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Old August 17, 2018, 07:44 AM   #26
lee n. field
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ45 View Post
I am also interested in the OPs second question; "Do all striker fire guns work in this manner"?...What is the difference between a Glock and XD firing mechanism?
Glock -- partially tensioned striker, "slingshotted" and released by the trigger bar

XD -- fully tensioned striker, trigger pulls sear down, releasing striker.
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Old August 17, 2018, 09:53 AM   #27
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Carrying a Glock is same as carrying a 1911 pistol with the safety off if the 1911 has a 5# trigger pull EXCEPT the 1911 has a grip safety.
I also noticed that no one mentioned GLOCK LEG OR GLOCK FOOT.
Another impression............Glock would sell a lot more pistols in the USA if he sold the ones with safetys on them here. I can't understand the "CULT".
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Old August 17, 2018, 10:24 AM   #28
Glenn E. Meyer
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Perhaps, if he did we would be spared the endless "I'm scared of guns without a safety", "I can't shoot a Glock" threads.

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Old August 17, 2018, 10:43 AM   #29
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I think the experiment was done with a modified cruciform. Part of it was cut away so that it could be pressed down with a small tool.
So, in order to get the pistol to fire from the “pre-cocked” position, we need to remove the firing pin block AND cut off a leg of the cruciform sear? Sounds like the gun is pretty safe if left in factory trim. Lol

The bottom line is that if you pull he trigger it will go BANG. If you dont, it wont. Sounds like a good system to me.
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Old August 17, 2018, 10:44 AM   #30
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Handy Table:

Uncocked striker:
Kahrs
S&W SD9VE

Partially cocked striker:
Glock
Ruger SR-series

Fully cocked striker:
M&P
VP9
PPQ

Feel free to add as we go.....

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Old August 17, 2018, 11:36 AM   #31
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Fully cocked striker: Luger
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Old August 17, 2018, 12:09 PM   #32
FITASC
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Quote:
I also noticed that no one mentioned GLOCK LEG OR GLOCK FOOT.
Because that is purely operator error for having your finger on the trigger when you're not supposed to.

Quote:
Uncocked striker:
Kahrs
S&W SD9VE
Add HK P7 to that list
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Old August 17, 2018, 12:19 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seeker_two View Post
Handy Table:

Fully cocked striker:
M&P
VP9
PPQ

Feel free to add as we go.....

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Springfield XDs. I have ventured away from striker fired pistols that have the striker "cocked" enough to ignite a primer if there is a failure (or usually a combination of failures or just overworked). Just not worth the risk to me.

Is the new Sig cocked, partially cocked?
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Old August 17, 2018, 01:57 PM   #34
seeker_two
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Revised Handy Table:

Uncocked striker:
Kahrs
S&W SD9VE
HK P7

Partially cocked striker:
Glock
Ruger SR-series

Fully cocked striker:
M&P
VP9
PPQ
Luger
XD


Feel free to add as we go.....

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Old August 17, 2018, 04:07 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seeker_two View Post
Uncocked striker:
Kahrs
S&W SD9VE
HK P7
I recently had a Kahr CT-9 and a S&W SD9VE apart and looked at the striker/striker release mechanisms. Both the CT-9 and SD9VE are clearly partially cocked striker designs. That is; when ready to fire the striker was not in the fully relaxed position (at rest against the striker/firing pin block). Instead the striker is pulled back from the firing pin block, with the striker spring partially compressed, and the striker held in the partially cocked position by the release mechanism activated by the trigger.
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Old August 17, 2018, 05:31 PM   #36
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An addition to the Revised Handy Table:
Walther P99: either uncocked striker or fully cocked striker

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
This thread relates the experience of one person who performed the test properly and found that the gun would fire from the pre-tensioned position. I just replicated the test with a single primed cartridge (Federal) and it did fire. The firing pin strike was clearly light, but the primer did go off.
I often see claims that a Glock striker is not pre-tensioned enough to ignite a primer, but I have never been able to find written evidence of Glock actually making that claim. Interestingly, Glock's patent made the following claim:
Quote:
Preferably the starting position of the firing bolt is in a noncritical region of its travel path or that of the hammer, in one in which the force of the partially loaded firing-bolt spring or hammer spring is insufficient to fire a shot.
The patent also stated the degree of pre-tension could be varied to result in different trigger weights.
Quote:
The trigger or cocking force is the difference between these spring forces and can be set at a hair trigger or a relatively stiff novice level.
Even more interesting, Glock's patent covered both hammer-fired and striker-fired designs.
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Old August 17, 2018, 06:02 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by pete2 View Post
Carrying a Glock is same as carrying a 1911 pistol with the safety off if the 1911 has a 5# trigger pull EXCEPT the 1911 has a grip safety.
I also noticed that no one mentioned GLOCK LEG OR GLOCK FOOT.
Another impression............Glock would sell a lot more pistols in the USA if he sold the ones with safetys on them here. I can't understand the "CULT".
I do not agree with this. BIG difference in the take-up of the trigger, and that's by design.
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Old August 17, 2018, 08:47 PM   #38
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I handled and examined an FNS pistol when they first came out. The striker pre-tensioning appeared to be roughly 60% based on "eyeball" measurements.

