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Old January 29, 2019, 02:34 PM   #51
Cheapshooter
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Just silly YT abuse videos
Those "silly" youtube tests aren't done on a Sig, or any other "approved" brand because they know it wouldn't last past the first one!
I am neither knocking Sig (#1 for my IWB carry is a P320 Carry), no claiming that a Hi-Point is a superior weapon. Just that they are not the total junk that some insist. They have a place as an affordable pistol for those that for various reasons don't want to, or aren't able to pay more.
Do I recommend one to someone I know can afgord more for a first gun? No. Will they do the job for someone who can't pay more, absolutely.
I think I mentioned earlier that I bought a new C9 just to see if they could possibly be as bad as some claimed. Then was very supprised how accurate, and reliable they actually are.
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Old January 29, 2019, 02:41 PM   #52
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I completely agree with Glenn and Cheapshooter. The difference in price of a higher end pistol and a Hi-Point is insignificant to many here. For those who live on edge of survival, that difference may determine whether a self defense handgun is available. TunnelRat $90 is a lot of money if you don't have it.

I see/hear people all the time criticizing poor folks for not taking advantage of all of the wonderful gun and ammo opportunities that depend on having cash readily available. While buying smart is a great practice at all economic levels, there are many who are just trying to live from day to day. Most of us have no idea of that struggle.

Many of these people live in areas where poverty and violence are endemic. The need for a self defense weapon is very real. Hi-Point offers a decent firearm at a good price to people of every socioeconomic status. I think that is as American as apple pie.
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Old January 29, 2019, 03:00 PM   #53
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I completely agree with Glenn and Cheapshooter. The difference in price of a higher end pistol and a Hi-Point is insignificant to many here. For those who live on edge of survival, that difference may determine whether a self defense handgun is available. TunnelRat $90 is a lot of money if you don't have it.



I see/hear people all the time criticizing poor folks for not taking advantage of all of the wonderful gun and ammo opportunities that depend on having cash readily available. While buying smart is a great practice at all economic levels, there are many who are just trying to live from day to day. Most of us have no idea of that struggle.



Many of these people live in areas where poverty and violence are endemic. The need for a self defense weapon is very real. Hi-Point offers a decent firearm at a good price to people of every socioeconomic status. I think that is as American as apple pie.
Nothing I have said criticizes people of different means than myself. What I do is make points about cost as they relate to the differences between Hi Points and other firearms and the cost of firearms over time. I honestly think some people are reading a lot more into what has been said than was there to begin with.

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Old January 29, 2019, 03:08 PM   #54
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TunnelRat my use of your $90 was just to make the point that value and cost of ownership are often secondary to urgency and necessity. I mean no disrespect.
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Old January 29, 2019, 03:36 PM   #55
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Fair enough and understood.

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Old January 29, 2019, 04:15 PM   #56
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Then there are those....

Try having health issues, and affordability. Someone making six figures is generally considered to be making a decent living.

I know of such a person, they brought their prescription to the pharmacist to fill. Surprise, the cost for one prescription.....4,100.00

My point in keeping with the thread is there are fairly high income individuals who barely survive due to medical costs.

It ain't how much you make, it's how much you get to keep. So you order your meds from Canada, where the above prescription costs....410.00 dollars. Ya 410.00 bucks a month beats 4,100.00 bucks a month. It still puts a real crimp in your style to have that med expense monthly.

Sorry for the thread drift, point being you can be making a nice living and still be poor. Insurance is of little help when they deem a drug as experimental. They pay nothing on many drugs that save lives.
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Old January 29, 2019, 04:55 PM   #57
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the cost of firearms over time.
Over time being the fatal flaw in this line of thinking. Amortization being completely foreign to the economics of someone just barely getting by.
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Old January 29, 2019, 05:53 PM   #58
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Over time being the fatal flaw in this line of thinking. Amortization being completely foreign to the economics of someone just barely getting by.
I don't see pointing it out as a fatal flaw. Cost over time is something all of us need to keep in mind, it's not just a concern of the wealthy.

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Old January 29, 2019, 06:09 PM   #59
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If the gun is to be used only in the rare emergency and not used for practice/competition, the cost over time is irrevelant as compared to the initial cost.
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Old January 29, 2019, 07:17 PM   #60
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If the gun is to be used only in the rare emergency and not used for practice/competition, the cost over time is irrevelant as compared to the initial cost.
Then that still ignores the differences in features for the price (whether those differences matter to the end user is certainly a question, but the differences remain). As for purchasing the pistol and then never practicing with it, I have comments on that above.

Again, my whole argument has been yes a Hi Point works and works better than many expect, but saying it is as good as other more expensive options seems a bit of an oversell to me. I'm a bit at a loss as to how that's an unreasonable argument. Nothing I have said says that Hi Points are terrible and that people that can't afford more aren't worth considering or shouldn't be allowed to have them (despite some comments above).

