Bump in the night--Problems with this "drill"?

[tydephan]

KC,

I promise that I am sincerely curious and no flame whatsoever is intended.

With that caveat out of the way...do you carry daily? If so, do you carry with a round chambered?

I only ask because the sound a "racked slide" on a semi-auto is similar to the pump of a shotgun. It is plausible, given your argument, that an assailant would also be intimidated by the sound of this action as well? Of course, in this situation, most likely visual contact will have been established between the two parties and the sight of your weapon could also be considered a valid deterrent. In this situation, the "racking of the slide" still sends the message of "Hey peckerhead, I really mean business!"

I understand some of the points you make in your argument, but I just would not feel comfortable trying to intimidate someone that I know nothing about (except they are in my house when they certainly should not be).

It's an interesting argument, and I appreciate your counterpoints.

[kcshooter]

I promise that I am sincerely curious and no flame whatsoever is intended.

With that caveat out of the way...do you carry daily? If so, do you carry with a round chambered?

I only ask because the sound a "racked slide" on a semi-auto is similar to the pump of a shotgun. It is plausible, given your argument, that an assailant would also be intimidated by the sound of this action as well?

I understand some of the points you make in your argument, but I just would not feel comfortable trying to intimidate someone that I know nothing about (except they are in my house when they certainly should not be).

It's an interesting argument, and I appreciate your counterpoints.

I carry a 1911 cocked and locked for 14-16 hours every day.
If I am in a confrontation throughout the day, it is a totally different situation.
You are talking about a silent house in the dark in the middle of the night, when that sound will be unmistakeable and will carry thru the house easily. While it may give the intruder a clue that someone is indeed at home, I doubt it would be able to identify my location beyond somewhere upstairs, and there have been countless cases where that noise has sent an intruder running. Some may not be discouraged by it, but I have a shotgun pointed at the top of the stairs at that point, which is their only point of entry to the upper floor of my house. They are also entering a hallway at that point with no cover for themselves while I do have cover. I feel pretty good about my odds at this point.
Besides, you will need to call 911, and even whispering in a house in the dead of night will alert the intruder of your presence and position. Since you're gonna be giving away your location anyway, why not give them something to worry about too?
During the day, if I need to take out my weapon, the situation is most likely face-to-face and has gone past the point of "scaring them off". A handgun in broad daylight isn't meant to be intimidating; if I draw, I have every intention to shoot. And just having one drawn in the day is intimidating enough if that's important to you. I don't want to take the extra second to chamber a round, I can draw and fire in under a second and a half, and that's whats important to me in an outside of the house daylight confrontation. I can also do it one handed if need be, which is also a very important factor.
I don't mean this to be insulting, but you are following a false chain of logic here, and comparing an apple to an orange.
These two situations are totally unrelated, I'm not sure I understand why you would want to carry an unloaded gun, and as I said, your position will be given away with the call to 911, so why would that the slide noise be considered a negative?

[tydephan]

I don't mean this to be insulting, but you are following a false chain of logic here, and comparing an apple to an orange.

Certainly not insulting, but I do disagree. The principle issue is using methods of intimidation to deter the use of deadly force. While I agree that it is always a good thing to find alternatives to deadly force, I question the strategic downfalls of giving away your position.

I'll leave it at that however, as I am exhausted and do not have the mental capacity to continue my role in this discussion.

[ohioleadslinger]

Now here is another question. Finger on or off the trigger of the shotgun, handgun, flintlock, crossbow, potato gun....or what ever weapon you choose while clearing and or moving family/loved ones to safety?


Godbless......

[Shotgun Willy]

OFF, my gosh off! You're spooked and jumpy enough already don't blow someones head off just because you're jumpy. After all it could be a parent or loved one come home early. Racking the slide also gives them the chance to start hollerin'.
Oh yeah, safety off too.
Bill

[WhiteFeather93]

I used to live in Reading Pa which is about an hour from philly. I now live near Oley which isn't much farther just quieter. That part of PA is pretty bad. I had a couple break-ins and luckily most of them ended quickly and quietly. I have a 120 lbs German Shep. He doesn't bark for the heck of it. So when he does I pay attention. Staying upstairs is the best idea. Make sure there is no threat. If you hear anything out of the ordinary call 911. I know no one wants to bother the LEO's but they won't mind, better safe than sorry. And they'll probably say that. If five ten minutes go by and you hear nothing than I agree go down and just check. Don't let down your guard. Just be calm and check everything over. I think you have a lot of good ideas and what you are doing is fine. Staying upstairs is smart. Its easier to justify DF if your life or a loved ones is easily proved in danger. I'm not going to argue your choice of arms to each they're own. Just be proficient and knowlegable.

