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Old August 15, 2018, 08:06 PM   #26
cw308
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Knowing the distance from your bolt face to the start of the rifling you can seat any bullet to that measurement or shorter with no chambering problems as long as your prepping your brass also .
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Old August 15, 2018, 10:58 PM   #27
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I seated deeper and still problem exists. I went down to 2.200" and even 2.180". Had to give that extra push. At this depth... The marks seem to run vertical on the projectile.
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Old August 16, 2018, 04:42 AM   #28
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Something else is going on.
Have you got (can you get) a Hornady Overall Length Gauge (along w/ matching cartridge case) ?

(OBTW: You aren't crimping while seating, are you ?)







BREAK BREAK:
- Run a bullet (just bullet) up into chamber until it stops and hold it there with the eraser end of a pencil in from the breech

- Run a cleaning rod (blunt/square end) down the bore until it runs up against the bullet.

- Mark the rod square at muzzle.

- Remove bullet, close bolt, run the cleaning rod down the bore again until it stops at bolt face.

- Mark the rod at muzzle.

- What's the distance between the two marks?




.

Last edited by mehavey; August 16, 2018 at 04:53 AM.
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Old August 16, 2018, 06:27 AM   #29
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"I seated deeper and still problem exists. I went down to 2.200" and even 2.180". Had to give that extra push. At this depth... The marks seem to run vertical on the projectile."

I don't have any suggestions as to the "marks" on the bullets but just have to ask. Does your seater die have a crimp bevel? If so, are you absolutely sure this isn't contacting the case mouth during seating?
If it makes contact, there's a possibility you're producing an imperceptible bulge in the case shoulder that's causing your chamber hang-up.
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Old August 16, 2018, 07:34 AM   #30
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How deep can you go until it chambers ? Just set up 3 dummy rounds , seating the first one deeper each time until it chambers without any or very little resistance , by that time that dummy is pretty marked up go to the second , when it chambers check for marks and make minor adjustments until your satisfied , third is your dummy round . VMax have a hard taper , I shoot Sierra 168 MK in my 308 tried 100 A Max , good bullet but seated deeper . With my barrel and almost no free bore I can't follow the listed OAL. The listing for my bullet combination is 2.800 OAL is with some free bore . I would be jamming my rounds at that measurement . 2.775 is where I'm seating with a .002 jump , and that's with a Sierra , the A Max would be deeper . I don't look at the OAL anymore . Only ogive
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Old August 16, 2018, 08:19 AM   #31
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I read all the responses but didn’t see if the OP had tried to chamber a resized case (no seated bullet). If the case will chamber, then the problem lies with the seating process. I’ll guessand say that he’s rolling and bulging the case shoulder as he seats the bullet and crimps. No crimp necessary, so adjust the Die.

One other possibility, and one I experienced, is that the chamber neck is too tight. I doubt that it’s his problem unless it’s a new barrel. In my problem, I had new Lapua brass, which had rather thick neck walls, and I had a new barrel with a very tight match chamber. A sized case would chamber, but seat a bullet and it would not chamber. I borrowed a factory round and it would chamber. Starting then, and with measuring help from my mic, I realized what the problem was. I had the chamber neck opened up a bit. Problem solved.

So, first step is to chamber a resized case.
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Old August 16, 2018, 08:29 AM   #32
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Quote:
So, first step is to chamber a resized case.
He did. See posts 1, 9 and 13.
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Old August 16, 2018, 10:33 AM   #33
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I never noticed a rifle brand.

If it is a Savage, they are notorious for short chambers.
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Old August 16, 2018, 10:53 AM   #34
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Quote:
Quote:
So, first step is to chamber a resized case.
He did. See posts 1, 9 and 13.

with no bullet seated? I could be wrong but the way I read his posts is he repeated the same actions expecting a different result
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Old August 16, 2018, 03:13 PM   #35
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Hounddawg,

Post 1, 3rd sentence:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninosdemente
When trimmed they are all around 1.743", I checked to see if they chambered and they did.

Ninosdemente,

This get's curiouser and curiouser. Looked again at that scuff and it looks severe. I also agree they look further out than they should at the factory recommended COL. Take a look at the image of the Black Hills round using that bullet and I think you will see the difference.

