The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old August 21, 2017, 07:58 PM   #26
lamarw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2010
Location: Lake Martin, AL
Posts: 3,311
WD-40 could be the cause. In the event he sprayed it on an open revolver cylinder or a loaded pistol magazine with rounds loaded, then the WD-40 could of killed the primers over time.
lamarw is offline  
Old August 21, 2017, 08:42 PM   #27
Oldman11
Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2016
Posts: 77
I have two boxs 45/70 that's at least 75 years old,it's the old two piece box,shoots like it's supposed to. One box is black powder and one smokeless
Oldman11 is offline  
Old August 21, 2017, 10:59 PM   #28
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,675
The longevity of ammunition depends on two things, the quality with which it was originally prepared, and the storage conditions is has lived through, since.

During the early 1970s, I fired a quantity of 1918 US military ammo, both .30-06 and .45 ACP. The cases were a dark brown. There was no visible corrosion.

ALL fired normally. NO case failures. Had some Israeli stuff made 79-80 that had 7% fail to fire and 11% of the fired brass was cracked.

I have some 1897 6.5x55 Swede ammo that has some of the brass cracked at the shoulder, some 100+ years after being packaged on stripper clips. Most likely due to powder degradation.

And, its a fact, that while black powder is incredibly stable inside loaded rounds, smokless is not. Some is, some isn't.

Even with proper storage conditions, it is POSSIBLE for the powder to breakdown, releasing nitric acid fumes, which attack the brass, and in extreme cases cause it to crack.

How long does this take?? no one knows with certainty, because of the differences in powders used and the way they are made. Some last a century and more, some go bad in a few decades. Storage conditions absolutely play a big part in this as well.

Modern militaries don't bother to test old ammo to see if it is still good, they just go by a pre determined date, and sell off anything too old.

I have reloads that I made, with no special care taken for longevity, going on 40+ years old now. Last time I shot any of them, performance was identical to what they did when "new".

I've got a few hundred rounds of "Tet offensive" ammo for my M14 (M1A) in an ammo can. I have complete confidence in the LC65 headstamped ammo working perfectly when/if I ever need it.

Sometimes, you do get ammo that doesn't last. It happens. Of course, you won't know it until after the fact. Decades of proper storage doesn't worry me, at all.

Unknowns do.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old August 22, 2017, 08:07 AM   #29
243winxb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 1,730
Ten (10)l years.

Last edited by 243winxb; August 22, 2017 at 08:12 AM.
243winxb is offline  
Old August 22, 2017, 06:40 PM   #30
kenny53
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 30, 2015
Location: My back yard
Posts: 971
Had some shotgun shells been sitting in my garage for well over 10 years. Temperatures ranging from below zero to well over 100 degrees. Took it out to the desert today and it worked perfect.
kenny53 is offline  
Old August 23, 2017, 09:22 AM   #31
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,675
Thank you for that link 243winxb.

Going to the SAAMI site helped me lose what little respect for them that I had still remaining...and no, that's not a joke.

If you found them stating ammo shelf life was 10 years, I bow my head to your search skills, being much better than mine. I waded though dozens of pages, finding nothing relevant to the shelf life question, before giving up, disgusted.

For me, it was like "the answer you seek is on the second from the bottom branch of a maple tree. Here's a roadmap, showing how to get to the forest..."


Wandering lost in those woods was, however, an enlightening experience....

I have no doubt that a shelf life/storage life of 10 years is something that SAAMI would recommend.

In my opinion, SAAMI seems to be about 2 things first and foremost. #1 safety, and #2 what is best for SAAMI and its members. And, I am not certain about which order those two are placed in....

I believe SAAMI would recommend a shelf life of 90 days, IF they thought they could get the public to accept it...
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old August 24, 2017, 01:49 PM   #32
rpseraph
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2015
Location: MinneSNOWta
Posts: 454
I am pre-mid life, so I don't have any ammo that is too old... but I've never had any issues. I had some pretty gross 22 that sat in my car, then my garage, then I found it and it was 100%. I wouldn't trust old crusty ammo with my life, but I feel just fine shooting it on the range!
rpseraph is offline  
Old August 24, 2017, 03:34 PM   #33
TailGator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,786
Quote:
just lightly oiled, not enough to get in the primer, his room did get lots of humidity and since he was a heavy smoker and left the bathroom window cracked open most of time even during winter.

he may have sprayed a little WD40 on it and wiped it off once a year
mr bolo: I'm a little surprised. Like someone else said, maybe the WD40 was the problem. Glad he didn't have to use it defensively. The reason I asked was that my dad would oil his revolver quite heavily and then wrap it in an oil-soaked rag on the shelf. I always worried about the ammo, but it ignited every time, even under conditions that I considered less than ideal. Sounds like your dad and mine were two peas in a pod in that way.
TailGator is offline  
Old August 27, 2017, 03:25 AM   #34
45Gunner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2009
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Posts: 1,902
The two most important considerations for ammo storage is constant temperature and humidity. (Should not have to mention it here but ammo must be kept dry also).

