Factory Crimp Die feedback

Dr Killdeer · September 11, 2009, 06:35 AM

Recently, I bought the Lee factory crimp die for the 06. I’m loading for a BAR, so I decided on a firm crimp. The pills I’m loading (Nosler) have no cannelure, but this die seems to make the crimping process goof proof. Since I’m new at this, I want to make sure I’m not praying to a golden calf. So, if anybody has feedback on the factory crimp die, good or bad, I’d like to hear it.

SL1 · September 11, 2009, 07:51 AM

Although Lee says otherwise, there have been some tests that show accuracy decreases some when you use the (rifle cartridge version of the) FCD on bullets that do not have a crimping groove. If you pull the bullet from a round after you crimp it, you will see not only a circumferential groove around the bullet, but two slight circumferential raised rings above and below the groove, where the metal from the groove was moved to. Apparently, those rings can alter the bullet's alignment with the chamber throat enough deteriorate accuracy at the target.

Because you said you are new at this, I will point out that there are TWO designs of Lee's FCDs. The one you have is for bottleneck rifle cartridges, and it has an internal collet that squeezes the case mouth inward only at a point where the crimp goes when the press ram is at the top of its stroke. The other design is for straight-walled cases, primarily pistol cases. It does not have an internal collet at all, but has a sliding collar inside that guides the case mouth into a conical section that makes a crimp pretty much like any other crimping die. The thing that makes this version of the Lee FCD unique is a carbide ring in its base that squeezes any bulges in the case back to SAAMI maximum spec when the ram is lowered and the case is drawn out of the die.

Unfortunately, you will probably see a mix of responses to any question about a Lee FCD, some of which will pertain to the version that you did NOT ask about.

SL1

jaguarxk120 · September 11, 2009, 07:54 AM

Call Nosler and ask tech. support what they think about it. It's their bullet and they should know.

Sevens · September 11, 2009, 08:17 AM

I buy and use and also recommend a lot of Lee products, but I can't get on board with either the rifle or handgun FCD.

In your case, I truly believe it is as basic and simple as SL1 points out: When you take a factory built jacketed rifle bullet and you use the force of a tool to alter the physical shape of the bullet, things will ONLY go downhill from there. It's just a matter of how much. You might get away with a little bullet distortion not showing you any trouble on the target.

If you are talking about a bullet with a cannelure/crimping groove, then I don't have a problem with it.

As for the handgun FCD, I will admit that a lot of people do find that this die helps them make ammo that's more reliable and feeds better in their semi-auto pistols. I totally admit that. But my argument is that the Lee Handgun FCD and it's carbide post-sizing ring tries to "clean up" and "fix" problems with loaded rounds that should be addressed earlier in the loading process.

Squeezing a case and a bullet inside that case often results in the springy brass bouncing back near where it was before the sizing and a lead or jacketed bullet that doesn't spring along with it. And like the rifle FCD, too much force with this tool can REALLY screw up a loaded round.

I'm not arguing that many folks find these two FCD tools to be helpful in their production, but "make sure I’m not praying to a golden calf" really describes it well, IMO.

I didn't need them when I started with .38 Special, and 13 calibers and 20 years later, I still feel like I really don't need them.

steve4102 · September 11, 2009, 08:20 AM

I use the LFCD for all of my auto-loaders and a few bolt guns. I use it with cannelured and non-cannelured bullets. I have done extensive testing of the LFCD and I have never had a properly applied crimp degrade accuracy, never. In most cases it improves accuracy and in others it does nothing good or bad to accuracy.

Sport45 · September 11, 2009, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Recently, I bought the Lee factory crimp die for the 06. I’m loading for a BAR, so I decided on a firm crimp.

Have you had a problem with bullets moving in the case when feeding? I don't crimp anything I put in my M1 and can't imagine the BAR being much different. Instead of crimping into a bullet without a cannelure you might want to polish a thou or so off the expander button for more neck tension.