I was also able to check a Caracal when they were on the market and, as I recall, the Caracal striker is also pretensioned roughly similar to a Glock striker.
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Old August 18, 2018, 12:55 AM   #39
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The trigger pull on a Glock is exactly the same for every trigger pull.
Perhaps when it works right, but they don't all work right. I have personal experience with one that didn't. Despite the ad slogan, they aren't "perfection".

As to a manual safety, and, lets be clear, I'm talking about an active safety, one that doesn't go on until you put it on, and doesn't go off until you take it off, I think it has it's biggest benefit when used, for those (rare but possible) times when the trigger gets pulled and its NOT your intent to pull it. (May not even be your finger...)

I'm a firm believer there should be a manual safety (a safety lock) on a gun with a relatively short, relatively light trigger pull. This is in addition to any and all passive systems.

I am very skeptical of myself, personally, forgetting a safety was there. or forgetting to take it off, when needed. I am also very skeptical of myself forgetting where the brake is, or where the clutch is, or how to use them. You, I don't know about.
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Old August 18, 2018, 11:33 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
I am also very skeptical of myself forgetting where the brake is, or where the clutch is, or how to use them.
Perhaps your analogy was facetious, but it you've ever done any genuine research into "sudden acceleration" of automobiles -- and I'm not referring to shameful media hype -- you'll see that people in fact do just what you said. The overwhelming consensus among government and independent agencies is that "sudden acceleration" is not caused by malfunctions of cruise controls or electronic throttle systems -- it's the result of drivers stepping on the wrong pedal. Occam's Razor. Plain and simple.

Which isn't to say that ergonomic design isn't a factor in both instances. Hence, on firearms, we have trigger guards, passive safety systems, trigger take-up, and (if you insist) manual safeties.
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Old August 18, 2018, 11:56 AM   #41
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Quote:
I also noticed that no one mentioned GLOCK LEG OR GLOCK FOOT.
Actually that has been mentioned 2 or 3 times in this thread, but it's easy to read past it. It's a relevant part of the discussion because the hesitation folks have about carrying Glocks isn't about the safety of the guns when sitting on a table, the caution is in handling the guns while carrying on a day to day basis.

Glocks are safe guns. It's in the area of routine administrative handling by people that they have weaknesses that some other designs do not have and that's the heart of the question. It's what folks need to be aware of with Glocks.

The most common causes of UDs with Glocks are, in order of occurrence:

1.When holstering. When something gets in the trigger guard while holstering the gun, that depresses the trigger--Glock leg.

2. When disassembling for cleaning.

3. The least common, grabbing for the gun when it's dropped, in a scrum, or tripping while holding the gun in the hand, the trigger finger fits naturally into the trigger guard and the trigger is depressed.

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Old August 18, 2018, 12:52 PM   #42
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A Glock in and of itself is perfectly safe to carry without a safety.

It is in my opinion, based on knowledge of how the system works and how other modern striker pistols work, to be one of the safest designs available, outside of the true DAO striker pistols.

At rest, the striker is physically unable to move down and release the striker, due to being physically blocked from moving in that manner. Then you have all the other passive safeties and other features. It is a well thought out system.


A manual safety does have some benefits, as it can mitigate user error... But they are not foolproof either.

Modern shooting techniques dictate that a manual safety is to be disengaged during the draw, so it is not active when the pistol is on target. Finger is off the trigger unless you will be shooting immediately.

Forgetting to engage the safety prior to reholstering is a possibility.

Most who have a ND with a striker pistol do so when reholstering.

If you can't be bothered to look and ensure the holster is clear first, can you also claim that you would always engage a manual safety?

There is no foolproof system, if a gun can be made to fire, it can also be fired at a time unintended.

Manual safeties, when broken down and looked at critically, do add some margin of error, but it's not a vast amount.
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Old August 18, 2018, 12:58 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tipoc View Post
Actually that has been mentioned 2 or 3 times in this thread, but it's easy to read past it. It's a relevant part of the discussion because the hesitation folks have about carrying Glocks isn't about the safety of the guns when sitting on a table, the caution is in handling the guns while carrying on a day to day basis.

Glocks are safe guns. It's in the area of routine administrative handling by people that they have weaknesses that some other designs do not have and that's the heart of the question. It's what folks need to be aware of with Glocks.