I store thousands of rounds in my house. Ammo is kept in its original boxes and those boxes are loaded into plastic storage boxes with good, tight fitting covers. The temperature and humidity is kept at a constant setting all year round. The plastic keeps out the dirt/dust and dog dander.

The one place not to store ammo is in a garage that is not temperature controlled.

Every one of my of my magazines are loaded and in my very insulated, protected safe. My safe also is constant temperature and humidity controlled.
__________________
45Gunner
May the Schwartz Be With You.
NRA Instructor
NRA Life Member
45Gunner is offline  
Old August 27, 2017, 08:44 AM   #35
vito
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2004
Location: IL
Posts: 853
I've never had ammo go bad, and I never store ammo where it is damp or hot. Years ago an LEO friend told me of a case where an elderly woman used a revolver for home defense, firing one round which made the attacker flee. The gun had sat loaded, at the bottom of her underwear drawer, untouched for over 50 years since her long deceased father had given her the gun for her safety.
__________________
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.”
― George Orwell
vito is offline  
Old August 27, 2017, 10:24 AM   #36
243winxb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 1,730
44 AMP
Quote:
Thank you for that link 243winxb.
The link is my Signature.

The 10 years comes from the Federal website.

Last edited by 243winxb; August 27, 2017 at 11:09 AM.
243winxb is offline  
Old August 27, 2017, 11:15 AM   #37
243winxb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 1,730
From Federal.
Quote:
WHAT IS THE SHELF LIFE OF AMMO AND STORAGE?

Store reloading components and ammunition in a cool, dry place, protected from direct exposure to sunlight. If stored properly there is a 10-year shelf life on loaded ammunition.
https://www.federalpremium.com/company/faq.aspx
243winxb is offline  
Old August 28, 2017, 06:53 AM   #38
243winxb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 1,730
No one wants to argue with Federal?
243winxb is offline  
Old August 28, 2017, 08:32 AM   #39
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 3,112
i have a huge cellar full of old ammo, mostly US milsurp. Recently inspected all that stuff.

My .45/70 military ammo made in 1880-1900 started having misfires in the mid 1960s. None of it fires today.

None of my .30 caliber (Krag) military ammo fires.

Most of the .30 caliber (.30-06) made during WWI was deteriorated badly and was recently destroyed. Kept samples with rare head stamps.

One lot of .30 caliber (.30-06) manufactured in 1942 was deteriorating. Cases were cracking and corroding. The powder had that acrid smell. That ammo was destroyed.

Recently fired rounds from all remaining lots of US WWII ammo on hand. All rounds fired.

My Japanese 6.5mm and 7.7mm ammo is highly unreliable.
thallub is offline  
Old August 29, 2017, 03:35 PM   #40
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,675
Military ammo from anyone's wartime production should be considered "iffy" and that from defeated nations really "iffy", especially now that so much time has passed since WWII.

As I said earlier, I shot a batch of WWI ammo in the 70s, and all was good, but that's 40 years ago, now...

The WWII stuff that was the "good standard" still in the 60s and 70s is almost another half century older now.

And, I'm pretty sure the care that made ammo last a long time, wasn't a priority for wartime production, where the ammo was expected to be used or lost within a short period of years.

Japanese Ammo is notoriously unreliable, even when it was relatively new, and none of it is new anymore. I remember a Tales of the Gun episode, maybe 10 years back, now, they did Japanese WWII guns, and had all the common machine guns, pistols and rifles, and even the rare SMG. And they were using Japanese WWII ammo.

Every single gun had a jam or a misfire, except the bolt action Arisaka.


The big thing with milsurp ammo is that there's no way of knowing how much care went into making it long term stable, and there's no way of knowing what it might have "lived through" in storage conditions, before we got it.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old August 29, 2017, 07:26 PM   #41
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 3,112
One can only attest to storage conditions that began when he came to possess the ammunition.

Most of the .30 caliber military ammunition i have was obtained in 1970. There were two pickup loads of the stuff. It was stored in a cellar in WV until about 2000 when it was moved to OK and stored in a deep cellar in the woods.

Wanted to shoot some old .30 caliber ammo so i picked a can of DM 42. Glad i did that.

