Pepper spray

[FLA2760]

Hi leadcouncil
I love my Glock27. I think with my daughter that the .40 just kicks too much for her. If and when she moves to Fl we will try alot of different guns so we can get her a good CCW / Home gun. My shotgun (Mossberg500) scares her just to look at it! lol
Steve

[Derius_T]

LeadCounsel Wrote:

Also, in my opinion, if you can't handle a garden variety self-defense problem with 1 magazine, you're in over your head. It's either because
A) you're a really really bad aim, in which case you need more practice
B) you are severely outnumbered and have no business drawing your gun, you should leave the situation immediately
C) you are severly outnumbered and should draw your gun and leave the area immediately

1st, exactly what is a "garden variety" self defense problem? Using that term implies that there is a common thread in self defense shootings? Is that what you are implying? And saying that you are 'in over your head' in a self defense situation if you need more than one mag? Who knows what dangers you may face? Who knows how many assailants? Those of us who have trained (at least a little) know there is no such thing as a predictable, or "garden variety" situation. To even say such a thing makes me wonder at your education or credability in these matters.

What if you are severely outnumbered as you put it....but CANNOT leave? What then?

I have no business drawing my gun in defense because I am outnumbered!? What better reason could there be for needing to defend yourself?

If you really are a lawyer, I sure as hell don't want you ever defending me if I ever have to defend myself......

[k9lwt]

If deadly force is justified you in NO WAY have to use spray first, you can go right to deadly force.

[threefivesevenmag]

Carrying an extra magazine is not a bad idea. It's not hard to justify in court. I also would never spray and pray. I don't think anyone in their right mind would. It's for malfunctions. They can happen. They will happen.

What if, in your lethal encounter, you can't get a perfect grip on your firearm or are being beaten from behind. It's not a glorious thing, any fight. If you're really fighting for your life and the chips are down, it's possible your grip might not be perfect on said Glock or Springfield and a jam could certainly occur. Take that into consideration. That's why I carry a back up gun, always a revolver.

Also, I don't hang out with bums. But, I've been firm and nice to them. Sometimes, they take an extra foot...to annoy and get more money from people not willing deal with a standoff. They sometimes follow and get in their prey's faces. I have personal experience in this. I feel I can handle myself in that situation. But what if it is a woman or man who can't brush the bum off? What if he puts his hands on her or gets too close for comfort? Having OC wouldn't be a bad option for her or him if they deem it proper.

And also, being a lawyer, you must know you can justify pretty much anything you put your research, mind, and performance into. If I was on a jury of non-gun people it'd be hard for me to convince them that by wearing a vest...one wasn't "looking" for a fight. Because...why wear a vest in what most people feel is a "safe" no-gun society? The other side would try to smear you and say you are walking towards danger, not walking away. They'd say your vest was like your cop badge and not at all just part of saving your own skin, but a license to not back away. Think of it in that manner and I feel carrying a spare mag or speedloader in case of malfunction isn't half has hard to defend against in court.

[leadcounsel]

As for the extra mags, some think it's a good idea. I think it's unnecessary and could come back to bite you by portraying one as being "overly zealous."

As for the being over one's head and the garden variety... ask yourself who is "likely" going to be preying on you and their motivations. While we don't always know and cannot prepare for every situtation, we can take a pretty good guess based on our personal lives. It varies from person to person and situation to situation.

For ME (and me only), in public, in the RARE (keep this in mind, it's not an everyday occurance) situation that a perp comes against me to use deadly force it's LIKELY one of the following reasons, and it's likely 1 or 2 armed perps:

1) They want to rob me;
2) They want to car jack me;
3) They want to toy with me;

In any of these "garden variety" scenarios, my 10 rounds of .40 will be more than sufficient if I need to draw and have the opportunity to safely draw and shoot. If they're taking property (with the threat of harm), I'll not risk my life to defend it UNLESS I can safely do so. Now, if I think they're intent on doing me harm, make no mistake I'll fight back.

