Aluminum Jacket Bullets Back...?

JeepHammer · December 30, 2017, 09:54 AM

I just got an advertisement for pistol bullets that have aluminum jackets.
Didn't this die back in the 70s? A quick, violent death...

For anyone that doesn't remember that short, but stupid fad...
Aluminum is crazy hard to get out of a barrel!
Being young & dumb, I tried it, but a chisel is about the only way to get aluminum out of rifling!

I hope this is new/old stock someone stumbled on to and they aren't being produced again...

higgite · December 30, 2017, 10:49 AM

Can you share who you got the advertisement from? I don't want any, I'm just curious. I wasn't reloading back in the '70s and had not heard of aluminum jacketed bullets until now.

reddog81 · December 30, 2017, 11:34 AM

There was a post yesterday in the revolver section on this forum with someone advertising a new aluminum bullets. According to their website it is a aluminum bullet with a molybdenum coating.

The loaded rounds are about $3 each or you can get the bullets for about $1 each. I'd assume they won't become popular at this price point.

NoSecondBest · December 30, 2017, 11:57 AM

I've been loading for over fifty years and I don't recall any aluminum bullets. Doesn't mean they didn't happen, just wondering if you're confusing them with aluminum cases, not bullets? Aluminum once it's oxidized is one of the hardest abrasives there is. It would not only be difficult to remove from a barrel, it would simply eat one up in short order.

JeepHammer · December 30, 2017, 12:13 PM

Yup, nasty bullets were a bad idea.
The ONLY effective use for aluminum bullets was in a sabot to protect the barrel.
That's why they died quickly and should have stayed dead...

As for the advertisement, it popped up on facebag, one of this targeted ads that pop up when you post something about reloading, even if it's in a private message to someone.

Aluminum oxide is horrendously abrasive, the base for most sandpaper out there, and once it's imbedded in the barrel, it just keeps cutting.
There is a reason we use lapping/grinding compound that DOESN'T use aluminum oxide for the abrasive in a lot of applications...

Didn't click on the ad, don't know if it's new/old stock that's for sale or someone is trying to revive this stupid idea, just thought I'd ask, and maybe warn people it's out there again...

Reddog 81 said aluminum was advertised on this forum, so maybe this is a thing again, and I'm SURE that some fanboy will pump them as the second best invention since gunpowder...
I don't care what coating you put on aluminum, it's not got enough mass to make a good projectile, the coating will have to be thicker than the rifling is deep to keep aluminum from building up on the rifling, and from the sound of it, they want WAY too much money for such a bad idea all the way around...

...And I'm STILL mad about my 7mm-08 barrel from 40 years ago!

higgite · December 30, 2017, 01:34 PM

A new member named "4-sigma" joined the forum the day before yesterday and has posted 5 drive-by spams (so far) with link to a website for his all aluminum "training" bullets and ammo. Not aluminum jacketed, but all aluminum apparently, with a magic coating. Claims less recoil for training youngsters to shoot big boy rifles without flinching. I quit reading at that point.

reddog81 · December 30, 2017, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeepHammer

Reddog 81 said aluminum was advertised on this forum, so maybe this is a thing again, and I'm SURE that some fanboy will pump them as the second best invention since gunpowder...
I don't care what coating you put on aluminum, it's not got enough mass to make a good projectile, the coating will have to be thicker than the rifling is deep to keep aluminum from building up on the rifling, and from the sound of it, they want WAY too much money for such a bad idea all the way around...

You are correct - very low mass at moderate velocities. They were marketed as training loads. Most calibers have about 40 grain bullets doing 1,000 to 1,400 FPS. A novel idea but very over priced and apparently bad for your barrel.

I believe there is a market for training loads in the common calibers but I'd use light powder coated lead bullets. A 100 grain powder coated lead bullets doing 1,000 FPS out of a .30-06 is something just about anybody could shoot all day and if you can't handle that you'd never be able to shoot a full strength .30-06 anyways.

res45 · December 30, 2017, 03:30 PM

Quote:

The loaded rounds are about $3 each or you can get the bullets for about $1 each. I'd assume they won't become popular at this price point.

