Which HD Shotgun

[dreaming]

Shootist, You assume that the intruder doesn't shine a flashlight in your face. No way can I agree with the use of #9 shot and will leave it up to you and others to read the many posts and articles on the subject. Suffice it to say that while the 9 might stop an attacker, which is more likely to stop them. #9 or 00 buck? Consider that an intruder may be wearing a heavy jacket and be hopped up and feeling no pain. Heck, it takes 3 or 4 pellets of #9 just to break clay.

[ShootistPRS]

At least if I don't have a flash light the intruder will have to find me and I will know right where he is. Bang flop!

[dreaming]

And you don't have to turn your weapons light on, if it isn't needed. However, if you don't have it and do need it you are S.O.L. And don't expect the guy to go flop if all you have is #9. I suppose you never thought about what happens if your night vision is disturbed or for some reason you can't clearly identify the person who appears to be the intruder.

[reynolds357]

Even though it would not be my first choice, I imagine a face full of "#9" would be quite incapacating. Maybe not bang flop but bang scream holler and flop around. I worked a shooting where a man was shot in the face with #8 at close range. Not pretty. Still makes me want to throw up just thinking about it. He was not dead, but had I been him, I would rather have been dead.

[bigrebnc1861]

Classic firearms has some good shotguns at a very cheap price.
https://www.classicfirearms.com/ross...n-12-gauge-5-1
https://www.classicfirearms.com/frn-...action-shotgun

[dreaming]

Ninjas always think it will be so easy to shoot an intruder with pinpoint accuracy. You want to put an immediate stop to the threat. You aren't shooting on a range, but are woken in the middle of night, may not be able to find your glasses, and are pumped on adrenalin. Yes, you might be able to strike the intruder just right and in that case #9 might work, but which is more likely to put a sudden end to an imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death? Birdshot or buckshot?

[bigrebnc1861]

I've heard that some people use birdshotOne setup that might work birdshot first shell 00 buck the second shot and slug if the 00 doesn't stop them.

[Kvon2]

I keep #6 shot ready for home defense but I am a big supporter of birdshot for HD.

Keep in mind most of these scenarios are usually only going to be within a few feet. Birdshot under 10 feet has barely begun to spread. I think a tight pattern of bird shot is going to get the job done in most scenarios.

All just my opinion of course.

[FITASC]

Depends on the birdshot - #2 vs #9 are two different things.

[Screwball]

Since we are all adults, I'll disagree with that... birdshot should be used for birds.

While I wouldn't want to be shot with it, birdshot is not going to do anything other than make a nasty wound. It isn't going to penetrate, and in turn, will not stop a threat. Plenty of people can attest to that in hunting accidents... just ask Dick Cheney's hunting buddy. 78 year old took a pattern of birdshot to the face within 90 feet (depends on who you believe, probably closer).

Or better yet, take a look at dogs that people have shot with birdshot. If you look hard, there is very graphic shots of a pit bull that some random scumbag put birdshot into its head. Most dogs can be blinded, but rarely is it fatal.

Buckshot, in comparison, has about two to four times the mass of birdshot pellets. A .33 sized ball will get into vital organs and make serious injury to them. Want to really make sure you inflict damage, a 12 gauge slug is anywhere between .69 and .73 caliber... usually moving even faster. Blood will leak out of such a hole pretty well.

Now, if you are going to suggest birdshot in a defensive shotgun... why not do less lethal? You'd actually have more chance of stopping your threat with blunt trauma of a beanbag to the head than birdshot anywhere. Even if you are close in, the pattern of birdshot spreads. It isn't like you are going to be hit with a straight ounce of lead, but something like 200 0.02 ounce pellets that will not go through fatty tissue. Only exception would be if you cut the shell... and you may have a Glaser slug like performance... but you really don't want to be cycling cut shells through a shotgun.

The main reason for a defensive shotgun is to stop a threat. Buckshot is my smallest load I'm putting in a defensive gun... and I do stop at 1 (.30 balls, but normally load 00/.33). If it is a bird or clay, then I'll use #8... which will do the job in that role.

[amd6547]

While my personal Mossberg 500 is loaded with Federal FliteControl #1 buck, and I am also a fan 00, I wouldn't discount #4 buck. My shotgun patterns #4 buck very well at 25yds, and the Hornady Varmint Express #4 buck load with their version of FliteControl seems like real winner.

[FITASC]

How big is your house that you need 75 feet worth of accuracy?