Let's assume an extremely unlikely situation where three perps with guns spring at me to rob me. Am I going to "Doc Holiday" draw on them? No. I'll comply until one of two things happens: 1) I can safely draw and defend myself without risking getting shot or 2) If they have, through their actions, indicated that they are interested in killing me despite my cooperation. In any of these scenarios, I'm glad I wear a vest. If I have to outdraw them, I'll likely get shot at and my vest covers most of my vitals and 1/3rd of my body. My comment about being outnumbered and NOT drawing a gun is based on the situation where several perps clearly have the jump on you, but only want to rob you. Compliance is the best idea until 1 and 2. Because perps aren't trained soldiers with a cause, but instead criminals of opportunity and only want some fun and some cash, I understand that they'll flee at the first opportunity. A two magazine gunfight is the thing of wars, law enforcement, and movies; not civilian concealed carry.

Now, is it possible that someone wants to put a hit on me and send and army of thugs prepared to take on Chuck Norris. Is it possible that the Mexican gureilla army will be invading my city and I'll need to lay suppressing fire as I make my way to cover? Is it possible that my gun will malfunction? It is possible, but pretty darn unlikely. In the former events if you think you're going to get into that serious of a gunfight, I respectfully disagree. In the event you can't trust your gun, GET A DIFFERENT GUN! A revolver won't JAM, which is the main reason I hear for carrying extra mags. I carry a gun that I am absolutely positively 100% certain will fire each and every time that I squeeze the trigger and I would absolutely stake my life on it each and every time. Now, in a WORST CASE 1 in a million chance that I was BOTH attacked AND my gun jammed, it takes less time for me to reach up, clear the round, and shoot, than it would to drop the magazine out, get another one, postion it, put it in, rack the slide, and shoot. I could clear three misfires in the same time it takes to replace a single mag. AND, more importantly, if it is a failure to extract, replacing the mag is not a solution that will extract the shell casing. So, whether same mag or new mag, you've got to manually extract the casing. Since the possibilities of this are so REMOTE IMO, I don't see the point in carrying and extra mag. If MY logic doesn't agree with your logic, then so be it. For that extra space, I would rather carry a multi-tool, folding knife, or flashlight.

As for wearing the vest, everyone practices wearing safety equipment that is relatively cheap and easy to use. Do you wear a seatbelt and have a car with an airbag? Do you wear a motorcycle helmet or leather jacket? Do (did) you wear protective sporting equipment in your sporting days? I could go on and on and on... bottom line is it's cheap, flexible, lightweight, and if I carry a gun it only makes sense to protect myself agaisnt the very weapon I carry and the threat level necessary to make me use it. Body armor is proven to save lives of soldiers, law enforcement, and civilians alike. With the fact that fewer of our brave soldiers have died in the last 3 years in a WAR ZONE than civilians shot in the torso in the last 3 years in the US by small caliber handguns, I'll wear the vest thank you.

[leadcounsel]

threefivesevenmag:

if wearing a vest means I'm looking to get shot, then by that same logic wearing a seatbelt means you're looking for a car accident; having fire house insurance means you're looking for a fire; and carrying a gun means you're looking for a gunfight.

of course we both know that's not the case in any of these examples. wearing a vest is easily justifiable. we live in a violent and unpredictable world and have MANY products that protect us from many unlikely events (e.g. motorcycle helmets, plastic elbow and knee protectors for inline skating and skateboarding, plastic mouthguards for sports, steel toed boots for construction, safetly glasses for shooting, etc.). why are all of these acceptable buy my wearing identical equipment for as equally unlikely of an event cause for criticism in your eyes?

[threefivesevenmag]

whatever. have fun.

[leadcounsel]

...and be safe doing it!

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Leadcounsel - I ain't your daddy or instructor. I have clearly pointed out that there is a well known legal and training literature on the use of force and the force continuum. It is easily available. It is your responsibility to educate yourself for your own benefit.

I'm just pointing out for other newbie readers that your opinion is way, way against modern countervailing doctrine and they should take what you say with a grain or pound of salt.

As I said, I would be interested in the legal literature that you have read or the training experiences that you have had that lead you to your opinion. Thus, as this was a law class or a research class - cite precedents and literature that support your position that there is not a force continuum of which OC spray is part and that the most legally justifiable and tactically sound doctrine is the dichotomy you propose.

