Witness Limited Pro

[Areoflyer09]

I recently traded a built SA LW Champion .45 for EAA Witness Limited Pro in 10mm. I wasn't 100% on the Witness, but the Champion size wasn't my favorite. I obtained that through a trade as well and discovered that I like my 1911s to be Gov size.

This has been my first experience with a CZ or CZ clone and with 10mm. After the first trip to the range. I can see why people love the CZs & clones and the 10mm. The frame, while large, is very natural feeling. And the noise, recoil & concussion from the 10 is just plain fun.

The previous owner polished up the internals and a few other minor upgrades. It's ended up with a DA pull in the 6-7lb range and the SA is in the 3-4lb range. The pull for big is silky smooth and clean break. I'm quite pleased with how it is currently. It had roughly 450rds through when I got it and I've put another 75 through it since then. I'd like to go shoot it more, but 10mm gets expensive fast. This may be the gun that pushes me into reloading.

Overall, just a gorgeous pistol that I wanted to share.

http://imgur.com/R5rzrJX

http://imgur.com/RAXPEBi

Edit: tried to get the pictures to show correctly, but they were too large.

[wild cat mccane]

For your knowledge, the Witness is not a pure clone of the CZ. The Witness has several real upgrades to the CZ design including a different trigger system. I'll look around for it, but the trigger change in the Witness has a name-named after a person. It is not just different, it is better.

[Areoflyer09]

I've read that Tanfoglio made changes, but I openly admit it's not something I know much about. I know they follow the CZ vein, but I don't know the changes they made. I recall reading that the Witness was a better design, but without more details it was just a detail without clarification.

I found lots of good threads on the Brian Enos forum from the competition shooters, but they focus on cleaning things up in prep for comps more than the history side of things.

I enjoyed the Witness enough to stop by the LGS and check out the CZ75s. If the cash was available, I would have left with a CZ75 B Omega or the CZ75 SP-01 they had.

[Skans]

I have the original Witness Stock (some call it the Stock I) in 10mm, which is essentially the same gun you have. They changed the names for some reasons, but the features are basically the same. It's my favorite gun to shoot bowling pins. Large capacity, powerful, smooth and very accurate. Yes, it has the nicest DA/SA trigger I've experienced.

[Areoflyer09]

I've been pleasantly surprised with how gentle the recoil is compared to the .45 I've had/shot. I expected the 10s to be worse than they are.

I was given ~80 handloaded rounds with the gun and you can feel the extra oomph compared to the Sellier & Bellot factory loads I've bought. I don't know the FPS of the handloads, but the S&B is rated at 1164FPS, so it's north of that. With either of them is more like a strong push than a sharp kick. The 45s in the LW Champion had more snap to them than push.

[kmw1954]

Nice! I have been thinking my next move will be to a 40 or 45 in either a 1911 model or a Witness. A couple months ago I purchased a Witness Pavona in 380acp and so far I love shooing it. Would love to try this gun in 9mm.

I do reload and can really customize the ammo to the gun not to mention that the price of factory 380 is stupid and I can reload for about 1/3 the cost.

[Skans]

I prefer my Witness Stock over the 1911 format. Twice the capacity as a 1911, DA/SA with a really good trigger in SA mode (good in DA mode too). No, it is not quite as perfect as a tuned 1911 trigger but then again it's DA/SA. If you just have to have that 1911 trigger, then go with a 1911. I too would like to have a Witness Limited Pro (or older Stock) in 9mm. At $823, the 9mm version is a bit expensive for me.

[Areoflyer09]

I'd be torn if I had to choose between my Witness and my Range Officer (9mm), probably best to have them both.

If I was out looking to buy a Witness new, I'd look for a Hunter. 6" barrel, completion frame, 6" barrel & comes in 45 or 10mm.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane

For your knowledge, the Witness is not a pure clone of the CZ. The Witness has several real upgrades to the CZ design including a different trigger system. I'll look around for it, but the trigger change in the Witness has a name-named after a person. It is not just different, it is better.

The CZ-pattern guns made in Turkey and Israel all started as Tanfoglio-made guns, assembled in Israel and Turkey, but those companies later bought rights to make their own versions. (At least one importer [TATCO?] did the same, and assembled them in Czechoslovakia (or the Check Republic), which allowed them to call the guns CZs, too!) The original AT-84, made in Switzerland, was a true clone, as were a number of guns made in England. The later AT-84s was based on the Tanfoglio version.

wild cat mccane seems to know his CZ stuff, so I may be in error in a couple of my comments below. I have not, for example, heard about a Tanfoglio trigger-system change. If that system is new and better, I'll stand corrected on that point, and I'll try to find out more. (I haven't bought a NEW version of either design in a long time.)

With the guns I've owned, and a I've owned quite a few of both (including both frame sizes) the ONLY significant difference between the CZ design and the Tanfoglio CZ-pattern gun (which is called Witness by EAA) was the firing pin block design. The older Tanfoglio firing pin block design is subtly different from the CZ design used in the hammer-fired guns and IS arguably better (in that it interferes less as the trigger is pulled). The CZ firing pin block mechanism can be polished and made less obtrusive. Tanfoglio also eventually changed the hammer spring design on it's newer models, and did away with the magazine brake. Some of the Tanfoglio changes may have been as much done to lower production costs as to improve performance.

