ruger 10/22 down to pistol size , less than 16 on the barrel and probably under overall length as well. I told them that the safest course of action was to Immediately separate the barrel from the receiver and to file ATF paperwork if they wanted to stay out of prison. Didn't to a lot of good, their reply was "All I'm going to do is use it for 'coon hunting, I don't need any paperwork for That. Besides it's a rifle and that's more powerful than a .22 pistol."
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Old December 22, 2009, 06:23 PM   #58
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had one at a show(carry in) and had a ar-15 w/12" barrel. claimed he got it at the last show that way. informed him of the law and after looking at the inside it was built from a m-16 parts kit on a ar-15 lower (cant remember make). after talking i got a email and sent him doc's on useable parts from m-16's. the thanked me and told me it was a private seller with no info. he sold the upper and got another and a lpk to fix the lower too. some people will listen and others dont care till the atfe knocks on the door.
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Old December 29, 2009, 12:30 PM   #59
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I had another person who cut a Ruger 10/22 down to pistol size ,
For coon hunting? I'm trying to picture what such a 10-22 would even look like! I reckon some people butcher perfectly good rifles for no good reason at all. Just bored, I guess.
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Old December 29, 2009, 12:45 PM   #60
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I had another person who cut a Ruger 10/22 down to pistol size ,
Mighta been a store bought Charger?
http://www.ruger-firearms.com/produc...ger/index.html

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Old December 29, 2009, 12:49 PM   #61
Skans
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Mighta been a store bought Charger?
Well look at that - that's not a bad looking piece. I was picturing a hack job with part of the stock sawed off and part of the barrel sawed off.
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Old December 29, 2009, 04:22 PM   #62
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Ya know, reading this thread just reinforces for me how insane the gun laws are in the USA.
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Old January 29, 2010, 02:35 PM   #63
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I just had one. There was someone posting on AR15.com. He had an HK94 pistol clone. He wanted to consign it with all of the accessories. Only problem was one of the accessories was a stock. I at first just let it go. However later in the thread he said it could be used for a sear or a SBR project.

I sent him an E-mail asking if it was already registered as a SBR. I also sent him a link to the story about Jesus Amador. The photos were gone from the thread within hours if that says anything.
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Old February 1, 2010, 10:47 AM   #64
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I am a supporter of the 2nd Amendment. Although I myself adhear to all firearms laws, I consider the NFA unconstitutional. If I want to work for BATFE, I'd send in my application, go through the interview process and collect my paycheck for the services you seem to think I need to do for them for free.
Skans,

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Old February 2, 2010, 12:21 AM   #65
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Wasn't one of the newer Ruger Chargers, this was close to ten years ago. It was just hacked off like you'd see on a cut down shotgun from the days of Bonnie and Clyde.
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Old March 29, 2010, 04:38 PM   #66
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I haven't seen a person violating NFA laws but if I did I would probably say something like "Hey man, you need to be careful who you're showing that too it is not legal to the ATF and they are serious about it." This does 2 things, I have either just educated someone who didn't know any better or have just informed someone doing it intentionally doing it that they shouldn't be doing it. I have done both in a nice way, the first guy knows to fix his unintentional problem and I have avoided a possible ugly confrontation with the second guy by not appearing as the enemy.
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Old March 29, 2010, 05:10 PM   #67
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You're not breaking any law just because you don't want to play BATFE-agent.
Unfortunately, this is not always the case; If you have knowledge of a felony and fail to report it, you are guilty of "misprision," which is also a felony. See how it gets trumped up?
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Old March 29, 2010, 06:26 PM   #68
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Are bad laws meant to be broken? It hasn't gotten to the point where I'm willing to break any. But, at what point would even a police officer (which I'm not) declare that a "law" is so oppressive that he would refuse to enforce it?

If you are a police officer, or to any police officers out there - would you be a party to rounding up all of the legally purchased semi-auto "assault weapons" if your Congress and President pass a law making them illegal?
I think you may have misunderstood me. There are a plethora of laws I do not agree with, but that does not mean I think they should be broken.

I am not a police officer, but I am an active duty member of the military. While I do not think I will be asked to round up legally purchased firearms in the near future, I would not be a party to such action. I would rather be court martialed than to trample on the rights of my fellow Americans. THAT BEING SAID, There would be several steps in between now and then, and I firmly believe that if Congress or the President ordered such action, there would be very few members of the military(or the LE community for that matter) who would blindly obey such orders.

My opinions are my own and I have thick skin, two things that appear to be in short supply on this and other forums.
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Old March 29, 2010, 08:17 PM   #69
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Old March 30, 2010, 08:09 PM   #70
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Quote:
gyvel
Quote:
Quote:
You're not breaking any law just because you don't want to play BATFE-agent.
Unfortunately, this is not always the case; If you have knowledge of a felony and fail to report it, you are guilty of "misprision," which is also a felony. See how it gets trumped up?
Nope.
Misprision requires active concealment of a known felony rather than merely failing to report it.

United States v. Johnson 546 F.2d 1225: "The mere failure to report a felony is not sufficient to constitute a violation of 18 U.S.C.A. § 4."
http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/...5.76-1581.html



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Old March 31, 2010, 08:19 AM   #71
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In all reality, if I were to find some thugs farting around with illegal machineguns, I'd report this. Most of us probably would. But, in my mind, this is different than running across a friend or acquaintence who might have a forward grip where he shouldn't, have an AK with too few US parts (I know, not NFA, but still...) have a barrel cut down a little too short, etc.
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Old March 31, 2010, 01:47 PM   #72
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Quote:
Nope.
Misprision requires active concealment of a known felony rather than merely failing to report it.

United States v. Johnson 546 F.2d 1225: "The mere failure to report a felony is not sufficient to constitute a violation of 18 U.S.C.A. § 4."
http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/...5.76-1581.html

Interesting. In that case, if you have knowledge of a felony and don't report it, are you then merely an accessory or "aiding and abetting?"
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Old April 8, 2010, 11:37 AM   #73
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AJD21

Are you sure about that 18" barrel rule on shotguns. I thought that was rifles and shotguns were 16". I actually bought a new .410 stainless "Snake Charmer",which was a single shot, that had a 16 1/8" barrel. I think I bought it in the mid 1980s, but am not sure. I do remember the measurements because I made a regular stock and grip for it. The original stock was a plastic weird pistol grip and the forearm was plastic.
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Old April 8, 2010, 02:06 PM   #74
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18 inches for Shotguns, 16 for Rifles.
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Old April 8, 2010, 09:16 PM   #75
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http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/i...rreled-shotgun
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