And they will die a fast death again at that price!

hounddawg · December 30, 2017, 03:45 PM

5.7x28mm FN Ammunition SS195LF is a 28 gr copper jacketed aluminum core bullet. I find it hard to believe that anyone would ever make a non coated aluminum bullet other than some home hobbyist who has zero formal education in metallurgy.

The Mohs scale of mineral hardness and scratch resistance. It is a measurement of a minerals ability of a harder material to scratch a softer material.

Copper scores a 3 on the Mohs scale while Aluminum oxide scores a 9.

I have heard of people who have successfully made zinc bullets, perhaps that is what some here are thinking of

BBarn · December 30, 2017, 04:33 PM

When introduced in about 1980, Winchester's Silvertip Handgun bullets had aluminum jackets. Within a decade or two the Silvertips had one of two silver colored alloys (depending on the cartridge). Not sure what alloy(s) Winchester uses today in the handgun Silvertip bullets and ammo. But at one time (and perhaps even today on some calibers) Winchester has successfully used handgun bullets with aluminum jackets.

Mobuck · December 31, 2017, 02:12 PM

"When introduced in about 1980, Winchester's Silvertip Handgun bullets had aluminum jackets."
I used those in 38 and 44 SP and they worked like gang busters.

NoSecondBest · December 31, 2017, 04:18 PM

Quote:

When introduced in about 1980, Winchester's Silvertip Handgun bullets had aluminum jackets. Within a decade or two the Silvertips had one of two silver colored alloys (depending on the cartridge). Not sure what alloy(s) Winchester uses today in the handgun Silvertip bullets and ammo. But at one time (and perhaps even today on some calibers) Winchester has successfully used handgun bullets with aluminum jackets.

I shot thousands of them, and they were not aluminum.

Archie · December 31, 2017, 06:41 PM

i used Winchester Silvertip handgun ammunition in .38 Special in the early 1980s, I thought the jackets were aluminum, but cannot prove it one way or another. I think I still have some in the basement somewhere.

Hits on metal targets at less than twenty-five yards appeared to be a fireball. Something seemingly ignited. It wasn't the metal target, I'm pretty sure it wasn't the lead core. Didn't bother the revolver, didn't leave any (unusual) residue in the case.

higgite · December 31, 2017, 07:44 PM

FWIW, from Winchester’s FAQ: http://www.winchester.com/learning-c...s/faq.aspx#q30

Quote:

30. What it the purpose of the aluminum nose cap on the Super-X® Silvertip® bullet?
The addition of this nose cap helps to protect the soft lead core of the bullet in the magazine and during the chambering of the round in order to improve magazine and during the chambering of the round in order to improve downrange accuracy, and provides delayed expansion for deeper penetration.

Quote:

41. How does Silvertip® differ from other hollow points?
The Silvertip® uses unique jacket materials custom tailored for specific calibers in the line to assure maximum performance. There are actually two different jacket materials used, one for the high velocity calibers, like 357 Magnum and one for the low velocity calibers like 38 Special. This enables Winchester to custom tailor performance for each caliber and ensure rapid energy deposit.

BBarn · January 1, 2018, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoSecondBest

I shot thousands of them, and they were not aluminum.

The original Handgun Silvertips (~1980) had aluminum jackets. As the line was expanded, and over time, more than one jacket material was used. So the ones you fired might not have had aluminum jackets. And it's also likely that Winchester hasn't used aluminum jackets for their Silvertips in recent years.

Check out the original Olin Corporation patent for the Silvertips. The patent number is 4,193,348.

Patent title: Projectile for centerfire pistol and revolver cartridges.

From the patent abstract:

"A hollow point lead bullet is provided with an aluminum jacket which allows the cartridge containing the projectile to feed reliably in auto-loading pistols and yet does not restrict normal expansion of the bullet upon impact with the target."

m&p45acp10+1 · January 3, 2018, 08:15 AM

The only aluminum bullets I have ever held were in the belt of the late Mr. Clayton Moore (The Lone Ranger). At a public appearance he let me and my grandpa inspect one. Grandpa said it sure felt light. Mr Moore said it was because they were aluminum.

JeepHammer · January 3, 2018, 08:20 AM

An old gunsmith I used to know had an aluminum cartridge (fake) that had an engraved 'Lone Ranger' instead of the headstamp, said Clayton Moore gave it to him in the 50s.
One of his prized possessions, and he had a LOT of interesting & one of a kind firearms.