[Lurper]

Now here is another question. Finger on or off the trigger of the shotgun, handgun, flintlock, crossbow, potato gun....or what ever weapon you choose while clearing and or moving family/loved ones to safety?

What are the four basic safety rules?

The "Never put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire" rule should always be followed, even in self-defense situations. It is no faster to have your finger on the trigger than off.

[Bruxley]

I liked this thread. Very informative in alot of respects.

My 2 cents

I sense alot of 'let's get 'em' mentality. I can see why that would be given someone has just entered your home with your precious family inside. Nothing triggers the primals faster than that. But let's first remember, WHATEVER the conditions you consider to be justified for shooting......LAW ENFORCEMENT WILL BE INVESTIGATING. It's not going to be see bad guy, shoot bad guy, hung family, roll credits. And they will not soon stop asking many many many questions about why you did what you did, what was BEYOND what you were shooting at, where exactly was everyone in the house when you fired, etc. This will be QUITE thorough and you damn sure better have your ducks in a row.

Plus....you now have a big bloody mess in your home and alot of damage to repair. AND have exposed your family to tramatizing event and permanently changed your children.

The alternative scenario of racking the shotgun, or handgun, and clearing the house with intimidation may lack the 'thrill' of an action packed movie scene or the grunt grunt of 'This is MY house and I have DEFEATED the intruder' but if it works then God be praised, the ACTUAL mission has been acomplished. If it doesn't then you have a VERY VERY dangerous individual in your home and he knows YOU have the drop on THEM. It's 'Lay in wait' till THEY come to you or law enforcement does. An individual willing to go TOWARD the sound of a shotgun being racked is out of the league of anyone without EXTENSIVE training to be going after in CQC scenario. Best to park your ass in spot with good cover and ONE way into and WAIT.

All that said, remember shoot to DEFEND YOUR LIFE and that of your family, NOT because just because you think 'you can so you will'. Prosecuters and CIVIL LAWYERS make a LIVING jailing and suing people.

[kcshooter]

Bruxley

+1

Bingo, nail on the head, right on, exactly my point, etc.

[markj]

A potatoe gun can be deadly. No trigger tho

Never put yer bugger picker on the boom boom thing. Not until you is ready to boom boom. Unless it is cats and you have full auto

[ohioleadslinger]

That was my point. During all this thread I never saw anyone say finger off the trigger. Just rack, pull slide or cock hammer, clear the house or room or move family to safety.


Godbless.......

[kcshooter]

That was my point. During all this thread I never saw anyone say finger off the trigger

Seeing as how it's only the most basic safety rule, there really isn't much need to mention it.

[TheLastBoyScout]

Well what about manual safeties then, since safety was brought up

In one of my classes, the Gunny actually said his personal preference was finger off trigger and weapon on safe even when clearing a building known to contain hostiles; i.e. the safety comes off just long enough to shoot the tango, then goes back on immediately.

I based my personal defense choices off what I hear from him and my other Marine Officer Instructors. One of the (several) reasons my shotgun isn't my goto gun is that its safety (Mossberg tang-safety) is too tight to be worked quickly and reliably from a firing grip.

Personally, my pistol doesn't have an external safety, and my habit with my AR is to flip off the safety when I get a target, and not before.

[Lurper]

Once you have determined that there is a threat:
The safety should be off, finger off the trigger. I have yet to find a gun that fires without the trigger being pressed, when I do I will leave the safety on. Until then it is safety off, finger off the trigger.






Nothing is so loud in the bush as the sound of someone flipping the selector lever from safe to fire. Learned that one the hard way.

[kcshooter]

As far as my sidearm, I take the safety off as soon as I draw it from the holster if it is being drawn to stop a threat. By the time I've drawn it, the situation already warrants the possible need of force to protect myself or others. I won't drop my finger into the trigger guard until I decide to shoot as that's the way I've been taught and practice. While it may take a fraction of a second to take the safety off, it takes no more time to pull the trigger from outside the guard area than resting on the trigger. Once again, this is a debatable position and I'm sure others will do just the opposite, but I'm not afraid to take the gun of safe since I know my finger won't be on the trigger until I'm ready to make it go bang.