I have an '06 FCD and used it for a while until I found it really wasn't needed.

johnt189 · September 11, 2009, 08:28 AM

I have a bar and the way I do it is neck size only and crimp just barely enough to hold the slug in place so when it gets chambered the slug engages the rifling and the case slides over. Helps in accuracy with no space between the slug and rifling

Sport45 · September 11, 2009, 08:36 AM

Quote:

when it gets chambered the slug engages the rifling and the case slides over.

Have you ever had to unchamber one without firing? What you describe sounds like a recipe for a bullet stuck in the leade and an action full of loose powder when you pull back the charging handle.

**Mike Irwin** · September 11, 2009, 08:52 AM

I'm using the FCD for .38 Special. I used it for the first time loading 100 rounds of .38 the other week. 158-gr. LSWC bullets with a nice big crimping groove.

I was having problems with the die actually folding a few of the cases mid body. All of the cases are the same length, the bullet was in the right spot, and Lee's literature says that variations in case length don't matter, you still get a good crimp.

Had it been doing it to every case, I'd understand there being an issue with how I set it up, but it was doing it maybe to 3 to 5 percent of the cases.

Anyone have any ideas as to what I was doing wrong?

abber · September 11, 2009, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Had it been doing it to every case, I'd understand there being an issue with how I set it up, but it was doing it maybe to 3 to 5 percent of the cases.

I have had problems with XTP bullets having inconsistent cannelure placement. Not very many, but just enough to annoy the heck out of me. When I feel a round wanting to crush, I set it aside, and deal with it at the end. I had one so far off, it had to be unloaded and scrapped. Usually, I can adjust the COL just a little and finish off the round, since I don't throw max charges.

mkl · September 11, 2009, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Anyone have any ideas as to what I was doing wrong?

You said it was new. Did you give it a good blow out with brake cleaner, etc. to remove the preserving gunk the factory coats the inside with?

Just a thought that a good cleaning may help.

**Unclenick** · September 11, 2009, 10:53 AM

Mike,

I wonder if the carbide ring squeeze is sometimes moving the seated bullet up out of position a little and making the crimping action require enough pressure to move the bullet back into position in addition to making the crimp? Lubricated lead bullets aren't hard to make slide in the case. You could tell if this is happening by backing the rounds out after they pass the ring on the upstroke, but before reaching the crimp, and looking to see if the bullets moved?

On the OP, I find the Lee rifle FCD is a try-it-and-see deal. Sometimes it improves accuracy, sometimes it reduces it. It seems to depend on both the bullet and the load behind it as to what will happen? If it doesn't work for your load, don't use it. Broadly speaking, I would anticipate trouble with short bearing surface bullets using that die because a bend in the middle of a short bearing surface can affect the shape of the base, which is critical for accuracy. I would also expect trouble using it with bullets seated out to put their ogives near the lands for the same reason: the crimp is then too near the base.

Also note that the die position can be adjusted to provide a lighter or heavier crimp. To make a light crimp consistent, a good, rigid press, like the Lee Classic Cast press is needed.

Nick

NWPilgrim · September 11, 2009, 10:59 AM

The FCD is ADJUSTABLE.

Make use of this fact. A lot of hyperbole is slung around using the most extreme setting as a reference.

I use the FCD for both semi-auto rifle and pistol cartridges. I don't know of any reason you would need a crimp for bolt/single actions. Proper neck tension should be plenty for those actions.

I use cannelured bullets for my semi-autos. On the rare occasion I want to use a non-cannelured bullet for my AR15 or Garand, then I apply the gentlest crimp possible. For cannelures the FCD does a great job. For non-cannelures I would crimp as firmly as needed to secure the bullet.

It is better to have a secure bullet and no setback and lose some accuracy then to have a beautifully accurate bullet that setback and increases pressures in a semi-auto action. The best way is to get a proper bullet for the type of action you have then apply a crimp if cannelured.

Dr Killdeer · September 11, 2009, 05:00 PM

A lot of my questions have been answered. In fact, some that I never thought of have also been answered. Like anything else, the bottom line is how well it works for me. I called Nosler and the tech support guy said they do not endorse the Lee FCD because it will deform the projectile. I screwed the FCD die in the press until the shell holder touched the bottom of the die with the ram all the way down. Then I went down another half turn. That’s supposed to produce a medium crimp. (I’m plagiarizing the directions.)

