Future for Ithaca Shotguns?

[jaguarxk120]

Take a look at shotgunworld in the Ithaca forum. Ithacamatt posted pictures of the factory and work people.

[jmr40]

I'm sure the Ithaca's are well made guns. I've never owned one, but all I've seen have impressed me. I have doubts about how many will pay that price for a well made pump though. There are many, many, well made guns that used to be made that are no longer in production. I believe it is just a matter of time before Ithaca joins their ranks, again. The fact that they have been in and out of business multiple times, for about as long as I've been buyng guns does not give a lot of confidence.

If I buy a pump, I'm buying a gun to throw in the bottom of a muddy duck boat and use as a boat paddle if necessary. I want a gun that I can bring home at the end of the day, hose the mud off outside and let it dry in front of the fire at night and be ready to do it again the next day. If it gets lost on the bottom of a lake, I'll not shed a tear, just go out and buy another. If the finish gets worn off and metal rusted that is what they make Krylon for. I can buy 3 American made pumps for the same money that will do what I ask from them just as well as the Ithaca. If I'm spending that kind of money it won't be for a pump.

While they are great guns, I believe their time has come, and gone. Just like many other great guns no longer in production.

[jaguarxk120]

So that's what the gun industry is comming to - throw away guns.

When will we do that to people?

[BigD_in_FL]

As soon as O care decides who lives or dies - and that starts in 2014

Remember Soylent Green?

[MattShlock]

Why is anyone sure the reincarnated Ithica is well made? 'cause they said so and demonstrated a few selling points -- really!? The fact that it's expensive means... it's expensive. Alot of people swear Remington 870's are good because of their two-century old name but they STINK these days.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go hire some unemployed shotgun machinists from Smith & Wesson, Hatfield, and/or Ruger, lease "Parker Bros." from an old widow, "A.H. Fox" from a Trust Fund, or "Winchester" from Olin Corp. to make and MARKET an old (read: obsolete) design, leveraging "Made in America," knowing there are enough collectors that I can at least break even in the short term...

[Clevinger]

Why is anyone sure the reincarnated Ithica is well made? 'cause they said so and demonstrated a few selling points -- really!? The fact that it's expensive means... it's expensive. Alot of people swear Remington 870's are good because of their two-century old name but they STINK these days.

What's a good pump shotgun then? Mossberg?

[Virginian]

Might want to check your cynicism gauge Matt, you might start running low.
But we know Remingtons stink, because you said so though, right?

[jaguarxk120]

Matt you need to start reading the gun news. Winchester is now owned by FN. Ruger stopped making their O/U because of quality problems, and S&W imported their doubles.

So far your running in empty. I don't think you could tell a quality gun from a factory second from Mossberg.

[drcook]

Why is anyone sure the reincarnated Ithica is well made? 'cause they said so and demonstrated a few selling points -- really!? The fact that it's expensive means... it's expensive. Alot of people swear Remington 870's are good because of their two-century old name but they STINK these days.

I for one spent a lot of years working as a tool and die maker and working on high tech weapons systems during Reagan's military buildup to keep your sorry, well just say to help keep you safe from the communist threat at the time. I built satellite parts, built progressive dies to make electrical terminals, worked on the molds to make Spirograph toys, machine parts, cutting tools, lots and lots of stuff. Then I spent 28 yrs writing software, programming computers and building computers for people.

I understand grades of steel. I understand precision measuring instruments, I still have a box full of them. I understand the complexity of writing software to make the CNC machines do what is needed.

My background lets me know quality when I see it.

I was in the factory. There were no areas off bounds to us. The Ithaca people took us to each and every part of the factory. I recognized their procedures, they were surprised I knew what they were doing.

They are working towards building the best pump shotgun bar none, precision wise. Their procedures are geared towards precision precision precision, so the mistakes of the past won't be repeated.