Like I said, I'm not doing your research for you. A legal data base, gun forum, etc. search will bring up tons. If you want me to do your work, you can pay for my professional time at rates comparable to what I charge other lawyers as an expert witness. Otherwise, you need to learn - Grasshopper.

[leadcounsel]

Mr. Meyer:
You got that right you ain’t my daddy. As I understand it you’re a professor with some defensive shooting training who probably does a fine job at advocating the 2nd Amendment and gun rights, assuming you TEACH students rather than blast them about being wrong with no follow-through, which only turns people off to your position. You’re the one calling others out about how WRONG we are in our opinion and posting on a chat room. BACK IT UP! I’m also not employing you for your opinion, Mr. Expert Witness. You’re here on YOUR time, not MINE. Add something worthwhile….

As far as the force continuum, I am very aware of it. Let’s also not forget the most important rules of self-defense. 1) Don’t be there, and 2) if you are there, leave. Training, mental and physical fitness are key underlying portions of the force continuum. When I was in college I worked as a campus security guard for 4 years and was trained on the force continuum and carried the usual non-lethal tools. After college I worked as an unarmed undercover retail store loss prevention detective, and was trained in military/LEO apprehension, takedown, pressure point compliance, subdual, and hand cuffing techniques and was tested regularly and had to apply those techniques (successfully 100% of the time) many times when apprehending violent shoplifters who fought back and were sometimes armed with handheld weapons (but when possible the safest bet is to let an armed shoplifter walk). During this period of time we were not allowed to carry OC per policy. I occasionally wore a stab vest or ballistic vest as it was a hostile environment. Some of my co-workers were put in the hospital at times with bad injuries from escalated events, so it was necessary to be prepared. In addition to my years of security training for situational awareness, sizing up one’s opponent, and LEO/military subdual techniques I have studied Judo since the mid-1990’s, kickboxing since the mid-1990’s (having taught kickboxing for 6 months), and sprinkled in a little tae kwon do (for the culture mainly). In addition to my training, I am 6’1” and weigh a solid 200 lbs and am exceptionally physically fit. I played collegiate contact sports, postgraduate intramural sports, and continue to play individual and team sports. I can currently run 3 miles in 22 minutes at 1 mile elevation in Colorado (which would qualify me for the Army, Navy, or Air Force, and almost qualify as a Marine recruit). I can bench press 250 lbs, bicep curl 130, do 13 consecutive pull-ups, 100 consecutive sit-ups, and squat 400 lbs any day of the week.

As a side note, I have a lot of admiration and respect for LEO and our military and have often considered it as a career choice. My shout goes out to those brave and honorable men and women.

As for lethal training, I spend countless hours shooting from standing, kneeling, and prone positions with different caliber handguns and rifles and consider myself not a marksman, but a damn good shot and lethal at any range within a guns’ inherent ability. I also practice shoot, move and shoot and quick follow-up shots, double tap and quick reload techniques. As a requirement for the Colorado CCW, an 8 hour course in tactics and legality is required. I am also VERY familiar with the LAW in Colorado regarding self defense and home defense so I know, legally, what level of force is allowed in self defense at any given time. I also mentally prepare and visualize (which Easterners believe is nearly as good as practice) for different scenarios which could REALISTICALLY happen, IN MY OPINION. I’ve cited those situations above. Time is valuable and I’m not going to waste it thinking about every possible ‘what if’ scenario as time is better spent thinking about the REALISTIC or MORE LIKELY situations that one would be confronted with and how to best deal with those; nor am I going to carry a Batman utility belt like you and your training advocate.