Personally, I wouldn’t know a medium crimp from shinola, but I pulled a few bullets and put the mic to them. If they’re deformed, I can’t tell where. What’s more important is the feedback I got from experienced reloaders. You guys are a big help. At least now I know what to look for.

kargo27 · September 12, 2009, 01:27 PM

I'm glad you posted this because I just got a Lee FCD for my .223 rounds and haven't tried it out yet.

September 11, 2009, 06:35 AM	#1
Dr Killdeer Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Location: Newburgh, NY Posts: 127	Factory Crimp Die feedback Recently, I bought the Lee factory crimp die for the 06. I’m loading for a BAR, so I decided on a firm crimp. The pills I’m loading (Nosler) have no cannelure, but this die seems to make the crimping process goof proof. Since I’m new at this, I want to make sure I’m not praying to a golden calf. So, if anybody has feedback on the factory crimp die, good or bad, I’d like to hear it.

September 11, 2009, 08:17 AM	#4
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	I buy and use and also recommend a lot of Lee products, but I can't get on board with either the rifle or handgun FCD. In your case, I truly believe it is as basic and simple as SL1 points out: When you take a factory built jacketed rifle bullet and you use the force of a tool to alter the physical shape of the bullet, things will ONLY go downhill from there. It's just a matter of how much. You might get away with a little bullet distortion not showing you any trouble on the target. If you are talking about a bullet with a cannelure/crimping groove, then I don't have a problem with it. As for the handgun FCD, I will admit that a lot of people do find that this die helps them make ammo that's more reliable and feeds better in their semi-auto pistols. I totally admit that. But my argument is that the Lee Handgun FCD and it's carbide post-sizing ring tries to "clean up" and "fix" problems with loaded rounds that should be addressed earlier in the loading process. Squeezing a case and a bullet inside that case often results in the springy brass bouncing back near where it was before the sizing and a lead or jacketed bullet that doesn't spring along with it. And like the rifle FCD, too much force with this tool can REALLY screw up a loaded round. I'm not arguing that many folks find these two FCD tools to be helpful in their production, but "make sure I’m not praying to a golden calf" really describes it well, IMO. I didn't need them when I started with .38 Special, and 13 calibers and 20 years later, I still feel like I really don't need them. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

September 11, 2009, 08:52 AM	#9
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	I'm using the FCD for .38 Special. I used it for the first time loading 100 rounds of .38 the other week. 158-gr. LSWC bullets with a nice big crimping groove. I was having problems with the die actually folding a few of the cases mid body. All of the cases are the same length, the bullet was in the right spot, and Lee's literature says that variations in case length don't matter, you still get a good crimp. Had it been doing it to every case, I'd understand there being an issue with how I set it up, but it was doing it maybe to 3 to 5 percent of the cases. Anyone have any ideas as to what I was doing wrong? __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

September 11, 2009, 10:53 AM	#12
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Mike, I wonder if the carbide ring squeeze is sometimes moving the seated bullet up out of position a little and making the crimping action require enough pressure to move the bullet back into position in addition to making the crimp? Lubricated lead bullets aren't hard to make slide in the case. You could tell if this is happening by backing the rounds out after they pass the ring on the upstroke, but before reaching the crimp, and looking to see if the bullets moved? On the OP, I find the Lee rifle FCD is a try-it-and-see deal. Sometimes it improves accuracy, sometimes it reduces it. It seems to depend on both the bullet and the load behind it as to what will happen? If it doesn't work for your load, don't use it. Broadly speaking, I would anticipate trouble with short bearing surface bullets using that die because a bend in the middle of a short bearing surface can affect the shape of the base, which is critical for accuracy. I would also expect trouble using it with bullets seated out to put their ogives near the lands for the same reason: the crimp is then too near the base. Also note that the die position can be adjusted to provide a lighter or heavier crimp. To make a light crimp consistent, a good, rigid press, like the Lee Classic Cast press is needed. Nick __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; September 11, 2009 at 11:04 AM.