As wild cat mccane notes, these guns are not clones: about the only parts that are interchangeable are the magazines for a given frame size! CZ has a new trigger design, called the Omega system, which is simpler than the original CZ design, and which allows the users to easily/quickly convert from decocker to safety, or vice versa. CZ has also introduced a new striker-fired P-10c, which is getting very good reviews. I suspect that polymer frames and strikers will be the focus of new CZ models.

The new Tanfoglio-based CZ pattern guns (sold by EAA as Witness guns) are all now based on the newer Tanfoglio large-frame design, which is noticeably smaller through the grip than the frame CZ uses for the CZ-97. (I have no experience with the other CZ large-frame models -- their guns designed for IPSC and USPSA -- they may also be subtly smaller through the grip than the CZ-97.)

Tanfoglio makes a very good gun. Problems, where they exist, have more to do with EAA customer service in support of the Witness guns than the guns or their design. CZ makes a very good gun, too. In the various models I've owned, the Tanfoglio-made guns generally had better triggers out of the box -- but a couple of hundred rounds later, the difference is hard to notice.

.

[floydster]

I have a Witness Elite Match in 38 super and 45 ACP., these are my Steel plate guns and have been running them for the last four years with my CZ 75's.
I have Easley 15,000 rounds thru each of these guns, changed the recoil spring on the super once, great guns.
Smokey loads

[rt11002003]

I just picked up a new CZ 97b, the 45ACP safety version. For awhile, I shot a CZ75 SP-01 Shadow Target II. I shoot a Witness Elite Limited 9mm frequently. Had a Sphinz 9mm compact and a Grand Power X-Caliber 9mm for several months. The barrel for the X-Caliber was made by CZ. To my uneducated eye all those guns looked the same until I really looked closely. From what I make out very few parts, if any, are interchangeable.

They all worked well. I hated the field stripping of X-Caliber. The Witness has a Henning straight trigger which I installed, that made it a much smoother gun IMO. The 97b needs some help. I'm not strong enough to pull the DA more than a few times; the SA is heavier than I like. But, I like 2 pound triggers. :-)

[tallball]

I own dozens of semi-automatic center-fire pistols. My favorites are my Tanfoglio Witnesses in 9mm, 40 caliber, and 45acp.

My shooting buddy owns a nice CZ75. It is a good pistol. But he and I agree that the "ergonomics" and triggers of the Witnesses are better.

[Areoflyer09]

I'd like to try a CZ75. The smaller frame actually fits my hands better for size. The SP-01 I held at the LGS felt really nice, but it didn't feel like it was worth the $700 price tags on it. The Witness excels at that point, feeling like it's worth more than it costs.

Are there any Witneses with smaller frames?

[mmb713]

I have the original Witness Stock (some call it the Stock I) in 10mm, which is essentially the same gun you have. They changed the names for some reasons, but the features are basically the same.

The Limited Pro and Stock 1 are similar but not essentially the same. The Limited Pro is built on the competition frame and the Stock 1 is built on the standard frame. The Limited Pro has a 4.75" standard match grade barrel and the Stock 1 has a 4.5" cone lock barrel. The Limited Pro comes standard with ambidextrous safety and the Stock 1 does not. The Limited Pro comes with the Super Sight and the Stock 1 comes with the LPA sight. Both are more accurate than I am with some of the best SA/DA triggers on the market. You can't go wrong with either and you definitely won't go wrong with both.

https://imgur.com/gallery/bSyef

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by rt11002003

...The 97b needs some help. I'm not strong enough to pull the DA more than a few times; the SA is heavier than I like. But, I like 2 pound triggers. :-)

The solution for your 97B may be as simple as a new hammer spring (from CZ, since Wolff doesn't seem to offer one for the 97B), with a coil or two cut off.) Henning may have some of the older-style hammer springs for the .45 Witness or Tanfoglio guns, and they MIGHT work. You might talk to David Milam at Cajun Gun Works to see what he suggests; he's an expert when it comes to the 97B, and he may have parts in stock that will fix the trigger for you.

I didn't have that problem with my 97B, but I preferred a Witness Sport Long Slide I had at the time, which seems similar to (but was much older than) the Limited Pro. (I don't have any specs or info on that long-since-gone model, but it was pretty nice after some internal polishing. [Surprisingly, polishing the trigger bar had a profound effect on ligthening the trigger weight -- it was rubbing against the frame!) The Sport Long Slide came in both frame sizes, and I had examples of both at different times.

I didn't keep the 97B long enough to worry about it, as it was just a bit bigger (grip size) than I found comfortable. The ASAI One Pro, (also .45) which is based on the Tanfoglio version had the slickest, lightest DA/SA trigger I've ever found in a NIB gun -- it was so light, it scared me. I now know the solution was to just find a slightly heaver hammer spring, but that was years ago, and I've learned a few things since then.