Now, between MY training, experience, knowledge, and physique, OC is an unnecessary tool and one that would gather dust. Cops need concern themselves with tasers, OC, detainment, restraint techniques, and lengthy firefights. Their duty is to serve and protect and catch bad guys. I’M NOT A COP. My duty is self-defense and self-preservation while not breaking the law or unnecessarily endangering innocents. For a civilian, situations are either non-lethal and avoidable or lethal and must be addressed appropriately; there are no gray areas needing to be addressed with OC. If the situation is non-lethal I’ll leave. If that’s not an option and there is a non-lethal aggressor, I’ll put the aggressor on his back, maybe through a table or on the concrete before he knows what hit him; yes my training makes it that fast and I am that good. If necessary I’ll choke him unconscious in fewer than 10-15 seconds or put him into a submission hold, possibly using one of many pressure point compliance techniques I have in my martial arts toolbag. No untrained person is going to get up from the throw, and it’s tough to fight back when your unconscious or in a hold. If the situation is lethal, I’ll leave if possible. If it’s not an option, I’ll draw and use deadly force if legally warranted without a moment hesitation. I also wear a level II vest to counter any common caliber handguns that a thug is likely to use against me in a deadly encounter. The vest covers about 1/3rd of my body, is completely lightweight and flexible, covers most of my vitals, and will stop bullets up to a soft-jacket .357 or a .40, including a 9mm, .38, .380, .22, etc. Since most trained and untrained people shoot enter mass, that's the best bet for survivial in a gunfight, averaging 3 shots. He who lives longest, WINS.

As for technique, reading a book or two isn’t “training” as you like to call it. I’ve read plenty of books too on this matter too. That is far from making you an expert. In a previous posting regarding home defense in the middle-of-the-night scenario, I advocating taking a shotgun or .223, locking yourself in a room with the gun trained on the door, and putting on a ballistic vest and helmet and calling the police and waiting, and it’s a good idea to use electronic stereo noise amplifying and dampening ear protection for the ensuing shots fired, if necessary. I also advocating that you should not clear a house, but if it were absolutely necessary to leave the room (e.g. to retrieve a child for instance) using a handgun for maneuverability and a free hand. That is the correct method and the one that LEO and everyone here agrees with except you, from my impression of your post. Let’s talk about your utility belt for a moment…. What exactly is the purpose of carrying TWO knives (in addition to two flashlights and a gun with two magazines)? In case you shoot through all 30 bullets and draw one of your knives to fight the ninjas in your bad dreams and the ninja kicks it out of your hand, so you have to draw another knife? What “training” advocates carrying “A gun +2 mags, OC, two flashlights, and two knives?” Where is the “Flight” in the FOF in your arsenal that you advocate so much, Batman? And how in the world do you carry all of this gear as a “respected” professor, presumably in professional tucked in shirt and slacks? Finally you advocated using the .223 for HD because it doesn't penetrate as far as the .40 or OO buckshot. Actually, you're wrong. Check out www.theboxotruth.com under shotguns. .223 and 9mm penetrate through 12+ sheets of drywall whereas the OO buckshot penetrates "only" 8. All of them "overpenetrate" so there is no real advantage to any in that category, contrary to what you advocate.

As for posting my sources, I have done so on many occasions. I’ve posted links to handgun stopping power, links to ballistic testing, and copied relevant Colorado law where applicable. As for being knowledgeable about the law in other states (I do hope you know the law is not always national, but deviates from state to state regarding things such as self defense and CCW), that’s not my job to know the law in the individual states, nor can I advise in states where I’m not licensed. My legal discussions are generally prefaced by “In Colorado…”

While I agree with some of your postings, in my opinion your theories of self-defense are a little skewed and not based on ANY real world experience. You were scared a few times in your life so you got a gun and some "training." Running around in a building and shooting at targets and reading a few books hardly makes you and expert on all topics relating to self defense. I’m more apt to listen to trained police and soldiers, but while their training is second to none, even then their training is for different situations that many civilian situations.

What really irks me is that you have the peppers to call others (not just me, but many others) out but fail to produce ANY documents supporting YOUR position in your attacks, whilst chastising US for ours. If you were MY professor, I’d grade YOU quite harshly on this tactic in a forum where people are looking for answers, opinions, experiences, facts, and conversation. Despite that it's free, don't let that be an excuse for you to be lazy with your opinions or "facts", call others out, and tell everyone it’s because you said so, which is circular logic and useless.

Why am I on this forum? TO LEARN something useful. You have yet to provide anything useful to me and seem to like to debate my opinion and experiences and the law in Colorado; all of which YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT.