**Mike Irwin** · January 3, 2018, 09:11 AM

"I shot thousands of them, and they were not aluminum."

As initially introduced, yes, Winchester Silvertip handgun bullets had an aluminum jacket. This was later changed to a nickle plated copper jacket.

The hope was that the preperforated aluminum would allow better bullet expansion, but supposedly there were also a lot of issues, among them being that aluminum oxide, which forms on aluminum within minutes of exposure to air, is abrasive as hell and harder than barrel steel.

RC20 · January 3, 2018, 01:30 PM

I missed all that. Most interesting.

JeepHammer · January 4, 2018, 05:59 PM

Anyway, it's back, something else we have to watch for...
Bad idea then, bad idea now!

FrankenMauser · January 5, 2018, 02:58 AM

Why re-invent the wheel when you can re-invent failed ballistics experiments...

North East Redneck · January 5, 2018, 02:54 PM

Never heard of these before. Thanks for the info guys.

Jim Watson · January 5, 2018, 03:37 PM

First generation Silvertip low velocity like .380, .38, and .45 had aluminum jackets. They had a cannelure with a little bit of lube to prevent aluminum fouling. A store here got a batch without lube and a customer's gun was badly aluminum fouled. WW replaced the ammo but he was still left with aluminum deposits in his bore. I don't know how or if he got it out.

December 30, 2017, 09:54 AM	#1
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	Aluminum Jacket Bullets Back...? I just got an advertisement for pistol bullets that have aluminum jackets. Didn't this die back in the 70s? A quick, violent death... For anyone that doesn't remember that short, but stupid fad... Aluminum is crazy hard to get out of a barrel! Being young & dumb, I tried it, but a chisel is about the only way to get aluminum out of rifling! I hope this is new/old stock someone stumbled on to and they aren't being produced again...

December 30, 2017, 12:13 PM	#5
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	Yup, nasty bullets were a bad idea. The ONLY effective use for aluminum bullets was in a sabot to protect the barrel. That's why they died quickly and should have stayed dead... As for the advertisement, it popped up on facebag, one of this targeted ads that pop up when you post something about reloading, even if it's in a private message to someone. Aluminum oxide is horrendously abrasive, the base for most sandpaper out there, and once it's imbedded in the barrel, it just keeps cutting. There is a reason we use lapping/grinding compound that DOESN'T use aluminum oxide for the abrasive in a lot of applications... Didn't click on the ad, don't know if it's new/old stock that's for sale or someone is trying to revive this stupid idea, just thought I'd ask, and maybe warn people it's out there again... Reddog 81 said aluminum was advertised on this forum, so maybe this is a thing again, and I'm SURE that some fanboy will pump them as the second best invention since gunpowder... I don't care what coating you put on aluminum, it's not got enough mass to make a good projectile, the coating will have to be thicker than the rifling is deep to keep aluminum from building up on the rifling, and from the sound of it, they want WAY too much money for such a bad idea all the way around... ...And I'm STILL mad about my 7mm-08 barrel from 40 years ago! Last edited by JeepHammer; December 30, 2017 at 12:20 PM.

December 30, 2017, 03:45 PM	#9
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	5.7x28mm FN Ammunition SS195LF is a 28 gr copper jacketed aluminum core bullet. I find it hard to believe that anyone would ever make a non coated aluminum bullet other than some home hobbyist who has zero formal education in metallurgy. The Mohs scale of mineral hardness and scratch resistance. It is a measurement of a minerals ability of a harder material to scratch a softer material. Copper scores a 3 on the Mohs scale while Aluminum oxide scores a 9. I have heard of people who have successfully made zinc bullets, perhaps that is what some here are thinking of __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

December 31, 2017, 06:41 PM	#13
Archie Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2000 Location: Hastings, Nebrasksa - the Hear Posts: 2,209	i used Winchester Silvertip handgun ammunition in .38 Special in the early 1980s, I thought the jackets were aluminum, but cannot prove it one way or another. I think I still have some in the basement somewhere. Hits on metal targets at less than twenty-five yards appeared to be a fireball. Something seemingly ignited. It wasn't the metal target, I'm pretty sure it wasn't the lead core. Didn't bother the revolver, didn't leave any (unusual) residue in the case. __________________ There ain't no free lunch, except Jesus. Archie Check out updated journal at http://oldmanmontgomery.wordpress.com/