You are measuring OAL from the base of the bullet to the very tip of the bullet, right? Not by using Hornady's so-called OAL gauge, which actually does not measure OAL at all, but rather measures from the cartridge case base to a place on the bullet ogive. If you believed that number was OAL, your actual OAL would be much longer.

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Old August 16, 2018, 03:28 PM   #36
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Looks like the brass is going too far into the seating die. I see over crimp signs. If seating deeper did not solve the problem try not crimping at all.

Take the seating die out of the press. Put an empty sized case that has been trimmed in the shell holder. Run it to the top of the stroke. Back the seating stem out completely. Screw the seating die down until you feel it touch the case mouth. Back it out one full turn, and another half turn for good measure. Now Put a loaded round into the die, and screw the seating stem down until it stops. You can adjust down from there.

See if that will fix the problem. I had the same problem with .221 Rem Fireball when I started with that round.
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Old August 16, 2018, 04:39 PM   #37
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mehavey,

Don't have one. Is that tool you provided a link for, is it a must have? Will try your method.
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Old August 16, 2018, 04:46 PM   #38
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Thanks UncleNick. I think I need to work on my reading comprehension.

if the case chambers w/o the bullet out but won't with the bullet in that narrows it down
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Old August 16, 2018, 04:46 PM   #39
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Rifle is Savage 12FV and was purchased new about two months ago.

Yes, tried chambering a trimmed case without projectile and did chamber as it should. Reason why I seated deeper was to see if the round would chamber. Just trying to narrow down the possible mistake I did along the way. As still new to this... just trying to learn from my big mistake.

A side note, kind of curious as I already loaded 20 30-06 and the finished round did chamber correctly. I know it is a different round but the steps are mainly the same correct?
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Old August 16, 2018, 05:15 PM   #40
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I was afraid that Hornady tool might have been the cause of you seating out too far. It would be a useful diagnostic tool, but not essential.

Since Black Hills loads that bullet, I called them. The tech I spoke to suggested 2.240" as a starting point; even shorter than Hornady recommends. Hodgdon has a good number of loads for this bullet, but they used 2.250", same as Hornady recommends.

You can get a more exact number for yourself using the cleaning rod method Mehavey described. You can also decide it might be a good idea to own a dummy round and just put one bullet in a resized case and seat it deeper and deeper until it fits. If this doesn't happen before the shoulder of the bullet (see my drawing above) is below level with the mouth of the case, then you need to have the chamber inspected because something seems to be abnormal.

As mentioned previously, don't crimp. Not before you've established the right seating depth. After that, you can experiment with it, but you're not likely to be parachuting these into a combat zone or feeding them into a machine gun, so the extra bullet hold probably serves no practical purpose, and crimping can bulge the sides of the neck and the body out.
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Old August 16, 2018, 06:43 PM   #41
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If not done already, mike a bullet to make sure they are .224 rather than .227s in error intended for the .22 Savage Hi-Power. Oversized bullet could expand the case neck and prevent chambering.
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Old August 17, 2018, 10:20 AM   #42
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I'll agree its hard to ignore that scuff on the bullet.

Generally,whan a long seated bullet engages the rifling leade,the impression of the rifling lands is clearly visible,.Its not a broad scuff.

You might try using marker on the bullet for a better impression.Look to see a mark from each rifling land.

There is the full diameter portion of the bullet.These Hornady bullets are secant ogive.vs tangent ogive.With both ogives,bullet dia decreasesat the beginning of the ogive. If the cylindrical portion of the bullet is seated to similar depth,the secant ogive geometry will probably generate clearance for the rifling sooner than a tangent ogive.

It was mentioned above,I would look at shoulder collapse.

OP,does your seating die body touch the shellholder as set? If so,you are likely collapsing and expanding the shoulder via the crimp function built into the die.

This shoulder collapse is likely to be causing bullet eccentricity,particulrly as the shoulder becomes tight to the chamber.

You may have an unfortunate situation in your chamber.If the reamer pilot was undersize the bore diameter,the neck/leade may be slightly eccentric of the bore.That creats a little step which could scuff a bullet

On cartridge gauges: Guages can be made to check about any variable. Be carefu lthat you understand what your gauge is designed to check.