[Derius_T]

Leadcounsel Wrote:

Because perps aren't trained soldiers with a cause, but instead criminals of opportunity and only want some fun and some cash, I understand that they'll flee at the first opportunity.

You understand that they will flee at the first opportunity? For your sake, lets hope so. But what if they see a little opportunity for some more 'fun' as you put it, and after they have your wallet, decide to hurt you anyway?

A two magazine gunfight is the thing of wars, law enforcement, and movies; not civilian concealed carry.

No one is looking for a '2 magazine gunfight'. No one is looking to hurt anyone, except for the bad guys. And as for having 2 magazines for defense, its better to have and not need, than need and not have. Much the same reason you wear that vest everyday for right?

Now, is it possible that someone wants to put a hit on me and send and army of thugs prepared to take on Chuck Norris. Is it possible that the Mexican gureilla army will be invading my city and I'll need to lay suppressing fire as I make my way to cover?

I guess you think your being smart with a comment like that? It really just leads to further questioning of your experience or maturity level.

I carry a gun that I am absolutely positively 100% certain will fire each and every time that I squeeze the trigger and I would absolutely stake my life on it each and every time.

There is no such thing. Especially not worth staking your life on. Even revolvers fail...and so do rounds....but its your life....

I could clear three misfires in the same time it takes to replace a single mag.

Its good to know that you are so gun savvy. You could clear 3 misfires before I can eject and replace a single magazine? I'd like for you to share whatever your smoking on.....

I hope for your sake you get some practical experience in case you ever do need to defend yourself....

[Derius_T]

Leadcousel Wrote:

When I was in college I worked as a campus security guard for 4 years and was trained on the force continuum and carried the usual non-lethal tools. After college I worked as an unarmed undercover retail store loss prevention detective, and was trained in military/LEO apprehension, takedown, pressure point compliance, subdual, and hand cuffing techniques and was tested regularly and had to apply those techniques (successfully 100% of the time) many times when apprehending violent shoplifters who fought back and were sometimes armed with handheld weapons (but when possible the safest bet is to let an armed shoplifter walk). During this period of time we were not allowed to carry OC per policy. I occasionally wore a stab vest or ballistic vest as it was a hostile environment. Some of my co-workers were put in the hospital at times with bad injuries from escalated events, so it was necessary to be prepared. In addition to my years of security training for situational awareness, sizing up one’s opponent, and LEO/military subdual techniques I have studied Judo since the mid-1990’s, kickboxing since the mid-1990’s (having taught kickboxing for 6 months), and sprinkled in a little tae kwon do (for the culture mainly)

Wow, you sound like a real tough guy.......or a mall ninja.....

In addition to my training, I am 6’1” and weigh a solid 200 lbs and am exceptionally physically fit. I played collegiate contact sports, postgraduate intramural sports, and continue to play individual and team sports. I can currently run 3 miles in 22 minutes at 1 mile elevation in Colorado (which would qualify me for the Army, Navy, or Air Force, and almost qualify as a Marine recruit). I can bench press 250 lbs, bicep curl 130, do 13 consecutive pull-ups, 100 consecutive sit-ups, and squat 400 lbs any day of the week.

WOW! Can you grunt and beat your chest like the manly gorilla you are too? What in the sam hill does what you can bench press have to do with self defense involving firearms? Who are you trying to impress? It doesn't matter if you can squat and lift a buick if you take a double tap to your COM, or a bat to the back of your head. I can shoot sub 2" groups at 25 yards. What you gonna do he-man....catch 'em in your teeth?

You make yourself sound like a real jackass.....cue superman music.... :barf:

[leadcounsel]

DT -- if you missed the point, sorry. It's about Mental AND Physical preparation. Can you run 3 miles and still shoot your 2" MOA at 25 yards?

How about a physical fight with an aggressor that lasts one minute before he pulls a shank, and after a minute of wrestling with him you have literally your first chance to get your gun from you IWB position. Too tired to get it?

And the physical and martial arts training is so that I CAN take a punch to the head or a shot to my vest and continue to fight back. I can also physically fight off would be aggressors trying to fight or disarm me. Can you?

That's the point.

