Bank/store robbery? - Page 3

Groundhog · May 13, 2007, 11:09 PM

revjen45, I have no idea what a FAS-3 is. Care to educate me?

Newerguy, I was in no way attempting to compare first aid with a shoot first scenario the way you described it. I did like your comparisons though. All I was trying to say was that the same way the instructor in that particular class refused to deal with the possibility of death, it seems to me, in my short time on these forums, that we refuse to deal with the possibility of a shoot first situation being a valid possible course of action. While we may all agree or disagree about the merits, intelligence, or wisdom of shooting first, the issue I have is that as soon as someone suggests an action of any kind, they get jumped on.

Surely no one reading this thread could accuse me (or the OP for that matter) of being a HERO type, gung ho to shoot the goblin at first opportunity. We don't even have a scenario here where you could say there is a way it should go one way or another. The entire opening statement was too general. I simply advocate not busting someones chops for asking the question or suggesting maybe it should be considered. On the other hand, I have no problem with a well thought out response as to why it should or should not be done. Once I took the time to read nbk2000's posts, and get him to clarify some stuff for me, nearly everything sounded reasonable.

I agree on most all of the points made by those saying DON'T SHOOT FIRST.

1. Prevention
2. Evasion
3. De-escalation
4. Be a good witness
et cetera

I shot an IDPA match today and after witnessing how "well" we all did against paper with only the slightly hopped up adrenalin of competition, I have NO illusions that any kind of a shoot out would go well or be beneficial. It is greatly comforting to me to know that my odds of being involved in a shooting scenario of any kind is pretty remote. It's even better to know that within those small odds, the odds of being in a situation where you might have to decide to shoot first would be so fractionally small that they are just about nil. That said, there still might be that situation out there and a person shouldn't be belittled for thinking about it.

Glenn E. Meyer · May 14, 2007, 11:00 AM

FAS-3 is a course from Marty Hayes in Washington state, IIRC. Marty comes from the Ayoob school of thought. His wife Gila wrote a book for women that summarizes Ayoob's lectures pretty well.

rifleer1 · May 14, 2007, 11:37 AM

"Protecting the public is the job of the police. They have virtual immunity for any consequences..."

Ummm... not so much. In fact popo normally have more people playing monday-morning quarterback than anybody else.

Besides for the criminal hearing possibility that the citizen deals with-

-IA investigation to determine whether actions complied with departmental policy... guess what, if they don't then NO DEPARTMENT ATTORNEY to protect the officer in criminal/civil court proceedings, and possible suspension/termination.

-The media jumping on said Officer in MOST cases:

"Why did the Officer fire his entire magazine, isn't that excessive?"
"Couldn't the Officer have talked the badguy down?"
"The badguy didn't know it was a Police Officer."
"The Officer should've done ____________ before confronting the subject."

It really all is just situationally dependent. It would really have to be pretty bad for me to risk my freedom and rights on a victim knowing to say "I felt my life was threatened by the bad guy", because if they didn't feel like their life was threatened, then here in NC you shouldn't have shot someone to defend them.

Groundhog · May 14, 2007, 11:57 AM

I also have heard that in some states a CCW actually has more immunity than the police do. Shoot, if you believe GunGuys.com, Texas gives us license to murder!

Lurper · May 14, 2007, 12:39 PM

In AZ and several other states, you are immune from civil suit as long as the shooting is justified. I am not sure that the police or municipalities have such protection.

CyberSEAL · May 20, 2007, 06:43 PM

Quote:

You're in a 7-eleven or bank, getting a drink or filling out your deposit slip. Next thing you know a robber or thug pulls and threatens the clerk with it.

I'm in an enclosed space with a BG brandishing a weapon...do I feel my life is in danger? Yes.

May 13, 2007, 11:09 PM	#51
Groundhog Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 406	revjen45, I have no idea what a FAS-3 is. Care to educate me? Newerguy, I was in no way attempting to compare first aid with a shoot first scenario the way you described it. I did like your comparisons though. All I was trying to say was that the same way the instructor in that particular class refused to deal with the possibility of death, it seems to me, in my short time on these forums, that we refuse to deal with the possibility of a shoot first situation being a valid possible course of action. While we may all agree or disagree about the merits, intelligence, or wisdom of shooting first, the issue I have is that as soon as someone suggests an action of any kind, they get jumped on. Surely no one reading this thread could accuse me (or the OP for that matter) of being a HERO type, gung ho to shoot the goblin at first opportunity. We don't even have a scenario here where you could say there is a way it should go one way or another. The entire opening statement was too general. I simply advocate not busting someones chops for asking the question or suggesting maybe it should be considered. On the other hand, I have no problem with a well thought out response as to why it should or should not be done. Once I took the time to read nbk2000's posts, and get him to clarify some stuff for me, nearly everything sounded reasonable. I agree on most all of the points made by those saying DON'T SHOOT FIRST. 1. Prevention 2. Evasion 3. De-escalation 4. Be a good witness et cetera I shot an IDPA match today and after witnessing how "well" we all did against paper with only the slightly hopped up adrenalin of competition, I have NO illusions that any kind of a shoot out would go well or be beneficial. It is greatly comforting to me to know that my odds of being involved in a shooting scenario of any kind is pretty remote. It's even better to know that within those small odds, the odds of being in a situation where you might have to decide to shoot first would be so fractionally small that they are just about nil. That said, there still might be that situation out there and a person shouldn't be belittled for thinking about it. __________________ Greg Miller "Remember, a valid point never overrules a family tradition." - Me

May 14, 2007, 11:00 AM	#52
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	FAS-3 is a course from Marty Hayes in Washington state, IIRC. Marty comes from the Ayoob school of thought. His wife Gila wrote a book for women that summarizes Ayoob's lectures pretty well. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

May 14, 2007, 11:57 AM	#54
Groundhog Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 406	I also have heard that in some states a CCW actually has more immunity than the police do. Shoot, if you believe GunGuys.com, Texas gives us license to murder! __________________ Greg Miller "Remember, a valid point never overrules a family tradition." - Me

May 14, 2007, 11:37 AM	#53
rifleer1 Member Join Date: May 15, 2000 Location: charlotte Posts: 62	"Protecting the public is the job of the police. They have virtual immunity for any consequences..." Ummm... not so much. In fact popo normally have more people playing monday-morning quarterback than anybody else. Besides for the criminal hearing possibility that the citizen deals with- -IA investigation to determine whether actions complied with departmental policy... guess what, if they don't then NO DEPARTMENT ATTORNEY to protect the officer in criminal/civil court proceedings, and possible suspension/termination. -The media jumping on said Officer in MOST cases: "Why did the Officer fire his entire magazine, isn't that excessive?" "Couldn't the Officer have talked the badguy down?" "The badguy didn't know it was a Police Officer." "The Officer should've done ____________ before confronting the subject." It really all is just situationally dependent. It would really have to be pretty bad for me to risk my freedom and rights on a victim knowing to say "I felt my life was threatened by the bad guy", because if they didn't feel like their life was threatened, then here in NC you shouldn't have shot someone to defend them.

May 14, 2007, 12:39 PM	#55
Lurper Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2006 Posts: 943	In AZ and several other states, you are immune from civil suit as long as the shooting is justified. I am not sure that the police or municipalities have such protection.