One can argue about the design, after all, it is a very old design, that is not the point. The point is their execution of that design. If they decided to use the Mossberg 500 design, or the Rem 870 design and build it as a precision instrument, the end result would be the same.

There are still people left, some present company excluded, that still want to contribute to the local economy, to keep their fellow citizens working, that appreciate fine stuff and don't want to buy the absolute cheapest P.O.S. product that was made overseas SIMPLY to be cheaper.

There are extremely well made firearms made in Italy, Japan, Turkey, Czechoslovakia, that isn't the issue. Some products are just offshored to be cheaper, to get better return on stock holder equity. Etc.

There are people that have first hand, eyes on knowledge of what they are doing, instead of conjecture and speculation and downright ignorance of the present day Ithaca company.

You know the good thing about this ? No one is forcing you to buy one. So you don't have to, and your input on the subject really influences no one.

Really doesn't.

[shortwave]

Guess the shotgun crowd is no different then the rest of the firearms crowd when it comes to opinions.

Some swear by the old Colt .45 semi-auto and down any of the rest of the populace that buys/builds a .45 in another brand.

Some can't afford an old Colt .45 or just don't care for the design or have never shot one but their buddy ( whom, to them is the firearm guru of the decade and doesn't like them so they must be junk ...and doesn't mind telling everyone his/her opinion) says they are junk so don't buy one.

Since we're throwing opinions around about todays 870's and the 500 Mossy...here's mine. I don't think either one is better then the other. Both companies are mass producing a product as cheaply as possible, stamping out parts(steel and plastic) and both turn out their share of lemons. Have cycled both brands new out of the box and the internal parts were so rough that they felt like they were full of sand. Take em apart and you'll see why. Clean em up...polish some rough edges and they smooth out nicely.

On the topic of whether Ithaca will stay in business? I hope so. Have always liked the feature's on the 37 as well as the factory smooth operation. Have done a little machining myself and have to agree with drcook as to the reason...better quality control and finished parts.
And yes, you pay for better quality/ workmanship.

Caution:

Don't get your tights in a wad...just another strokes opinion!

[Sheikyourbootie]

I get the impression that they are doing fine with their core products. Here is a response I got from my inquiry about the release date on the Phoenix over/under,

"We have spent over two years in the design and prototyping the Phoenix Over/Under Model. The initial release was scheduled for first shipment in April 2013. With the demand for our core products since the first of the year, the decision was made to push back the release to the third or fourth quarter so as to fulfill the present back orders.

We have added both additional employees and machinery to achieve this date. The excitement both in the plant and in the field has us committed to reach these milestones.

Ithaca Gun Company thanks you for your patience in this matter.

[BigD_in_FL]

And yes, you pay for better quality/ workmanship.

But that is the rub, don't ya see? Folks here on on a similar forum are more interested in cheap,almost throw away guns, from China, Philippines, etc - anywhere as long as it is cheap, regardless of the quality. That explains why Remington has cut corners to produce the Express line, why Stoegers, Baikals, and other crap is so prevalent

[jaguarxk120]

Cheap or inexpensive it does not matter, yes some people want a gun just so it go's bang when you pull the trigger.

And yet there are many people out in todays market willing to pay for higher quality shotguns.

Local to me is a small custom car place, the guy will build a replica of just about any classic car / race car made. He's not hurting for customers and he has had to move three times expanding his shop each time. So there ARE people with the disposalable income that want better guns weather they be O/U's or pump.

[Virginian]

But arguing about it here is not going to determine if there are ENOUGH people who are willing to spend the money on an Ithaca pump to keep them going. Not just a good gun, but an Ithaca pump. Not addressing the quality one way or the other, I just do not like the Ithaca design, or the feel of them. I don't like the bottom loading BPS either, and I have owned and shot plenty them and they never bobbled once.
Like I said, time will tell.

[drcook]

Not addressing the quality one way or the other, I just do not like the Ithaca design, or the feel of them. I don't like the bottom loading BPS either, and I have owned and shot plenty them and they never bobbled once.