And yes, next time you are at the range, try this timed exercise. Manually clear a round pretending it to be jammed, or even two or three (and ask yourself why you'd be carrying such a POS anyway). Then time yourself dropping the mag, clearing the jam, retrieving new mag, inserting, racking the slide. I can probably clear FIVE jams in 5 seconds, with 5 more shots in my 10 round mag. Depending on where your spare mag is I bet it takes you five seconds to replace a mag. And, what happens if your POS jams in the second mag? Do you carry a 3rd or 4th? If you aren't confident in a one mag system for your gun, get another gun and use reliable ammo. BTW with the FTF in a revolver, pull the trigger again. It is instantaneous. It is what it is.

And, I wear a vest. While you're brusing my ribs, I'm making a whole large enough to toss a cat through your chest...

PS- Malls need love too

[Derius_T]

Leadcounsel Wrote:

DT -- if you missed the point, sorry. It's about Mental AND Physical preparation. Can you run 3 miles and still shoot your 2" MOA at 25 yards?

Most likely not, but again, what does this have to do with a self defense situation. If I ran 3 miles, I am most likely clear of the danger.....

And yes, next time you are at the range, try this timed exercise. Manually clear a round pretending it to be jammed, or even two or three (and ask yourself why you'd be carrying such a POS anyway). Then time yourself dropping the mag, clearing the jam, retrieving new mag, inserting, racking the slide. I can probably clear FIVE jams in 5 seconds, with 5 more shots in my 10 round mag. Depending on where your spare mag is I bet it takes you five seconds to replace a mag. And, what happens if your POS jams in the second mag? Do you carry a 3rd or 4th? If you aren't confident in a one mag system for your gun, get another gun and use reliable ammo. It is what it is.

And you have to ask yourself, if you need to clear 5 jams in 5 seconds from the SAME MAG, whats to say the 6th won't jam too? And I have practiced replacing my magazine many times, granted under optimal conditions, and can do it in less time than it takes to talk about it. If you want to sit there clearing jams while I replace my mag and shoot, thats your business. Try it in a combat situation sometime. You WILL drop that mag and replace it, as quickly as you can.

And, I wear a vest. While you're brusing my ribs, I'm making a whole large enough to toss a cat through your chest..

WOW, that must be one of those .100 caliber mutant alies guns you carry. Cat sized hole....get real mall ninja...

[leadcounsel]

DT- we're clearly talking past each other....

Running and weight training and martial arts are ways of physical conditioning to increase your ability to function when your body wants to quit due to fatigue or anxiety or even if you get shot or injured. People that CCW often forget that your trigger finger isn't the only thing that needs to be conditioned.

For those that HAVE been in REAL fights, it's difficult to think clearly and for your body to function properly. Try doing some exercise to simulate a physical struggle and then draw your gun and see how accurate you shoot. It's more difficult because your heart races, your palms are sweaty, you start breathing harder, sweat is in your eyes, etc. making combat more difficult. Coincidence that our LEO and soldiers do PT?

I don't see why the connection is so difficult....

"tossing a cat through" is called sarcasm. Sorry if you were absent that day. I'm not literally going to toss a cat through a .40 hole in a perp's chest. However, to the perp the hole will probably feel that big and it won't matter if it's really only a quarter that can fit there, because he'll soon be in a pine box and I'll have a couple bruised ribs that will heal in a month.

As far as the jams, again you're missing the point. I don't carry a POS for a gun nor do I load POS ammo. My odds of needing deadly force are probably 1 in a million. But, since it's very important, I do carry. The odds of my gun failing once at any given time are probably 1 in 10,000. Failure twice in a row is probably 1 in 50,000. The odds of my gun failing AT THE SAME TIME AS I GET ATTACKED are so remote that I never consider it. If it fails once, I clear the jam in less than one second and move on (BTW much faster than reload, no doubt about it). The odds of my gun failing a second time are nearly impossible and in the realm of "ain't never gonna happen" category. AND, IN THE COSMIC UNIVERSALLY WEIRD case that it does, you know what. I'll clear it a second time while you're fumbling for your magazine and be shooting my 3rd round and my 4th round and probably my 5th round while you're taking aim with your fresh magazine. If I didn't trust my semi auto, I'd carry a revolver where the odds of failure are so far removed as to not have any concerns. But if the ammo fails, pulling the trigger a second shot is instantaneous.