[Groundhog]

Prepare to repel boarders.

I like that.

Assuming you got a positive ID on the intruder, could wait behind cover, and were positive of Gun Safety rule#4 (the know what's behind your target part), it sounds like you covered your bases. You are certainly getting good opinions on all the other stuff to consider too!

[slow944]

My kids are now grown and I keep a Ruger Security-Six 357 and a Taurus MILPRO 40 or 45 on my nightstand next to the LED flashlight. I've got a Ruger Mini 14 w/30rd mag and a 12ga, semi-auto shotty in the closet with 00 buck. And a very noisey little dog as a first alert along with an alarm system. But if a BG really wants in your home all they have to do is feed the dog or worse, thay also know it takes 20-30mins for the police to arrive on a burgler alarm. I don't take any chances with my familys welfare. Since all the bedrooms are off a single hall with a door I usually keep that locked at night also just to slow them down.

[BillCA]

Real world time.

Fill plastic bag with empty soda/beer cans. Have a friend wait until you're fast asleep at oh-dark-thirty and then pour the bag onto the kitchen floor. Wake up. Move to your selected position. Stop. Deep breath & self-assess.

• Blurred vision from accumulated "sleep" gunk in your eyes?
• Stuffy nose/sinuses from sleeping - are your sniffling from that or a runny nose?
• Some folks (smokers or not) cough when first getting up. Did you? How much?
• How does the body feel? Stiff? Any hands/arms tingling from awkward sleeping positions?
• Auditory - can you hear anything over your heart pounding in your ears and/or your own breathing?

When alerted and you hop out of bed, your first actions are to acquire arms and try to assess the immediacy of the threat. Donning shoes or clothing can wait until you know if time permits. You may not appear to be the most "macho" guy, standing at your bedroom door au naturel or in your BVD's with Mr. Willie peeking out the fly, but it's better than being caught while getting dressed. Sliding feet into good fitting slippers or loafers may protect your feet against debris during a battle. I'd save noisy flip-flops for the beach.

Tactically, sending a dog out to investigate the sound is good, provided the dog will bark aggressively at a non-family member. And provided you will maintain self-control if the dog is killed.

I won't count on the racking shotgun being a deterrent and therefore recommend against using it as a tactic. In my view, a bonafide armed intruder's first indication that a resident is present should be the muzzle flash of your weapon. Unarmed intruders first see your ultra-bright tac-light blinding them.

My preferred shotgun load is #4 buck for HD. However, I typically have two handguns available as first response. The ammo-carrier sling has six 00-buck and 4 slugs, for if it comes to that point I'm rounding off corners with slugs to reach the threat.

Tactically, unless there is some reason to leave the room (children for example), stay put. If your door is at the top of the stairs, a kneeling position allows you to see further away from the stairwell and will probably be more surprising to the intruder.

Living with 3 cats taught me the tactical advantages of night lights in strategic places, such as the wall next to stairwells, in bathrooms to illuminate hallways, etc.

[Groundhog]

I'm guessing it might be a problem if you can sleep through a tornado like I can?

[kcshooter]

In my view, a bonafide armed intruder's first indication that a resident is present should be the muzzle flash of your weapon. Unarmed intruders first see your ultra-bright tac-light blinding them.

Solid on all counts, but I have an issue with this one comment. How do you distinguish between armed and unarmed? If you use your tac light, and they are armed, all that "don't rack the shotgun cuz they know where you are" stuff goes out the window, and they shoot in the direction of the light. If you don't use your tac light, what if they aren't armed?

If you shoot an unarmed intruder, even in your home, even if legal in your state, YOU MAY STILL HAVE TO DEFEND YOURSELF IN COURT! This can be extrodinarily expensive, time consuming, and stress inducing.

I stand by my original idea of racking the shotgun as a deterant. It's worked before, a lot, and may keep me from shooting the unarmed. If they are unarmed, chances are they aren't coming upstairs. If they are, I still have the drop.

Anyway, if I am positive there is an intruder, I want 911 one hear me call out to them that I am armed and the police are on their way. They leave, good. They stay, I have a strong case for self defense and most likely would not be charged.