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Old January 29, 2019, 07:48 PM   #61
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The whole argument centers around understanding Voltaire:

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Perfect is the enemy of good, or more literally the best is the enemy of the good, is an aphorism which is commonly attributed to Voltaire, who quoted an Italian proverb in his Dictionnaire philosophique in 1770: "Le meglio è l'inimico del bene"
No one is arguing that they are better than a single stack original Sig P210 for many thousands of dollars.

They are for poorer folks who keep it for emergencies. The training issue is a red herring even for those who buy the expensive guns, most don't train or practice.

Karl Rehn calls those who train the 1% as that is about all that do:
http://blog.krtraining.com/beyond-th...ercent-part-1/

So, there's really no argument unless you want to push ignoring the purpose of the gun.
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Old January 29, 2019, 07:52 PM   #62
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I'd argue that there do in fact seem to be people in this thread arguing that a Hi Point is as good or better than pistols that costs hundreds more, which I why I made my argument and phrased it as such. While I love reading Voltaire, I don't agree this is a situation of ignoring what's good while pining for perfection. I've made idk how many comments now acknowledging the limitations of certain budgets and saying I understand why someone would buy a Hi Point. I'm beginning to think some people on this thread are being deliberately obtuse. And here I thought Glock fans were obnoxious. Now I know.

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Old January 29, 2019, 08:01 PM   #63
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Well, if the choice was a Hi-point that ran out of the box vs. my Glock 42 that jammed solid from the box and when unjammed proceeded to fire out of battery (scaring the whatever out of me), I would be in a philosophical mental breakdown.

My position is clear - just a gun that usually runs for poor people. Listening to folks talking about the problems some departments had with new FN guns - all guns can be a crap shoot (even if from fancy pants companies).
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Old January 29, 2019, 08:04 PM   #64
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Obviously a functioning firearm is preferable to one that isn't. Talk about your red herrings.

I've had my share of lemons from a number of companies, and many of my threads are about them. I have no issue with Hi Points. The issue seems to be that I won't praise them and the fans of them seem to find this objectionable.

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Old January 29, 2019, 08:41 PM   #65
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Love shooting my guns,,,My Beretta 92F is great,,, and my HiPoint 45acp is fun also......
I have introduced some new shooters, whose hubs always want them to get bigger than they can handle,,,,the 45 acp Hipoint,,, it’s weight tones down the recoil, and then they end up with a 380;
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Old January 29, 2019, 11:23 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by TunnelRat View Post
Because sometimes there are differences between the tools. I don't have anything against Hi Points or the people that buy them. They are not, in my experience, as reliable as other firearms. That has more to do with the magazines than the action. There is also the fact that for the size and weight you're not getting much capacity. As others have pointed out, there are some options that aren't that much more.

There's a line between recognizing that something works and not being willing to recognize its limitations.

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Whether it is a gun or a wrench, there is a difference in the tools. But the question is whether or not the difference matters for the purpose it was bought. If you need a gun to sit in your nightstand for home protection, a Hi-Point will do the same job as another gun that costs many times more than it does. Besides, if the police takes your gun as evidence, I would rather they have my Hi-Point than a very expensive handgun. Hi-Points are reliable and accurate at self defense distances and the ugly and heavy thing will not be seen by anyone else. I have friends that bought Snap-on tools they used for decades in their work and they have been happy with them but I'm still using the 3/8" ratchet and metric sockets I got for Christmas in 1965 when I was in high school. Sears replaced the ratchet about 40 years ago with their lifetime warranty (that is probably dying at any time).
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Old January 30, 2019, 12:47 AM   #67
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Those "silly" youtube tests aren't done on a Sig, or any other "approved" brand because they know it wouldn't last past the first one!
If you can't find torture tests of any pistols other than Hi-Points on youtube, you aren't looking nearly hard enough. There are lots of them. Sometimes the guns pass, sometimes they don't.
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The issue seems to be that I won't praise them and the fans of them seem to find this objectionable.
Interesting world we live in these days. It's not enough to acknowledge that people should be able to do whatever they want, live whatever life they choose, buy whatever they want. If you don't EMBRACE and ENDORSE their choices as amazing and wonderful, you're a bad person.
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Old January 30, 2019, 07:46 AM   #68
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Whether it is a gun or a wrench, there is a difference in the tools. But the question is whether or not the difference matters for the purpose it was bought. If you need a gun to sit in your nightstand for home protection, a Hi-Point will do the same job as another gun that costs many times more than it does. Besides, if the police takes your gun as evidence, I would rather they have my Hi-Point than a very expensive handgun. Hi-Points are reliable and accurate at self defense distances and the ugly and heavy thing will not be seen by anyone else. I have friends that bought Snap-on tools they used for decades in their work and they have been happy with them but I'm still using the 3/8" ratchet and metric sockets I got for Christmas in 1965 when I was in high school. Sears replaced the ratchet about 40 years ago with their lifetime warranty (that is probably dying at any time).
I'm aware that different users have different needs. I myself don't own Snap On tools. I don't completely agree with your metaphor. The differences here aren't just in durability. Trigger, sights, ergonomics, recoil impulse, size, capacity, these are all areas where other pistols have an advantage. These are all aspects of a pistol that could certainly influence your successful use of the firearm. I wouldn't personally call Hi Points the Craftsman of the gun world, not in both reputation and in pricing relative to the rest of the market. Again that doesn't make Hi Points bad. A company that is willing to replace a product should it fail is great. The problem is this isn't a wrench, it's a firearm. If my wrench breaks while I'm using it, it's an annoying day of driving to Sears and back. If my firearm breaks while using it I may be dead and the ability to replace it isn't of much comfort. To be clear, I am NOT stating that using a Hi Point will result in imminent death. I'm pointing out the flaws in the metaphor.

As for police confiscation after a defensive use of a firearm, we've discussed this here before. Every year I have to pay X amount for various forms of insurance. To me a firearm is a form of insurance. In the event I have to discharge a firearm at another human being and potentially injure or kill that person, I am confident in saying that compared to the mental and potential financial aftermath (depending on the circumstances and your state's laws on defense), the loss of that firearm is not a primary concern. Is that because I'm just so wealthy? No, it's because I have a lot more on my table at that point.

If someone is convinced that firearms A and B perform equally for him or her and one is less money to replace, then to me it's logical to use the cheaper one. However, if a person owns multiple firearms, does notably better with one firearm or feels notably more confident with one firearm, and specifically carries or uses the cheaper one just because of the prospect of confiscation after the fact, I think that person is doing himself or herself a disservice (and I apply the same argument for buying a pistol, of course acknowledging budget limitations). And yes it's still your right to do so.

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Old January 30, 2019, 10:01 AM   #69
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I have no issue with Hi Points. The issue seems to be that I won't praise them and the fans of them seem to find this objectionable.
This. ^

Of course this line of thought is all too prevalent on these boards (and the world at large as well).
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Old January 30, 2019, 10:40 AM   #70
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I have no issue with Hi Points. The issue seems to be that I won't praise them and the fans of them seem to find this objectionable.
Though I haven't commented on this thread until now, I'm detecting the same thing. No one has said that hi-points are garbage or dangerous, or don't work. Some have said that for a extra hundred dollars (and in cases less), they can have pistol that is much smaller, more concealable, has higher capacity, weighs less, has a better trigger, and has more accessory options (Sights, holsters, and magazines... these are options out there for hi-point, but not as many). And these differences are not small differences. The size and weight difference between a hi-point C9 and a S&W shield are quite extreme as well. That extra money gets you a LOT of dividends in CCH ease. The ones who state this often preface the statement that they understand why some families who have less disposable income would go for a hi-point over another pistol.

I have held and shot hi-points. They go bang. They will hit the target. They are cheap. They are not at all elegant in doing the aforementioned things. The trigger is not good. They are heavy. Trying to conceal one requires a certain dress (it can be done). Magazine capacity is limited. And... they just don't look good. Pointing out these things, and saying many will likely prefer to spend a little more money for a tool that is more ergonomic, lighter, has a higher capacity, and a better trigger, does not make the messenger reporting this fact a bad person.

Case in point. The cheapest winter coat from Wal-Mart might work, keep you warm, and even may be durable... but few here will argue that it's preferable to a Carhart or other quality brand coat that may cost a little more.
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Old January 30, 2019, 11:12 AM   #71
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I do not have a Hi-Point (yet).

I really do not need a better gun for the home defense role, but if I were to get one, I have read enough fact based assessments to know that the 9mm is not as reliable for one hit stops as something bigger. If I see a used 40 S&W or 45 acp Hi-Point, I expect I will buy it.

The Hi-Point is not a good option for carry, but that is pretty obvious. I do not and will not carry a gun. I also do not have a problem holding a 35 ounce gun steady when shooting. Having a 40 or 45 that is on the heavy side will certainly not be a problem when shooting at the range. It also would be more of a help than a hindrance for the home defense role.

I do not have any concern over magazine capacity. I normally consider my revolvers as "good enough". If I need more than 10 rounds of 40, I will be in a situation far, far beyond anything I currently consider as needing to plan for.

For my use, the biggest concern I have is that is that I will dislike the trigger more than I currently expect. I really do not like the trigger on most of the autos I have fired, but have learned to tolerate them.

Beyond all of the above, my biggest reason for getting one would be to have another "fun to shoot" gun with more wallop than a 9mm. I can afford to pay more, but for me I just do not see any reason to. It would score good on my fun per $ meter as I spend for my hobby.
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Old January 30, 2019, 12:42 PM   #72
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This is just going around in increasing useless circles.

May you never be in extreme financial difficulty.

Closed.
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