Please, carry a second mag if you're that concerned about it. Along with OC and two knives and two flashlights, I think it's useless.

[JuniorCommando]

JuniorCommando - contact me soonest.

Erick

[wayneinFL]

our CCWs really hanging by one or two bad incidents, those of you carrying 30+ bullets REALLY think that even in a worst case gang-jumping scenario that you're going to be shooting a full magazine, reloading and shooting another magazine!

90% of the arguments against carrying a spare mag are for jams.

As far as the jams, again you're missing the point. I don't carry a POS for a gun nor do I load POS ammo. My odds of needing deadly force are probably 1 in a million. But, since it's very important, I do carry. The odds of my gun failing once at any given time are probably 1 in 10,000. Failure twice in a row is probably 1 in 50,000. The odds of my gun failing AT THE SAME TIME AS I GET ATTACKED are so remote that I never consider it.

No. I know you don't carry a POS, but the best auto in the world will fail if you obstruct the movement of the slide, or fire with an incorrect grip. Chances of jamming durting a fight are so remote it can't happen? If you ever have a jam it will be while a couple of guys are beating the snot out of you. You are more likely to be shooting while being knocked off balance, shooting falling, shooting lying on the ground, or firing from a retention position and smacking the slide against your vest.

My $.02 worth.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Leadcounsel - whatever. You're Superman. And frankly, this is reached a point that is time wasting. That might be taken as rude but that's it.

Your doctrine stands against probably ever trainer out there.

You state as a civilian it is not necessary to use nonlethals such as OC because you are a martial arts superstar. Good for you. So your plan may work for you as you will suceed in all hand to hand combat.

The rest of us might prefer not to roll around in judo throws. I have a scar on my leg from doing that in my youth. I also didn't enjoy a couple of years ago, John Holschen of Insights pressing my old bean into the mat. Thus, if I can spray some intermediate threat, I'm going to.

There's always someone big and tougher in physical fight. Also, when in contact, a little guy can stick his finger in his eye. Distance is your friend.

About visual imagery training - good stuff. However, running around a range isn't FOF and imagery doesn't lead to the unexpected.

Good luck to you. I think I 'll pass on future educational experiences for you. You know it all. Let your disciples flourish.

[leadcounsel]

Good points W. I wonder which is easier, particularly dodging attacks from attackers:

1) rack the slide to clear a jam with a spare hand or
2) drop the mag, retrieve spare mag, insert spare mag correctly taking your eyes off target, rack the slide at least once to clear the jam and possibly need a second rackage for loading chamber....

I must ask again, if there is such a REAL concern about Failure to feed or extract, why not carry a revolver? Most gunfights are 3 shots. Revolvers often have 5,6,7 and even 8 shots.

[leadcounsel]

Glenn,
First, if I'm outnumbered by assailants that's a situation I leave or draw on because it's an imminent lethal situation.

If you draw OC to address a non-lethal situation, what prevents your opponent from drawing his gun and, standing over your chalk outline giving his police statement claiming he legally thought that you were drawing/holding/aiming a lethal weapon at him. In a blur a can of OC can easily be confused with a lethal weapon. And there sure are going to be alot of witnesses that say that you drew first and aimed a palm-sized object at him.... Sure raises the level to reasonable doubt against homicide and offers a legit excuse for self defense... Here is the law in COLORADO.

CRS 18-1-704 (2) Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and:
(a) The actor has reasonable grounds to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury;

Hence, there isn't a reasonable jury in my state that will convict when you drew a weapon, even a non-lethal weapon, first and the shooter 'reasonably thought' it was a lethal weapon and you meant him imminent great bodily injury and shot first in self defense.

To that end, someone draws any weapon on me, I'm not waiting to see what that weapon is and they ain't gonna have time to second guess their weapon choice, which "sured looked like a bersa thunder in that instant that I drew and protected myself from the imminent lethal force."

