The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old June 26, 2006, 04:39 PM   #51
D.S. Brown
Join Date: December 20, 2004
Location: Lewisville, Texas
Posts: 57
As many of my instructors have said, "anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice."

Glock 23 .40 S&W DDT*** 9,500+ rounds
Glock 27 .40 S&W ELL*** 4,800+ rounds
Glock 35 .40 S&W GAD*** 3,400+ rounds
Glock 23 .40 S&W CLU*** 2,200+ rounds
D.S. Brown is offline  
Old June 26, 2006, 05:44 PM   #52
Junior member
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Posts: 996
Stephen 426: Do you consider yourself to be a good defense attorney? How much is your legal advice worth? What was your standing in your law school class? How many years have you practiced criminal defense law? In what states are you licensed? Do you give a discount for TFL members?
Ausserordeutlich is offline  
Old June 26, 2006, 06:09 PM   #53
Senior Member
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 3,578
Originally Posted by Ausserordeutlich
Do you consider yourself to be a good defense attorney? How much is your legal advice worth? What was your standing in your law school class? How many years have you practiced criminal defense law? In what states are you licensed? Do you give a discount for TFL members?
What is the point of your post? To play big shot lawyer? I am not a lawyer and I do not play one on TV. Johnnie Cochran is dead so you had better find someone else. He cost OJ Simpson over $3.5 million. But hey, if you want to place your freedom in the hands of some rookie public defender, then go right ahead. If I read correctly, the NRA will also help you out if you are a member, but I doubt they would really go out on a limb in a questionable shooting.

Anyway, my post was made in response to ATW525 comment that "bullets are cheap". What jury would not at least consider the possibility that the defendant was actually guilty of murder with a statement like that? Pretty much everything I have read indicates that you should not say anything to the police without an attorney present and if forced to speak, say you shot to stop the threat. If you have some better advice, please share.

By the way, I thought the term criminal attorney was redundant.
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Old June 27, 2006, 02:53 AM   #54
Junior member
Join Date: January 5, 2005
Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia
Posts: 5,866
Well, I sort of resemble that remark. Yes, I have a JD. Yes, I have worked in the DA's office, as an intern, for 6 months.

What is the law's, and the DA's concern: Was the person in threat of their life, and, where they justified in shooting? After that, it's pretty much moot. We REALLY want to get the bad guys, and, if we have a guy with a 20 page rap sheet, and someone shoots him, we aren't going after the shooter, if it was justified. The entire Ayoob, handloads, multiple shots, etc. stuff never made it into consideration.

Believe it or not, most of the guys we dealt with where clearly criminals, carrierwise, and, if someone actually had a gun, in San Francisco, ownership is now illegal, pending Supreme Court ruling, and shot one, the DA has far better things to do then prosecute innocent people, when so many are clearly criminals. Why waste time on a borderline case, when you have tons of really bad people to put away?

Socrates is offline  
Old June 27, 2006, 01:46 PM   #55
Senior Member
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 3,578

I fully understand that DA's have better things to do than prosecute innocent people. What happens if the person you shot happens to not have a major rap sheet either because he he is new to the world of crime or he just hasn't been caught yet? Then would a DA consider the possibility that emptying a full magazine into the guy might have been a little excessive and question the whole self defense arguement? I'm not saying it will happen, but I'm pretty sure that it will increase the likelihood of happening. You guys can do what you like, but I'm stopping as soon as the threat is over. I just hope I can do it with a few well placed shots rather than pumping the guy full of lead.
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Old June 27, 2006, 04:42 PM   #56
Senior Member
Join Date: June 10, 2005
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 2,227
With my SIG on me...self defense starts with one long hard trigger pull followed immediately by 14 more shorter, easier trigger pulls...or as many as needed until threat is no longer a threat.
God's creatures big and small, eat them one, eat them all.
kymasabe is offline  
Old June 27, 2006, 05:41 PM   #57
Senior Member
Join Date: May 12, 2002
Location: MO
Posts: 5,206
FWIW I have spent almost 10 years as the investigator (read "office cop") for a PA office. The prime considerations in evaluating cases like this go something like this-
  • Would a reasonable person have felt in danger of death or serious bodily injury, either for themselves or for a third party whom they were acting in defense of?
  • Is the use of force in this instance otherwise justified under the law?
  • Did the shooter do anything to contribute to the breach of peace that precipitated the act of defense?
  • Were there other options available besides the use of deadly force? (Retreat, etc.-may not apply in your state.)
  • Was the use of defensive force immediate to the threat, or did the actor leave and return with a weapon and 'restart' the dispute?
  • Was the force applied beyond the point where it was justified under the law?