This is one of the most honest reasons for not having an Ithaca 37 (of any age, old or new) and/or a Browning BPS.

AND this is OK !!!

I don't like over/unders. I think they look clunky.

I appreciate the art work of side by sides. There are some of the old time single shot shotguns that are also works of art.

But I don't have a desire to own one. They don't fit my needs.

We own 2 870 youth model 20ga's for my daughter, simply because I could buy an off the shelf gun with a 12 LOP and 18 to 21 in barrel. 1 is for general use, one was factory drilled and tapped for a scope and has a rifled barrel for deer. It can have the other barrel swapped on for turkey.

There is one downside to the new Ithaca 37's -vs- the old guns. That is weight. Due to different loads and regulations (steel, non-toxic shot) and some other factors, current day Ithacas are about 2 lbs heavier than their counterparts from the 40's up to the very early 60's.

My 16ga guns weigh right around 6lbs and a couple ounces, The new ones, all weigh over 8lbs (12,16 and 20, not sure what the 28 weighs).

This weight differential is largely due to the barrel. They have switched to using 4140 steel and making the barrels thicker.

I will say though, thicker barrels started long before the current iteration of Ithaca. I have barrels made at King Ferry and at the Ithaca plant in New York that are thicker than my guns from the late 40's into the mid 50's.

My old guns are a dream to carry and are lively and easy to track onto a rabbit scooting through the briar bushes.

[Clevinger]

There is one downside to the new Ithaca 37's -vs- the old guns. That is weight. Due to different loads and regulations (steel, non-toxic shot) and some other factors, current day Ithacas are about 2 lbs heavier than their counterparts from the 40's up to the very early 60's.

My 16ga guns weigh right around 6lbs and a couple ounces, The new ones, all weigh over 8lbs (12,16 and 20, not sure what the 28 weighs).

You are correct that the new 37s weigh more, largely because of the thicker barrel with chokes. However, their website states that the 12 gauge weights 7.6 pounds rather than the 8+ pounds you've posted.

I intend to use mine for turkey and deer, so I actually see the increased weight as a plus to reduce recoil on the turkey loads and slugs.

[drcook]

that is what you get from posting from memory,

my bad..........

I have done that before, even though I know what they weigh.

For some reason the nbr 8 has gotten stuck even though it is erroneous.

Thanks for the catch

I have a scale here at the house that was purchased to weigh guns with.

The 16ga Ithacas that I built up for my wife weigh within an ounce or 2 of her youth sized Remington 1100 20ga.

I was concerned that they would end up too much for her to comfortably carry out in the woods. Then I would end up carrying my gun and hers..............

[shortwave]

Quote:
And yes, you pay for better quality/ workmanship

But that is the rub, don't ya see? Folks here on on a similar forum are more interested in cheap,almost throw away guns, from China, Philippines, etc - anywhere as long as it is cheap, regardless of the quality.

Yes BigD, unfortunately I do see. And you are so correct.
This is a trend that did not just start in the gun industry(as well as most other industries) and I'm afraid will continue to get worse.

This is the very reason I'm hoping a quality gun maker such as Ithaca continues to do well. I own both types of guns. Cheap and a bit more expensive. I understand the difference in both and don't expect the same quality out of the cheaper ones that I do out of the higher quality guns. Although both go bang when the triggers pulled, I don't expect the cheaper built guns to last a lifetime like some of the higher end ones have. Or operate as smooth out of the box.

Course, if I take one of the cheaper ones out and it keeps giving me trouble and I know it's the gun, it doesn't hurt my feelings near as bad when I finally get fed up and wrap it around a tree.

[drcook]

Course, if I take one of the cheaper ones out and it keeps giving me trouble and I know it's the gun, it doesn't hurt my feelings near as bad when I finally get fed up and wrap it around a tree

Hopefully enough of the niche manufacturers will follow the lead of Shiloh. From Shiloh's website:

and a lifetime warranty to the original owner.