[Lurper]

If you shoot an unarmed intruder, even in your home, even if legal in your state, YOU MAY STILL HAVE TO DEFEND YOURSELF IN COURT!

Again, know your state laws. In many states you are protected from civil suits if you are not charged in the shooting (it was ruled justified). In many states as well, the burden of proof lies with the state. Meaning that the state must prove that the shooting was not justified, not vice-versa.

I have to agree w/Bill, the only time an intruder should know where I am is when he sees my muzzle flash - armed or not.

[kcshooter]

Knowing the law doesn't mean an overzealous D.A. or prosecuter won't try to charge you. And although you are more protected in many states against civil suits, I'm more worried about the criminal charges.
True, the burden lies with the state, but that means a trial, and you most likely will be found not guilty. However, I don't know if you've ever had to defend yourself in court but the costs, in the form of money, time, and mental health, are much more tramatic than you can imagine.
Personally, I would prefer an open-and-shut case of self defense.
Or even better, an incident that ends without a shot having to be fired in the first place.

[ohioleadslinger]

True, the burden lies with the state, but that means a trial, and you most likely will be found not guilty

.

Actually the burden lies with you. You must show at least in Ohio that you believed yourself or your family to be in "In danger of serious bodily harm" . At least its marginal if at home that you have a duty to retreat. No castle doctrine here....


Godbless......

[BillCA]

Solid on all counts, but I have an issue with this one comment. How do you distinguish between armed and unarmed? If you use your tac light, and they are armed, all that "don't rack the shotgun cuz they know where you are" stuff goes out the window, and they shoot in the direction of the light. If you don't use your tac light, what if they aren't armed?

As I mentioned in a previous post, you can have a tactical advantage for less than about $35.00. Night lights placed in strategic locations can illuminate a dark house quite well enough to allow you to see someone and if they are carrying something in their hand(s).

As to an intruder in your home -- most laws that require retreat also imply that retreat must be carried out only if you can do so safely. Doubtful if an intruder is already in your home. Double that if you have family living with you as you cannot abandon children to the whims of a felon.

Armed or not - does it matter?
Why are there so many daytime burglaries? Because a thief who steals for monetary gain wants to avoid contact with residents. Thinking this through a bit;

1. Most people sleep in their homes at night.
2. A burglar, seeking solely monetary gain, avoids occupied homes.
3. Burglary of an occupied residence is not the act of a rational mind.
4. Someone breaking into my home is a felon (burglary)
5. Gov't analysis shows a high percentage of burglars obtain a kitchen knife for defense during a burglary and discard it in a drawer before leaving.
6. A thief will flee once he discovers the dwelling is occupied. (does not apply if said thief will commit opportunity crimes-against-persons).

I have a felon in my home, at night, which indicates an irrational mind. Since most people are home at night to sleep, one must assume that thievery is not his primary goal. And one must assume, statistically, there is a high probability that he has armed himself after entry.

I am now defending myself and/or family, friends or guests, in the dark, against an irrational felon, who is likely armed, who's primary intent is more than mere theft.

A confrontation inside a home is likely to occur at a distance of 21-feet or much less. At 21-feet an attacker can disable a LEO before he can draw his gun. Average room distances are about 10-feet. In this close-range confrontation the intruder is wide awake, dressed, has brought any equipment he needs and is prepared for a fight-or-flight situation. The resident is likely in thin pajamas, his BVD's or nothing at all, tired yet pushed by adrenaline, possibly unable to see clearly (sleep, lack of glasses, darkness, etc.) -- so the intruder has a huge advantage.

So I'm defending my home against an irrational felon in close quarters, who may be armed, who's intent is likely more dire than mere theft and who has many tactical advantages over me or my family.

Why should I not be in fear for my life?

Nota Bene: I don't want to be forced to kill anyone and if I see he is unarmed, I may give him every opportunity to surrender or flee. I'm under no obligation to believe any statements an irrational felon makes about his intentions. Nor am I under any obligation to believe he is harmless because he dropped a weapon.

[skywalkrNCSU]

ok i have a simple solution for the racking the slide being used as a deterrent. all we need to do is make a small speaker that fits into a corner in the main room of your house. you have a remote control so that when you press the button a slide racking sound is made from that speaker. now the intruder thinks there is someone in the house with a shotgun but he has no idea where it came from. also have this setup so that when an alarm is set this sound is made.

million dollar idea i tell ya.