All the rounds in that can were in bad shape. The rounds in another can looked pretty decent except for some slight corrosion from inside the cases. The powder did not rattle in the cases when shook.

Tore apart a round from the second can. The base of the bullet was green with corrosion and about half the powder adhered to the case. The inside of the case was also green.


http://i.imgur.com/1qm5Ysh.jpg

Last edited by thallub; August 29, 2017 at 07:34 PM.
thallub is offline  
Old August 30, 2017, 12:37 AM   #42
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,675
Quote:
Tore apart a round from the second can. The base of the bullet was green with corrosion and about half the powder adhered to the case. The inside of the case was also green
This is from the chemical breakdown of the powder, releasing nitric acid fumes.

Ultimately the case will corrode and crack.

A friend of mine bought 500 rnds of 7.62 NATO, untypically sight unseen. when he got it he was rather disappointed. Loose in a plastic bag inside a cardboard box, the stuff was dirty. Dirty as in dusty with sand in the bottom of the bag. Dingy but otherwise looked ok. I forget the headstamp letters (TZ or TZZ or something like that, we looked it up, apparently Israeli in origin)

Dates were 79,80,81

We test fired 100rnds through one of his ARs. Just shooting the 200yd gong. Every round that fired worked fine, and I hit the gong with boring regularity.

However, we has 11 failure to fire, and 9 of the fired cases cracked, at the head, inline with the case body.

I pulled the rest of the bullets. Many of them had powder sticking in clumps to the base of the bullet and some corrosion was evident.

I'm not a chemist, but I worked 15 years in what was the free world's largest nuclear chemical plant, so I know a thing or two about industrial batch chemical operations.

Exactly how you process a batch of powder can determine if you can count on it being stable for 40 years, or 20, or even 10. And if you make powder that you're sure will last 40 years, you give it shelf life of 20.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old August 30, 2017, 07:14 PM   #43
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 3,112
i managed the destruction of the US Army unserviceable ammunition from Desert Storm. Destroyed about 20,000 tons of ammunition including well over one hundred million rounds of small arms ammunition. The ammo dump was huge. The perimeter road was 46 kilometers long.

There was smalls arms ammunition in huge piles, in MRE cases and containers of all sorts. We initially destroyed all ammunition that could not be identified by lot number. As time went on we were ordered to destroy pristine small arms ammunition in original pack. i destroyed 5.56mm, .45 caliber, and 9mm ammunition made as late as 1989. Yeah, wished i had some way to get some home; especially that pallet of .22 Eley rifle match.

Among the turned in small arms ammunition was huge quantities of .50 caliber ammunition manufactured in the mid to late 1940s. i was told that ammunition was stored in Germany. All that old .50 caliber ammunition looked good. Broke some rounds down; the powder looked good as well.

This is me ready to light off a burn pit:

http://i.imgur.com/lidd17w.jpg
thallub is offline  
Old August 30, 2017, 07:21 PM   #44
JoeSixpack
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2017
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,048
OMG, how was you able to do that without crying, I'd have been balling.
JoeSixpack is offline  
Old August 31, 2017, 01:44 PM   #45
ShootistPRS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2017
Posts: 1,583
That whole process should be criminal. Tax payers paid for it and the military, at the direction of a "president", destroyed it all instead of making it available to the public which would have made money instead of wasting it.
ShootistPRS is offline  
Old August 31, 2017, 03:55 PM   #46
JoeSixpack
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2017
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,048
I can't disagree with you shootist, They probably did it "for safety"
At least I hope that's the lame excuse.

I guess cause ammo is old, or they couldn't document where it came from better safe then sorry I suppose.

But ya I just seen a store trying to sell .223 reloads with teh warning "SHOOT AT YOUR OWN RISK" up to 20% might be squib, over charged, etc, etc

I stopped reading after 20% could squibs.

Im sure what ever was destroyed was head and shoulders better.. Actually let me go see If I can hunt down the link again.

EDIT:

https://agbarms.com/products/seconds...nt=42872437512
Quote:
NOTE: This lot of .223/5.56 could contain up to 10% or more squibs/short charge/zero charge rounds. On average we have seen 6% in this lot, but if you decide to shoot these, you do so at your own risk. Please be careful. We suggest that these be used solely for the components. 90+% of these rounds are equivalent quality to our first line .223/5.56, but at a fraction of the price.
Some scary stuff right there.

They're sold out so I hope no ones shooting this garbage.

Last edited by JoeSixpack; August 31, 2017 at 04:01 PM.
JoeSixpack is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.10732 seconds with 10 queries