PLEASE,lets NOT go off in the weeds here,the gauge that is commonly called a bushing type "cartridge headspace gauge" (I know,cartridges don't have headspace,spare me)......these bushing gauges ARE NOT plunk gauges to qualify cartridges will chamber.They are gauges to optimize setting your resizing length.They check LENGTH,not diameter or eccentricity.

In order to do that,they must have CLEARANCE on the diameter.

Diametrically oversize ammo or eccentric ammo may pass the bushing gauge and still not chamber.

Try this without changing anything .Measure the diameter of the case at the shoulder after sizing,when it chambers easily.

Then seat a bullet,and measure the shoulder diameter again. Did it change?
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Old August 17, 2018, 11:02 AM   #43
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Quote:
PLEASE, lets NOT go off in the weeds here, the gauge that is commonly called a bushing type "cartridge headspace gauge" (I know, cartridges don't have headspace, spare me)…...these bushing gauges ARE NOT plunk gauges to qualify cartridges will chamber. They are gauges to optimize setting your resizing length. They check LENGTH, not diameter or eccentricity.
I said the Wilson case gage could be used to measure the diameter of the case but? I was outnumbered , it was at this time I decided some reloaders understood their limitations or they just did not want to know. And then I said I make datums and now datums are available on the Internet, in my opinion they are expensive; but the packaging is attractive as in attractively packaged.

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Old August 17, 2018, 03:56 PM   #44
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In post 9, Ninosdemente said he has the Wilson gauge on order. I am interested to hear what he finds.


Ninosdemente,

At this point, I think the thing to do is measure OD's of the bullet and up and down the case neck and the case body below the shoulder and compare the results to a commercial round. Assuming commercial rounds don't have this chambering problem we are looking for an error in diameters somewhere. Every once in a while a chamber escapes the manufacturer having been reamed with a roughing reamer but having missed the finishing reamer step, so it has no proper throat. While unusual it's not impossible, but it needs to be inspected to know it that's the case. It's what the severity of the scuff on the bullet makes me think of, but I'll admit I am grasping at straws here.

In your shoes, I might buy a box of the Black Hills loads with that same bullet to see if they fit and I would compare their outside dimensions to yours. If they don't fit, the chamber has an issue and should be returned to Savage.
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Old August 17, 2018, 04:16 PM   #45
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Check your resizing die readjust per the manual. Make sure the ram hits it. It sounds like you're not resizing the full case due to poorly adjusted resizing die.
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Old August 17, 2018, 04:29 PM   #46
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The scuffs say he's bumping the bullet against the throat. Remember, he already checked that his cases chamber after resizing (see third sentence of post #1).
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Old August 17, 2018, 04:36 PM   #47
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The problem isn’t with the Resizing step. The problem is either with the bullet seating step, the bullet itself (not likely), or the chamber (not likely) if it’s too short. I think he’s rolling the shoulder ever so slightly.

Resized cases chamber.
Factory loads chamber.
Everything works till the bullet seating step.

Borrow a reload from a friend and see if it chambers. If it does, re-examine the seating step. Something going on there,

One last thing. Mic the neck diameter of a factory load that chambers and compare to the neck diameter of a reload that won’t chamber.
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Old August 17, 2018, 05:48 PM   #48
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FOR THE OP:

Please -- before anything else -- follow the BREAK BREAK instructions in Post 28
Step 1. Eliminate or isolate the bullet itself as part of the problem.
Step 2. Then we'll work on the other possible contributors, one at a time (of which crimping while seating is just one).
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Old August 17, 2018, 07:01 PM   #49
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Quote:
If it is a Savage, they are notorious for short chambers.
Yes, i've encountered two M110 Savage rifles with short chambers. Both were .223.
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Old August 17, 2018, 10:10 PM   #50
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One more important test.If you won't do this and reply with the results,I can't help you.

Whether a piece of your sized brass or any ammo or brass that will chamber easily.take a sample or two and measure the diameter of the brass at the shoulder. Write that down.

Now,take a couple samples of your ammo that has gone through your bullet seating process.The ones that don't chamber. Measure the diameter at the shoulder. Write that down.

Is the diameter at the shoulder larger after seating the bullets?

This one bit of information is critical to answering your question
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