[Bill DeShivs]

I happen to know a man who was shot in the right lung at about 10 feet with a load of #8 birdshot from a 12 ga.
I also know the man who shot him, and I talked to one of the O/R nurses who attended him.
They pulled the wad off of his spine. Half of his lung was gone. I would say this was a fatal wound. Buckshot would not have done any better-probably worse.
He ran for 35 yards before dropping from blood loss. Luckily, he was 1/4 mile from a hospital, or he certainly would have died.

These are facts. Take from them what you will.

I can say there is a lot of difference in penetration of shot sizes, and distance has a LOT to do with penetration of bird shot.
It's obvious a lot of the posters have not shot too many things with shotguns, for sure.

[MarkCO]

I've shot a LOT of animals with birdshot and buckshot. I have also been admitted in court as a ballistics expert in shooting reconstruction and have worked on several cases where people have been shot with birdshot...birdshot is for the birds.

[Screwball]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

I happen to know a man who was shot in the right lung at about 10 feet with a load of #8 birdshot from a 12 ga.

I also know the man who shot him, and I talked to one of the O/R nurses who attended him.

They pulled the wad off of his spine. Half of his lung was gone. I would say this was a fatal wound. Buckshot would not have done any better-probably worse.

He ran for 35 yards before dropping from blood loss. Luckily, he was 1/4 mile from a hospital, or he certainly would have died.



These are facts. Take from them what you will.



I can say there is a lot of difference in penetration of shot sizes, and distance has a LOT to do with penetration of bird shot.

It's obvious a lot of the posters have not shot too many things with shotguns, for sure.

Sorry, but if it was a fatal wound... how is he still alive? How did he run for 35 yards?

I have a pretty good understanding of the word "fatal." Look up the 1986 FBI Miami shootout... the main gunman in that took a fatal wound exiting his car, which medical examiners state that if he threw up his hands right after and was rushed to the hospital... he would still have died. And after that fatal wound, he seriously injured two agents and killed another two. If you don't want to consider that, then good luck with your birdshot. I won't use it in anything other than recreation.

Wad sticking to his spine, it had to be close contact. So, it likely did as I described previously, and acted like a Glaser slug... being held together as it entered his body. That is similar to getting hit with a slug (about the same mass), but it will not hold up well inside the body. Might have lost a lung, but he didn't lose his life.

Again, not something I'd want to happen to me, but if he lived and was able to run that far, what would someone do that wanted to harm you? Also, can you guarantee that any shot you make would be identical on an intruder? Meaning, they wouldn't be a few feet back, allowing the shot to expel from the wad and decrease the effectiveness of your shot. One limited example of birdshot seriously wounding someone doesn't mean it is a great choice. .22 can be fatal, but that didn't change my agency's policy on .380 being the minimum carry caliber (on and off duty).

[Bill DeShivs]

OK- "Should have been a fatal wound."
The shot was at about 10 feet-inside an apartment.
Of course it entered like a solid mass. My point is that buckshot would have made no difference.
He didn't lose his life because he was high on cocaine and immediate medical assistance was rendered.

I never said bird shot was a great choice. There are some here who think it won't do much damage. It certainly can, and should not be discounted.

[FITASC]

Of course it entered like a solid mass.

No, it didn't - it entered like a close cluster of tiny pellets, which is what it was.
One ounce of sand and one ounce of a solid lead projectile WILL have two different results, even at close range

[ShootistPRS]

There is a lot of talk about the penetration of bird shot and how people have shot a lot of birds or how someone shot a dog. In a 12 ga the typical slug is 7/8 ounce traveling out the muzzle at 1500 fps. In my 12 ga My load is 1-1/4 ounces of #8 at 1400 fps. At ten feet it is roughly the size of a golf ball. The wad is still with the shot but starting to open up and slow down. That is about the distance someone is going to be from me in my house. It will penetrate because as it hits a person it is not a single pellet but it is a roundish ball of pellets that stretch and tear the tissue as it moves into and through the body. It expands as fast as a glazer bullet, weighs a bunch more and expands to a much larger size. That ball of shot will do many times the damage that a 9mm, 357 or even a slug will do as they go completely through the body. That same ball of shot will crush the skull and displace the brains of a target if you shoot to the forehead. If you are hesitant to believe it then I recommend that you test your own shotgun, as I did mine, to understand what a shotgun is capable of at close range. Put a seven pound roast (raw) on a platform at ten feet and shoot to the middle of it. Put several 1 x 12s behind each other and fire into them at ten feet and then tell me that 1-1/4 ounce of shot won't penetrate or do enough damage to an assailant to stop him.

All this theory about what a shotgun won't do is just opinion until you test it like I have. You are welcome to your opinion but it won't modify the facts.