This is not a comprehensive list, but in my experience these questions almost always get asked- whether the person using deadly force is Joe Citizen, or Joe Cop (except the 5th one). Nobody in my experience has ever considered whether the ammunition used in a clearly defensive shooting was ball, reloads, JHP or whatever. This includes 12 years of law enforcement experience beyond the PA office. Premidated murder is another matter entirely, and the ammo selected by the shooter is fair game.

I will suggest that pumping rounds into someone after the 'fight is out of them' is a good way to wind up in prison. I have seen it happen.

I will also suggest that the political environment in your area may be such that the DA or PA is 'gunning' for people who use firearms on other people, whether they needed shot or not. What 'goes' in west Texas may not 'go' in New Yawk Sitty. State laws are different throughout the US, as are the views of the 'powers that be' regarding the defensive use of firearms.

It shouldn't be this way, but it is what it is. You'd do well to consider this before living or hanging around in environs where your right to self defense is questioned on its face.

If you have questions about your specific area, write or call your state Attorney General's office. Ask for a response in writing, or a reference to the statute that applies in self defense/use of dealy force cases.
May a person who is relocating out-of-State move firearms with other household goods? Yes.
Sarge is offline  
Old June 28, 2006, 02:24 AM   #58
Junior Member
Join Date: June 27, 2006
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 2
New to this site.

Theres alot of talk about pistols, mainly because that's what people keep on their nightstand. I keep a shotgun under the matress. 870 Express Magnum loaded with #4 buckshot. Its much easier to put an intruder down with a COM hit with such a shell. However, i dont have kids. I might be a little more concerned about using a shotgun if i had little ones around.
If guns kill people then spoons make Michael Moore fat.
ETRANGER is offline  
Old July 3, 2006, 09:49 AM   #59
Ace On The Line
Senior Member
Join Date: June 30, 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 111
Boarding House Rules

Everybody gets one before anyone gets seconds.
Ace On The Line is offline  
Old July 3, 2006, 10:49 AM   #60
Senior Member
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 3,578
Ace On The Line,

I think it really depends how many people you are up against. I had my first IPSC shooting experience last week and the typical drill is two shots for each cardboard target before moving to the next target. Considering that the primary defense weapon for most of us (outside the house) is a handgun, 2 to the chest is not a bad idea, especially since it takes just a fraction of a second more. It is much faster to put 2 in the same target than to reacquire your sights for a second round of shots. Besides, unless your shots are instantly incapacitating, the badguys you shot may still be able to shoot you. Practice double taps if you are allowed and you will be suprised how quickly you can get 2 shots off. Now if your concern is ammo capacity because you carry a 5 shot revolver or a small pocket gun, you might want to go one shot each or double tap each and then reolad from cover. I doubt you will get caught in a fire fight way out in the open, and I seriously doubt that everyone will just be standing there shooting at each other. Thats just my $.02 worth anyways.
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

Last edited by stephen426; July 5, 2006 at 10:33 AM.
stephen426 is offline  
Old July 3, 2006, 12:31 PM   #61
Ace On The Line
Senior Member
Join Date: June 30, 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 111
Stephen 426