September 11, 2009, 10:59 AM	#13
NWPilgrim Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,346	The FCD is ADJUSTABLE. Make use of this fact. A lot of hyperbole is slung around using the most extreme setting as a reference. I use the FCD for both semi-auto rifle and pistol cartridges. I don't know of any reason you would need a crimp for bolt/single actions. Proper neck tension should be plenty for those actions. I use cannelured bullets for my semi-autos. On the rare occasion I want to use a non-cannelured bullet for my AR15 or Garand, then I apply the gentlest crimp possible. For cannelures the FCD does a great job. For non-cannelures I would crimp as firmly as needed to secure the bullet. It is better to have a secure bullet and no setback and lose some accuracy then to have a beautifully accurate bullet that setback and increases pressures in a semi-auto action. The best way is to get a proper bullet for the type of action you have then apply a crimp if cannelured. __________________ "The ultimate authority ... resides in the people alone. ... The advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation ... forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition." - James Madison

September 11, 2009, 07:51 AM	#2
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Although Lee says otherwise, there have been some tests that show accuracy decreases some when you use the (rifle cartridge version of the) FCD on bullets that do not have a crimping groove. If you pull the bullet from a round after you crimp it, you will see not only a circumferential groove around the bullet, but two slight circumferential raised rings above and below the groove, where the metal from the groove was moved to. Apparently, those rings can alter the bullet's alignment with the chamber throat enough deteriorate accuracy at the target. Because you said you are new at this, I will point out that there are TWO designs of Lee's FCDs. The one you have is for bottleneck rifle cartridges, and it has an internal collet that squeezes the case mouth inward only at a point where the crimp goes when the press ram is at the top of its stroke. The other design is for straight-walled cases, primarily pistol cases. It does not have an internal collet at all, but has a sliding collar inside that guides the case mouth into a conical section that makes a crimp pretty much like any other crimping die. The thing that makes this version of the Lee FCD unique is a carbide ring in its base that squeezes any bulges in the case back to SAAMI maximum spec when the ram is lowered and the case is drawn out of the die. Unfortunately, you will probably see a mix of responses to any question about a Lee FCD, some of which will pertain to the version that you did NOT ask about. SL1

September 11, 2009, 07:54 AM	#3
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	Call Nosler and ask tech. support what they think about it. It's their bullet and they should know.

September 11, 2009, 08:20 AM	#5
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,955	I use the LFCD for all of my auto-loaders and a few bolt guns. I use it with cannelured and non-cannelured bullets. I have done extensive testing of the LFCD and I have never had a properly applied crimp degrade accuracy, never. In most cases it improves accuracy and in others it does nothing good or bad to accuracy.

September 11, 2009, 08:28 AM	#7
johnt189 Junior Member Join Date: September 11, 2009 Location: Earth Posts: 3	I have a bar and the way I do it is neck size only and crimp just barely enough to hold the slug in place so when it gets chambered the slug engages the rifling and the case slides over. Helps in accuracy with no space between the slug and rifling

September 11, 2009, 05:00 PM	#14
Dr Killdeer Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Location: Newburgh, NY Posts: 127	A lot of my questions have been answered. In fact, some that I never thought of have also been answered. Like anything else, the bottom line is how well it works for me. I called Nosler and the tech support guy said they do not endorse the Lee FCD because it will deform the projectile. I screwed the FCD die in the press until the shell holder touched the bottom of the die with the ram all the way down. Then I went down another half turn. That’s supposed to produce a medium crimp. (I’m plagiarizing the directions.) Personally, I wouldn’t know a medium crimp from shinola, but I pulled a few bullets and put the mic to them. If they’re deformed, I can’t tell where. What’s more important is the feedback I got from experienced reloaders. You guys are a big help. At least now I know what to look for.

September 12, 2009, 01:27 PM	#15
kargo27 Junior Member Join Date: September 2, 2009 Location: Ft. Worth, TX Posts: 9	I'm glad you posted this because I just got a Lee FCD for my .223 rounds and haven't tried it out yet.