I am going to point that out to the folks at Ithaca, since their business model is so close to Shiloh's. If you think Ithaca folks are a bit fanatical, you should read some of the posts the Shiloh folks do.

While some get a bit overboard in their zealousness, the brand loyalty is deserved.

If a company gives the original owner a lifetime warranty against materials, design and workmanship, people will want to buy that product. You can always tell abuse and accidents, but I know for a fact that if a problem occurs with one of my Shilohs, or my CPA Stevens (which are also warrantied for life) that I can simply send them back and they will be repaired.

If fact, I have done so.............

So wouldn't it be easier to want to own a more expensive gun if the tree option need never be taken ?

[ClydeFrog]

I saw an impressive NIB Ithaca 12ga pump with a 20" barrel & extended 8 shot magazine. I think it's the Defender model.
The pump shotgun looks kinda cool. A Ithaca pump 12ga is what the main character of the 1980s fantasy/sci-fi film: Streets of Fire & the "Reese" character of Terminator(1984) used. www.IMFdb.org
The website sale price is $599.00 USD which seems steep for a 12ga pump shotgun. As noted, Ithaca the brand has been in turn-around. The new Ohio factory sounds + but Im not sure if the factory name merits an extra $100.00-$200.00 USD compared to a Remington 870 Express or Mossberg 500/590.

At any rate, I think I would add a Black-T/Bearcoat/Cerakote to the Defender for duty use or protection.

CF

[drcook]

It is not the factory name adding on the extra money, it is the precision being built into the gun.

My daughters 870 Express has a media blasted receiver and matte finished barrel. An Ithaca receiver is surface ground for one and machine engraved.

I didn't bother to look if they were polishing the receiver or if they were simply blued after being ground.

While on the subject of receivers, Ithaca has done away with roll engraving the scenes. They are cut on with a CNC machine. Roll engraving didn't always produce the desired results. In fact, some of the earlier Ithacas had the game scenes hand chased (engraved) after the roll engraving didn't do as good as it could. Some of the more astute collectors/aficionados can tell a hand chased gun simply by looking at it.

Also sometimes other issues were caused by the roll engraving. One of mine picked up a chip and you can see the mild indent in the receiver steel from that chip. I have also seen them for sale and in the right light of a photograph you can see other little issues that were put there by the roll engraver.

They use techniques and machines to make sure the receiver sides are all square and parallel. In fact, they use techniques that a high precision tool shop that I worked in for a while used to manufacture tooling for the machine tool industry.

The receivers are very flat on the sides, which are square and parallel to each other and is the basis for the precision and repeatability of their machine operations.

The barrels are hand polished. Speaking of barrels. Their barrels are made from 4140. They receive them as gundrilled/reamed blanks. They showed us the machine and techniques used to finish their barrels and their barrels get no heat from different operations that would cause them to warp. As such, they never need to straighten a barrel.

Additionally, unlike an 870 and most other shotguns, Ithacas are built on their own receiver, scaled to the gauge. So parts have to be machined gauge/gun specific.

Those points add to the cost of a gun.

I would not hesitate to purchase one of their barrels. Even though they are thicker and heavier than the barrels, say made in the early 60's and back, they would be my choice for shooting steel shot.

In fact, I am contemplating assembling another 16ga from parts. Numrich still has receivers and if you study what you need and are careful in your purchases, you can build up a gun for a very competitive price.

If I do this, I think I will buy one of their field barrels (no vent rib) and use it as the tube of choice. It would be another 16ga of course (yes I do belong to the 16ga forums ).

If I had not found an as new barrel from a prior iteration of the Ithaca Gun Co in a shop in Iowa, I would have bought a barrel from them. I got a deal though and the deal won out. I bought a 26" vent rib, screw in choke barrel AND a 24" vent rib screw in choke barrel, both in 16ga and both actually looking like they had never been shot for $400.00 AND that included 2 choke tubes. I couldn't pass that deal up. This is the only reason I didn't use Ithaca factory barrels in my recent builds.