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

Hi,

This is the spread what the open cylinder Mossber 500 Special Purpose 20 ga shotgun makes with .311 Lee round balls which is about between #1 Buckshot and 0 Buckshot.


These .311 (caliber 31) round balls do not fit well into the birdshot wad Cup of an 20 ga Shell but if you cut the petals of the wad Cup then you can fit 2 at a row and fit totally 6 of them. That gives you an weight of 270 grains since each .311" round ball weights 45 grains. After loading them with 6 round balls (#1 Buckshot) I crimp the round with the Forest Garden Hand crimper (roll crimp).
They cast fine but worse than the cal .575" round balls. I use the Lee .311 2 cavity mold,
The target is an old washing machine in the size of an 200 Liter drum Barrel. I shot it at 25 meters and you see at that distance all 6 .311" round balls hit the target but got quite an spread. This unchocked Barrel with this round is only good for an Maximum distance of 25 meters. After that the spread will be too much.
This is the gun used for this test:

[ShootistPRS]

That is at close to 80 feet. If you want another test, get one of those loads and a heavy field birdshot load and shoot them side by side from 10 feet into the same target.
You should be able to get more of those pellet than just 6. I like loading 12 of the #4 buck but they spread more than 9 pellets will but I use a choke where you are shooting from a cylinder bore.

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

I use a regular #7 or #1 birdshot Shell.
Open the crimp (cutting it with a knife) and Lifting out the crimp for later use again with the roll crimper.

Then I empty the birdshot and save it. After that I stuff into the birdshot wad Cup the .311" round balls.
If I leave the wad with petals I get only 4 311 round balls into it (180 grains. This gives light load but lots of unburnt powder). Then it is full leaving room for the cut off crimp as sealant for the roll crimper. Thsi load with Cup petals does not pattern any better than with the cut off petal 6 round ball load.
If I cut off the petals of the wad Cup then I can get in side by side 2 round balls (they fit snug) and 3 layers of 2 totalling 6 311 round balls. With this load (270 grains I get almost no unburnt powder). This load has a kick to it. It penetrates the bin posted before on both sides and I could not retrieve any round ball.
If I would cutt down the cushoining part of the wad than more .311" round balls would fit (2 or 4 more I guess). But that would already give an hefty recoil too hefty for me since 270 grain is a nice recoiling load. If I would want have an "real man recoiling gun" I would use the 12 ga.
20 ga staying under 300 grain is the best of the best of all compromises IMHO!

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

This cylinder bore shoots actually tighter with #4 Buckshot (I loaded 15 of them) and is IMO the better Option. At 25 meters it will pattern better and have more pellets.
But the Thing is since I cast all my buckshot and slugs, These Lee #4 Buckshot rounds are very hard to cast and seldom gives good results. The bigger the round ball the better they cast in my experience. Under .311 round balls you do not want to cast because of the difficulties of casting. Casting .311 is ok.

But These .311 round balls have a nice Punch and Penetration.
In the future I will Change Barrel to this gun and putting on an 26" choked Barrel with IC, Mod and Full chokes.
One concern: since the .311" buckshot fits snug the hull it may be not an good idea to choke the Barrel. Remember the 20 ga is about .62" Diameter and each round ball is already .311" Diameter. Putting even an IC choke on may squeeze the round balls if they happen to want to Exit 2 at a time.

[ShootistPRS]

OK, I was thinking you had a 12 ga not a 20. As far as the choke is concerned with pure lead balls it wouldn't matter if there was a choke or not but I suppose you are casting 1-20 tin/lead balls? They would still squeeze through but it is not the best way to treat a choke.

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

I use wheel wheights for casting.
Not the slightest idea of the lead composition. But I have a lot of Zinc ones in which melt as well and making pouring the lead difficult.

In an 12 ga These 311 round balls #1 1/2 Buckshot may fit wonderfully. They may be the perfect defense load ever for 12 ga (and 20 ga).

[dreaming]

If you need to shoot a person, you need to shoot him with something that will put them down immediately. If they could run 35 yards before dropping, they could easily reach you with a knife or fire several rounds at you or family.

As for distances, the smallest room in my house is 10 feet wide. Some angles of fire are closer to 25 feet. Consider that you may have to take the fight outside and may be shooting at even longer ranges.

Why in heck would you let an intruder get to within 10 feet?

As for using reloads for home defense, not for me. I reload and have done so for a few years, but that is for shooting clay birds. Not bad guns that might take the life of my wife or myself. I applaud guys who make their own defensive ammunition, if they don't have access to factory loads, but some things are not for cheaping out.