Unless Clint Smith haschanged his instruction course "The Boarding House Rule" was being taught there, admittedly its been a number of years but old habits are hard to break. Without going into the Mr.Smith's logic behind this or getting into any other gun guru's theories on the subject, let me just say that I favor Mr. Smith's wisdom on the subject. Not to say anyone is wrong or right, its a choice we all must make and believe in. None of us want to be caught undecisive.
Ace On The Line is offline  
Old July 3, 2006, 07:52 PM   #62
Senior Member
Join Date: February 20, 2005
Location: Mouth of the Rat, Florida
Posts: 1,778
I carry revolvers, and you can empty a gun pretty fast. And if you're not hitting anything, that can present a problem( remember pulp fiction?). I know that's the movies and this is real life, but I practice double taps. If two don't do it, then they get two more and so on. I think a disciplined approach is best, and practice makes perfect.
I grew up in New Jersey, but later moved to Florida and made a complete recovery.
Keltec: The BIC lighter of handguns
Jkwas is offline  
Old July 4, 2006, 11:38 PM   #63
Senior Member
Join Date: February 6, 2001
Location: California
Posts: 3,020
I was taught to shoot until the aggression has stopped.
Kermit is offline  
Old July 5, 2006, 12:11 AM   #64
Junior member
Join Date: February 18, 2005
Location: Comanche Co. Texas
Posts: 737
How many shots?

As many as it takes to down the agressor but beware the Prosecutor in court because if he is gun unfriendly or out to make a name for himself, and or there are a tribe of witnesses who hate you because you are a whatever and they are willing to lie to see you found guilty........have good lawyers and lots of money.
cuate is offline  
Old July 5, 2006, 01:43 PM   #65
Join Date: June 29, 2006
Location: Carrollton, TX
Posts: 34
IF you or another are in imminent danger of great bodily injury or death or a REASONABLE assumption can be made thereof, the best policy is "shoot to stop".

In other words: shoot till they are no longer a threat...vary your shot placement from center mass to instant no-go areas (heart, spine, brain stem...)
Raptor5191 is offline  
Old July 5, 2006, 02:07 PM   #66
Senior Member
Join Date: April 27, 2005
Location: Ft Hood area, originally CA
Posts: 268
I wouldn't even pause until he hit the ground, or ran away. Unless he's running with my property.
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend.
Thomas Jefferson
johnsonrlp is offline  
Old July 5, 2006, 02:22 PM   #67
Join Date: January 6, 2006
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 77
well personally i dont have any set training pattern nor do i go to a shooting range regularly and all of my shooting experience came form either my dad or my uncle my uncle taught me the the way he learned to shoot in the military and my dad says if they are comming in your house and they arent supposed to be there you unload on them and reload and if they are still twiching you unload on them again until all movement stops or you run out of ammunition and seeing as how im shooting .357 sjhp and just stocked back up with a box of 100 i would say the movement would stop before i run out
McBrideGuns is offline  
Old July 15, 2006, 06:22 AM   #68
Para Bellum
Senior Member
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,877
Real Life

Folks, here's some real life stuff:

a 30yr old fit and strong 5'10" male with 170# on speed storms your 15x15ft office with a knife while you are sitting at your desk focussing to our PC and are as peaceful as you can be.
He comes straigt at you and keeps stabbing onto your head until - luckily - his cheap folding knife breaks.

That happend in the room right next to mine at my workplace recently. Unfortunately I was out of office that day and couldn't help.

So what could you really do? MOVE MOVE MOVE and draw as you MOVE and keep shooting as you MOVE until the threat no longer is a threat.

How often you shoot depends on where and how you hit whom. COM hits at a young strong male on speed may be lethal but can take a long time to incapacitate. You only gain time by MOVING.