The Ithaca 37 is an old design, read more about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithaca_37

In 1 1/2 yrs, the design will be 100 yrs old. It was designed when parts were machined. There are not stampings, MIM castings, or other short cuts taken to make the gun more inexpensive to build.

In fact, the design is different than the 870 or 500 as the bolt locks up in the receiver, not into a barrel extension. Which is the stronger better method ? That I cannot say, I don't have the knowledge to do so

but

the fact that it does so necessitates extra precision machining into the receiver.

it is the precision machined into the receiver that is the basis for the fact that Ithacas only need 1 action arm. some of the others need two (2) to keep everything inside the receiver running straight and true, but the internal parts of Ithacas run in machined slots, that encapsulate and control the action/parts movement.

Actually, if you read the history, Remington first marketed the design.

There is one of the Remington Model 17 20ga guns over at the pawn shop that is near me. If I knew a little more about them and what (if any) parts interchanged, I would get it and restore it.

It actually is a pretty cool looking gun.

[shortwave]

So wouldn't it be easier to want to own a more expensive gun if the tree option need never be taken ?

Why...yes it would. But then again if everyone owned only expensive, quality built guns that were boringly dependable then what would we have to come on TFL and bitch about other then prices? ... And variety is the 'spice of life'.

Too, everyone can't afford only high-end guns. Couldn't afford the few I have till later on in life and I'm sure glad the quality of the old Mossy's and Remington's were much better then the ones produced today. I've got a few of each I've had for many years and as far as functionability and smooth actions, they stand right there with my older Ithaca's. But I've not held a newer Remmy or Mossy that (IMO) can hold a candle to the older or newer Ithaca's.

Thus, the reason I'm glad Ithaca is doing well and hoping they continue. Just wish you could still 'slam-fire' the new ones like you can the older ones.

[Dreaming100Straight]

I admittedly know little about the Ithaca, but comparing a $1K plus gun to a $350 870 Express is a fools errand. I know of a police armorer who recommends purchasing a lowly Express if the police models are too pricy and later, if needed, having it Parkerized to shame a factory police model. Compare it with the Wingmaster and compare prices, albeit the Wingmaster often needs a good going over by a smith.

[MattShlock]

Let's come back to this a few years after the run on guns stops for the answer...

[drcook]

Thus, the reason I'm glad Ithaca is doing well and hoping they continue. Just wish you could still 'slam-fire' the new ones like you can the older ones.

Blame the lawyers and ATF on that one.

There is another issue that the quality and price of the current version of Ithaca Gun has done and affected us in a not so good way.

Prices on the old guns are being pushed up, especially in the 16ga version. If you go out on gunbroker, you can see how the prices have crept up.

This has even affected local pawnshops. There is a POS 16ga at a local shop that is priced at 275. This gun is rough, the stock was painted with house paint, a crappy recoil pad looks like it was screwed in over the plastic buttplate that came on the gun.

I have bought a reasonably decent one for 150 plus shipping. That was a deal.

There is one out on gunbroker with an "English" stock (a 16ga) but the barrel doesn't match the frame serial nbr wise. It is safe to shoot as it appears to have been professionally fitted (I spoke to them about it on the phone) BUT for someone looking for a gun that came that way from the factory, he has it priced way too high.

Let's come back to this a few years after the run on guns stops for the answer...

Shiloh Sharps is still selling plenty of 1874 Sharps rifles that have a starting price of 2000.00 delivered. The waiting time is over 16 months. They have been going this way for years.

People that buy quality are not part of the gun buying frenzy. It is a different mentality. In order for the niche guns like an 1874 Sharps or an Ithaca shotgun to be affected by the current political climate fueling the mass buying the anti-gunners would have to be going for the whole enchilada.