January 3, 2018, 08:15 AM	#16
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	The only aluminum bullets I have ever held were in the belt of the late Mr. Clayton Moore (The Lone Ranger). At a public appearance he let me and my grandpa inspect one. Grandpa said it sure felt light. Mr Moore said it was because they were aluminum. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

December 30, 2017, 10:49 AM	#2
higgite Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2010 Posts: 1,025	Can you share who you got the advertisement from? I don't want any, I'm just curious. I wasn't reloading back in the '70s and had not heard of aluminum jacketed bullets until now.

December 30, 2017, 11:34 AM	#3
reddog81 Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2014 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,634	There was a post yesterday in the revolver section on this forum with someone advertising a new aluminum bullets. According to their website it is a aluminum bullet with a molybdenum coating. The loaded rounds are about $3 each or you can get the bullets for about $1 each. I'd assume they won't become popular at this price point.

December 30, 2017, 11:57 AM	#4
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	I've been loading for over fifty years and I don't recall any aluminum bullets. Doesn't mean they didn't happen, just wondering if you're confusing them with aluminum cases, not bullets? Aluminum once it's oxidized is one of the hardest abrasives there is. It would not only be difficult to remove from a barrel, it would simply eat one up in short order.

December 30, 2017, 01:34 PM	#6
higgite Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2010 Posts: 1,025	A new member named "4-sigma" joined the forum the day before yesterday and has posted 5 drive-by spams (so far) with link to a website for his all aluminum "training" bullets and ammo. Not aluminum jacketed, but all aluminum apparently, with a magic coating. Claims less recoil for training youngsters to shoot big boy rifles without flinching. I quit reading at that point.

December 30, 2017, 04:33 PM	#10
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	When introduced in about 1980, Winchester's Silvertip Handgun bullets had aluminum jackets. Within a decade or two the Silvertips had one of two silver colored alloys (depending on the cartridge). Not sure what alloy(s) Winchester uses today in the handgun Silvertip bullets and ammo. But at one time (and perhaps even today on some calibers) Winchester has successfully used handgun bullets with aluminum jackets.

December 31, 2017, 02:12 PM	#11
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	"When introduced in about 1980, Winchester's Silvertip Handgun bullets had aluminum jackets." I used those in 38 and 44 SP and they worked like gang busters.

January 3, 2018, 08:20 AM	#17
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	An old gunsmith I used to know had an aluminum cartridge (fake) that had an engraved 'Lone Ranger' instead of the headstamp, said Clayton Moore gave it to him in the 50s. One of his prized possessions, and he had a LOT of interesting & one of a kind firearms.

January 3, 2018, 09:11 AM	#18
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	"I shot thousands of them, and they were not aluminum." As initially introduced, yes, Winchester Silvertip handgun bullets had an aluminum jacket. This was later changed to a nickle plated copper jacket. The hope was that the preperforated aluminum would allow better bullet expansion, but supposedly there were also a lot of issues, among them being that aluminum oxide, which forms on aluminum within minutes of exposure to air, is abrasive as hell and harder than barrel steel. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 3, 2018, 01:30 PM	#19
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	I missed all that. Most interesting. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

January 4, 2018, 05:59 PM	#20
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	Anyway, it's back, something else we have to watch for... Bad idea then, bad idea now!

January 5, 2018, 02:58 AM	#21
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Why re-invent the wheel when you can re-invent failed ballistics experiments... __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

January 5, 2018, 02:54 PM	#22
North East Redneck Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2012 Location: Berkshire Hills Posts: 741	Never heard of these before. Thanks for the info guys. __________________ NRA Patron Member SAF Life Member GOAL Member

January 5, 2018, 03:37 PM	#23
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	First generation Silvertip low velocity like .380, .38, and .45 had aluminum jackets. They had a cannelure with a little bit of lube to prevent aluminum fouling. A store here got a batch without lube and a customer's gun was badly aluminum fouled. WW replaced the ammo but he was still left with aluminum deposits in his bore. I don't know how or if he got it out.