Get real.
and stay safe.
concentrated to your
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old July 17, 2006, 08:29 AM   #69
Junior Member
Join Date: July 15, 2006
Posts: 11
Double Taps

Something to think about
About fifteen years ago during a Coronial Inquest in a departmental shooting The Coroner, asked: “So officer if the threat to life stops after the first shot, why are you firing the second shot, to make sure his dead?”
The officer on the stand (not me) did not have an answer.
Double Taps have been removed from our training program ever since.
Now it’s…shoot, evaluate, shoot, evaluate, shoot, evaluate….
Winston007 is offline  
Old July 17, 2006, 11:30 AM   #70
Senior Member
Join Date: March 28, 2000
Posts: 4,055
.Some people tell me that you should shoot in pairs, not one at a time...if attacked...
The training that I received at LFI, Sigarms Academy, and Cumberland Tactics is to keep shooting until the attack stops. Never expect a single shot to stop the attack immediately -- this isn't Hollyweird. Even if you shoot someone directly in the heart, they may still have enough oxygen in their brain to be functional for 10-15 seconds.

Ayoob suggested two shots to the chest and if the threat is still there, to shift to the head or possibly pelvis.
M1911 is offline  
Old July 17, 2006, 12:21 PM   #71
Capt. Charlie
Join Date: March 24, 2005
Location: Steubenville, OH
Posts: 4,436
The officer on the stand (not me) did not have an answer.
Double Taps have been removed from our training program ever since.
As our range officer explained it, there is a sound, physiological reason for the double tap. A single, penetrating wound causes the body's defenses to rally. Adrenalin flows and nerve endings in the affected area are shut down, allowing the person to continue fighting.

A double tap confuses the body's response; defenses are split between the two wounds and become inadequate, and the body goes into shock.

Does it work? Analysis of actual shootings suggests.... sometimes .

My department began teaching the double tap approx. 15 years ago, and it remains an important part of our training.

One other thing: When you're being grilled on the stand about your actions, the best response is often, "I acted the way I was trained". This shifts the focus to your department and instructors.
TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does your post make you?

I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do.

--Capt. Charlie
Capt. Charlie is offline  
Old July 17, 2006, 05:36 PM   #72
Join Date: November 21, 2005
Posts: 56
I'd recommend using as little force as possible, especially if the would-be assailant is unarmed----neutralize the threat, but you dont have to personally ensure a meeting with Jesus by emptying your magazine into him......2 or 3 rounds and reassess the threat---more only if necessary. Save some ammo for his buddies around the corner.

As crazy as this sounds, after you have neutralized the threat, make sure in addition to requesting police you request EMTs......this way, if you are ever on the defense side of a courtroom, you can say you shot to neutralize the threat and then immediately sought medical help for your jury in the world would convict you of excessive force.

Of course if you put 14 rounds, reload and put a few more in him, then douse him in gasoline and light him up to toast marshmellows til the police arrive you might have some legal problems.
EMB135Driver is offline  
Old July 18, 2006, 12:59 AM   #73
Join Date: July 13, 2006
Posts: 51
As someone who works for and was trained by a large federal law enforcement agency that is VERY politically correct in its firearms policies, we are trained to shoot till the threat has stopped. When that adrenaline is rushing, no one is counting bullets and when you revert to gross motor skills, you do what has been ingrained in you at training. Shooting 2 rounds and then stopping to assess the situation could get you killed. I think that was something taught years ago but most agencies have realized that it is not practical anymore.
symr00 is offline  
Old July 20, 2006, 12:25 AM   #74
Senior Member
Join Date: July 9, 2006
Location: Around north Houston
Posts: 287
Doubletap is a great way to learn gun control and keeping em' in the target. It's easy to do with semis but rather difficult with a revolver (for me) I can do it with my Ak or Ar 15.
As far as for defense, empty it in em', reload, and try to find cover at the same time.
Double tapping is a training device for some orginazations.
All that 2 in the chest and one in the head stuff(as far as civilians go) is for Rambo magnum brained idiots who try to be cool. Do what works for you.
Don't believe the hype!!!
Doubletaptap is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:30 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent:
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11296 seconds with 8 queries