IMO, as a lawyer with a real understanding of self defense laws IN COLORADO, drawing ANYTHING from your pocket and aiming it in a hostile situation is grounds for lethal self defense immediatley, no questions asked. As soon as you preceive a lethal threat it's time to defend yourself with a lethal threat. The assailant goes for a pocket in a hasty move, I'm drawing and aiming immediately. If it looks like a weapon, I'm not waiting to find out what it is. For instance, last summer a cop was cleared of a shooting under the following facts. The cops were answering an emergency call from a home. The cop was entering a bedroom window under a warrentless search (or maybe a search warrant; irrelevant) and saw a man with a silver object in his hand in the bedroom. The cop shot and killed the man in the mans' own bedroom. The object? A silver can of soda (or beer, don't recall).

Don't believe me. Try this with a police officer sometime. In a tense situation, I double dare you to make a sudden move for a coat pocket and aim something harmless small and black/shiny at a cop and see how quickly you're staring at the business end of a pistol.

I think your civilian self defense techniques are not only bunk, but dangerous and can put you in more threat than you contemplate.

[wayneinFL]

... I wonder which is easier, particularly dodging attacks from attackers:

1) rack the slide to clear a jam with a spare hand or
2) drop the mag, retrieve spare mag, insert spare mag correctly taking your eyes off target, rack the slide at least once to clear the jam and possibly need a second rackage for loading chamber....

You still don't see the point. When your mag ends up in the gutter or full of mud while clearing a double feed, mag gets knocked out in a fight, baseplate gets knocked off in a fight, #1 won't work. Gotta go to #2 or back up gun.

I know none of this stuff happens to you in a fight. Your Glock is made by Austrian elves who work for Glock in the off season, and it's covered with the same magic dust that holds up Santa's sleigh. My Glocks are the plain old Glocks from Georgia. No magic dust there in GA, just plain old dirt.

why not carry a revolver?

Actually, most of the time I do. 5 shot snubby.

[leadcounsel]

My magazine in my XD (which is the gun I carry) requires deliberate force on the release button to drop the mag... I'm talking "deliberate" force. Another reason why I carry the XD. The baseplate doesn't really slide off as easily as you may believe. It also takes deliverate force with a tool to remove it.

My magazine isn't going to get knocked out of my gun; Jet Li isn't going to reach up and grab the slide release and disassemble my gun in a split second; the floorplate isn't going to slide off; the bullets aren't going to FTF and if they do there's a simple fix -- a one second slide rack. Problem solved.

I am glad that you carry a revolver though. Problem solved. Next topic.

[NarcSgt]

Wow talk about off subject. For those that are still on subject there are three things to be aware of on the subject of OC.

First, know your state’s laws in carrying any kind of chemical agent.

Second, do not rely on what you may have seen in movies or have read about the effectiveness of OC. I can tell you from first hand experience some people are not affected by it at all and some do not feel the effects until their own adrenaline dump has worn off. If it is going to work against an attacker the effects will show immediately, if you don’t see this occur then choose another weapon.

Third, and probably most important, do not take legal advice from online forums.

[Ichiro]

LOL! What we all need is a revolver that spews pepper spray in addition to blasting cartridges. Instead of the internal lock, S&W could install a pepper spray button and canister. Draw your weapon and push the button to spew pepper spray first. If that doesn't work, the trigger finger gives you access to lethal force.

I get a kick out of the hand-to-hand combat experts with too much confidence. The fact that you can break bones, dislodge joints, serve up instant knockouts, etc., does NOT mean that you should engage predators instead of escaping the situation. The very best martial artists are brought down to the predator's level once a weapon or a group of attackers is produced. If survival is your MO, you do not engage; you escape. Pepper spray, guns, and tactics are all means to DISengage, deter, and get the hell out of Dodge.

To stay on-topic, this issue can be complex. You need to assess the situation correctly. If there's no weapon, get the pepper spray in your hand. If there IS a weapon, you need to get a handle on your gun. Instinct will guide your behavior, if you trust it. But I'm still in favor of the pepper spray spewing revolver.

~Ichiro

[Derius_T]

Leadcounsel, it is finally painfully obvious to me that your combat expertise and super ninja skills are far superior to mine, so I think this talk is over, at least for me. I bow before your almighty mall ninja greatness..... :barf: