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Old December 1, 2006, 11:25 PM   #1
oldbillthundercheif
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"Destructive Devices" and Duds

So from what I understand, there are many fine Americans out there with "Destructive Devices" (40mm grenade launchers, light artillary, ect...). What do these folks do when their expensive, individually-registered shells fail to go "bang"?

It would seem like the EOD would not be particularly happy to deal with such a situation. Do these folks invest in armored suits and scoop up the duds themselves?

I have not been able to make it out to a festival of fun like Knob Creek, but it seems like this sort of thing would happen yearly, if not several times per "shoot".
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Old December 2, 2006, 08:42 AM   #2
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It would seem to me that at $200 a pop just for the tax on a HE round would be enough to turn people off from buying them. Then you have to figure that no manufacturers would be willing to sell them ( which they don't ). Anyway, the DD's out there like the 40mm launchers, are pretty much always fired with chalk or smoke rounds because these are readily available. There are adapter shells for the 40mm that have 12 .22lr caliber chambers and barrels, that when used in the 40mm launcher, fire all 12 bullets simultaneously. I think these are called 'hornets nests'. One more option is an adapter that fires a single 12ga shell from the 40mm launcher. But, I believe that you are correct in stating that if someone actually did fire a HE 40mm round and it failed to explode, you would soon be in the company of some very pissed-off EOD guys...
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Old December 4, 2006, 07:55 PM   #3
C Philip
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If that happened to me:
1. I'd be rather unhappy.
2. I would bring out a big rifle and just shoot at where the thing landed to get it to go off rather than messing with calling EOD.
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Old December 4, 2006, 09:55 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C Philip
I would bring out a big rifle and just shoot at where the thing landed
That may well be exactly what EOD would do. They utilize the M82a1 for just such work...
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Old December 5, 2006, 02:33 AM   #5
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I shoot dud 22 rounds sometimes. Line them up against a steel plate downrange. They make a nice pop if you hit them right. Be sure to be far enough away when you do it though.

For me, even if I could only shoot chalk or smoke it would be a blast. I wonder if one could make a 40mm round that shot confetti instead of a round. Imagine that at the Knob Creek opening ceremonies. Even better, load a 40mm superball and fire that. Imagine how far that would bounce if you launched it in an empty parking garage.
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Old December 5, 2006, 08:16 AM   #6
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hmmmm..... Confetti or a superball.....hmmmm........... Now that would be a real good time. I imagine either would be possible, I know those shells are re-loadable.
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Old December 5, 2006, 02:19 PM   #7
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I don't think I would want to share a parking garage with a high-velocity superball. I would watch it on video, though, if y'all want try it out.
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Old December 5, 2006, 03:31 PM   #8
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you provide the M79 or M203 and I'll do a field-research paper on it
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Old December 5, 2006, 03:57 PM   #9
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Every good research paper like that needs an able assistant/camera man to film from the confines of a lexan box... I'm there for ya, blue.
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Old December 5, 2006, 08:13 PM   #10
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Well, I guess I better get ahold of LMT and get that '203 on order...
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Old December 5, 2006, 08:27 PM   #11
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And look on the bright side---If something goes awry, Darwin nominations always pack more weight when there are witness accounts and video! And I've always wondered how entertaining a bucket full of superballs into a large parking lot from a trebuchette might be... Oh, there's no end to what could be done. I wonder if there's grant money out there for it? LOL
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Old December 5, 2006, 11:02 PM   #12
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I don't mean to sound like an anti here, but what purpose would a civilian need for an exploding (frag) 40mm? If explosions is what you want there's always Tannerite. There's them civilian 37mm launchers out there that riot police use and they got all sorts off cool rounds from flares to bird bombs.
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Old December 6, 2006, 02:38 AM   #13
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Quote:
I don't mean to sound like an anti here, but what purpose would a civilian need for an exploding (frag) 40mm? If explosions is what you want there's always Tannerite. There's them civilian 37mm launchers out there that riot police use and they got all sorts off cool rounds from flares to bird bombs.
Because they want to. If someone wants to pay the money and is willing to meet all legal requirements then what's the problem? If you start there then where will it end? People don't "need" machineguns, people don't need service rifles, people don't need rifles over .22, people don't need firearms period. See where it would go?
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Old December 6, 2006, 03:33 AM   #14
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Besides---this is all for scientific reason... OK, so maybe it's not in the least.
Why have a 40mm launcher and live HE to put through it? Call it an adult version of a kid with an M-80 and a coffee can full of water---it looks fun, lets try it. If a rational, responsible person can do it legally and safely, that's all the reason necessary.
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Old December 6, 2006, 04:09 AM   #15
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Plus 40mm frag gernades are usefull for when you REALLY want that Wasp nest gone. There, I just gave a "sporting purpose" use for 40mm gernade launchers. Does this mean that we can get them taken off the DD list?
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Old December 6, 2006, 06:03 PM   #16
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Actually the 203 isn't on the list.
From the ATF page:

Quote:
(M28) Are grenade and rocket launcher attachments destructive devices?

Grenade and rocket launcher attachments for use on military type rifles generally do not come within the definition of destructive devices. However, the grenades and rockets used in these devices are generally within the definition.

[26 U.S.C. 5845, 27 CFR 479.11]
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Old December 6, 2006, 07:27 PM   #17
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The launchers are DD's not AOW's. So is the ammunition used therein.

The definition of a "destructive device" is found in Title 26, United States Code, in section 5845(f).
Quote:
Any weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes
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Old December 6, 2006, 11:32 PM   #18
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Hey, it says that shotguns aren't considered DDs right? So why not just buy lots of HE 12 gauge slugs and not have to spend the extra expense on a 40mm launcher. I'm sure there's exploding slugs out there. I've seen and used them 12 gauge bird bombs. Only difference would be it being loaded with composite B instead of flashpowder.
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Old December 7, 2006, 12:55 AM   #19
mxwelch
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Quote:
The launchers are DD's not AOW's. So is the ammunition used therein.
Maybe the key word is "attachments" I'll try and find out about a M79, which I'm sure is a DD.

Then again the more I read the more I believe I'm wrong, the 203s are classified as DDs. Nothing like the ATF being forked tounged when it comes to definitions...
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Old December 7, 2006, 01:04 AM   #20
oldbillthundercheif
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Hey Maser, do you mean something like this?

As far as I know, these fin-stabilized, shaped-charge 12ga HE rounds are not going to hit the civilian market anytime soon, but they sure are nasty-looking.

I wonder if they have enough explosive in them to be regulated...
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Old December 7, 2006, 01:46 AM   #21
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Oh wow! Them things got me drooling now. I know how a shaped charge works and those don't need much explosive to be effective. None the less, them finned slugs look pretty awsome.
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Old December 7, 2006, 10:06 AM   #22
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From your earlier post, it would seem that the attachments like the M203 would not be DD's, but I assure you that there are tons of people out there (and lots on ARFCOM) that are paying the $200 stamp and getting these things registered as DD's. The definition I gave would support this.


damned forked tongues.......
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Old December 8, 2006, 02:38 AM   #23
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Quote:
From your earlier post, it would seem that the attachments like the M203 would not be DD's, but I assure you that there are tons of people out there (and lots on ARFCOM) that are paying the $200 stamp and getting these things registered as DD's. The definition I gave would support this.


damned forked tongues.......
Yep, that is what it seems like. I've never witnessed one for sale that didn't require a form 4 so that proves you correct as far as I'm concerned.
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