The most common causes of UDs with Glocks are, in order of occurrence:

1.When holstering. When something gets in the trigger guard while holstering the gun, that depresses the trigger--Glock leg.

2. When disassembling for cleaning.

3. The least common, grabbing for the gun when it's dropped, in a scrum, or tripping while holding the gun in the hand, the trigger finger fits naturally into the trigger guard and the trigger is depressed.
You're probably correct, but Item 2 just boggles my mind.
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Old August 18, 2018, 02:19 PM   #44
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And as I pointed out earlier, alot of people for some reason feel the need to trip the trigger when they are finished shooting......as you will see Hickok45 do every time he is finished with a glock???
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Old August 18, 2018, 02:28 PM   #45
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And as I pointed out earlier, alot of people for some reason feel the need to trip the trigger when they are finished shooting......as you will see Hickok45 do every time he is finished with a glock???
On a Glock, and other similar pistols, the only primary external evidence that the gun does not have a round chambered is for the trigger to be back.

It makes sense to store the gun in that condition if it's unloaded.

In addition, people who owned Glocks back when they came in the original "Tupperware" boxes may have gotten in the habit of storing them with the trigger back since that was the mandated condition for the gun if it was to be placed back in the factory box.
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Old August 18, 2018, 02:45 PM   #46
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if it has not been clearly stated before, there is an important part that must be clearly stated.

The only condition in which the glock is safe is if nothing pulls the trigger after pulling the little doojie thingy that keeps the trigger from moving. I'm going to say that this is a really unusual thing in nature, you couldn't hook it on a branch or belt loop, or any other unusual feature in the course of a half dozen lifetimes unless you were either crazy unlucky, or just amazingly careless.

as long as the aforementioned accidental hard and perfectly situated yank on the trigger never happens, it is safe.

The glock is therefore almost absolutely safe from accidental discharge if you are conscientious about keeping your finger out of the darned loop and away from the trigger. If you can't do that, you need an external safety. If you are concerned that you might accidentally do it, you should get one with a manual safety.

What all of the complaining is about, I don't know. The gun is safe unless a person pulls the trigger without meaning to. Using an external safety can prevent that. If a person wants one there is no one else that belongs in the decision making process except to share facts.
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Old August 18, 2018, 02:48 PM   #47
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On a Glock, and other similar pistols, the only primary external evidence that the gun does not have a round chambered is for the trigger to be back.
maybe it's only the later generations, but my glock has an extension on the extractor that pushes out of the slide. It's sharp and large and there is no doubt that it is loaded, just slide your finger down. There is also a small gap in which you can see a cartridge if you look for one.
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Old August 18, 2018, 03:09 PM   #48
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No, both of those are present, to at least some extent in the older generations. The extension on the extractor isn't there, but you can still tell by feel the difference between an empty chamber and one with a case/cartridge in the chamber.

That's why I said "primary external evidence". I should have deleted 'only' when I added the qualifier 'primary' but didn't.
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Old August 18, 2018, 03:42 PM   #49
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I know of a person who pulled the trigger to store as a habit.

One day at his CCW qualifications, he did that after completing his shooting, and fired an ND at the ground. Because he was warned not to do that, he was immediately disqualified for his negligance. Force of habit, and he forgot to check to see if the gun was unchambered caused the ND. He lost his privilege to carry as a result, and because he was so embarrassed, he never applied again for his carry permit again because he lost all confidence in his handling of firearms. Just one case, I know, but it's a lesson.


IMHO relying on visual inspection of the trigger position is a poor habit of knowing whether the gun is chambered or not, since every gun is different.
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Old August 18, 2018, 04:25 PM   #50
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I store firearms with the actions decocked or in a relaxed position.

This is mostly a habit from the military, where you clear and drop the hammer before returning the rifle to the armory or to be put away or carried away from the range. In the armory they have a clearing bucket for this. At the range, you aim downrange and pull the trigger.

Checking clear is a necessity anytime you are putting away a firearm, especially after the range, or the firearm was loaded for whatever reason.

Dropping a hammer, releasing the striker, or whatever else is required to put the action in a relaxed state... Is ultimately just an extra step that really doesn't do anything of practicality, but it will let you know real quick if you failed to do the most important thing first, check clear. Not the preferred method of finding your mistake for sure.

If you fail to check clear, and don't decocked the action in some way, you are still putting away a loaded firearm, in a manner that can lead to trouble in the future.

So you can't say that the habbit is a bad idea that will lead to a ND, as failing to check clear can easily lead to an ND the next time you pull the firearm out of the safe. You couldn't be bothered to check clear before you put it away, can you really be expected to check clear before fooling with the trigger a month from now when you grab it from the safe... Probably not.
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