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Old January 13, 2016, 09:25 PM   #1
lockedcj7
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NFA 41p rule changes 1-4-16

Does anyone have a good grasp of the rule changes?

I was dropping off my form 4 at the LGS today and the counter man casually mentioned that the LEO sign-off for individuals was going away. I tried a Google search and came up with very little that was recent and relevant. What I did find was this:

http://blog.princelaw.com/2016/01/05...on-to-atf-41p/

Three things jumped out at me. When the rule takes effect this summer...
  • For individuals, the LEO sign-off will become a LEO notification.
  • For Trusts, fingerprints and photos will be required, as will a LEO notification.
  • For both, if a subsequent form 1 or 4 is done within 24 months of the last set of fingerprints and photos, no new prints and photos will be required.

Suppressors and SBRs are not coming off the NFA and the $200 tax still applies.

Did anyone read it or hear differently?
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Old January 13, 2016, 10:37 PM   #2
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I think you have it. One thing to add, ALL persons on a trust must submit background, finger prints and photos.
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Old January 13, 2016, 11:36 PM   #3
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"One thing to add, ALL persons on a trust must submit background, finger prints and photos."

This means your four person trust will be out $400-500 to meet these requirements.
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Old January 14, 2016, 09:34 AM   #4
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If this is correct, why even bother with trusts anymore! Register/transfer as an individual and notify your CLEO. Done. Right?
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Old January 14, 2016, 03:20 PM   #5
Bill DeShivs
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Mobuck- please explain. The only additional cost would be for photos/fingerprints.
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Old January 14, 2016, 05:43 PM   #6
lockedcj7
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Everyone on the trust will need fingerprints and photos but that should add less than $20 per person. The advantage of a trust is that families can transfer the NFA item freely between themselves and still be legal.

At least theoretically, my wife could be charged with illegal possession if I leave the safe unsecured when I go to work.
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Old January 14, 2016, 05:47 PM   #7
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"Mobuck- please explain. The only additional cost would be for photos/fingerprints."

Last time I had photo, fingerprint, background check cost $100 from State Highway Patrol.
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Old January 14, 2016, 08:43 PM   #8
lockedcj7
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I see. Fingerprints are free at my sheriff's office and I paid $11 for four passport photos at the UPS store.
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Old January 14, 2016, 10:03 PM   #9
Bill DeShivs
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I'm sure the ATF will do their own background checks! That comes with the $200 tax.
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Old January 15, 2016, 08:47 AM   #10
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"Once the ruling goes into effect, the responsible persons in a trust or LLC must have a background check completed which will require fingerprinting and photographs, much like when an individual purchases a silencer today."

As I read this, the "background check" is part of the trust's responsibility and is NOT the same as providing a simple fingerprint card and photo.
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Old January 15, 2016, 08:35 PM   #11
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"Suppressors and SBRs are not coming off the NFA and the $200 tax still applies"

You mean they were not willing to throw away all thoes free $200 checks they were getting in the mail....
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Old January 16, 2016, 03:18 AM   #12
Bill DeShivs
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I guess I'd better get on the ball and send in my SBS paperwork then!
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Old January 16, 2016, 08:04 AM   #13
Mobuck
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"Suppressors and SBRs are not coming off the NFA and the $200 tax still applies"

"You mean they were not willing to throw away all thoes free $200 checks they were getting in the mail...."

Yeah, costs BATFE less than $25 to have a desk dweeb read through the form and OK it. That leaves $175 in pure profit.
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Old January 18, 2016, 09:15 AM   #14
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I re-read the regs but still not 100% sure of the meaning. After the second reading, it does seem that BATFE is going to do the "background check" after fingerprints and photo are provided. Still, the expense of these requirements is going to be coming on a 2 year(?) cycle. One comment was that if the requirement to provide this was circumvented by purchasing an NFA item every year.
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Old January 18, 2016, 09:25 PM   #15
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I don't think so. Once you submit photos and fingerprints, you can do as many form 1s and form 4s as you like within the 24 month window without having to do them again. Once that window of time closes, you'll need to submit another set of fingerprints and photos if you want to keep submitting form 1s and form 4s.
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Old January 24, 2016, 08:48 PM   #16
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As Skans says, in almost all cases, the only reason for a trust was to bypass the CLEO signature, which many CLEO's interpreted as allowing them a veto over ownership of an NFA item. One CLEO even said that if he signed that form, he would be responsible for any "problem" with the item (a machinegun).

That is not true. The wording is (has been) such that the CLEO is not "permitting" or "allowing" the transfer, only stating that it is not prohibited by some local law. But the combination of fearful CLEO's and their political bosses, and the BATFE requirement for a signature, made for a de facto ban in many areas. That now is lifted.

Note that the change, long in the works, is being touted by Obama as another of his great changes for more gun control. Yet it actually will allow more people to legally own NFA items than before. I honestly don't get it.

Jim
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Old January 25, 2016, 12:08 AM   #17
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"As Skans says, in almost all cases, the only reason for a trust was to bypass the CLEO signature,"

I beg to differ on this response. The trust ensures that the NFA item(s) will not be forfeited/confiscated should the original permittee die, become non-eligible, or otherwise lose the legal right to own said NFA item. It also protects the household from committing an illegal act should anyone other than the permittee have access to the storage area where the NFA item is contained.
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Old January 25, 2016, 07:13 AM   #18
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Quote:
Suppressors and SBRs are not coming off the NFA and the $200 tax still applies.
Did anyone actually expect that to happen?
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Old January 25, 2016, 12:21 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
Quote:
Originally Posted by lockedcj7
Suppressors and SBRs are not coming off the NFA and the $200 tax still applies.
Did anyone actually expect that to happen?
Some people seem to think that. A lot of people have heard of the Hearing Protection Act and a significant number of them think it's something that actually stands a chance of passing, or they get it confused with what they heard about 41P.

Customers bring it up all the time in our shop, and I even had a few who mentioned waiting until the bill passes so buying a silencer or SBR was like buying a normal gun. I'm no political scientist, but based on my knowledge of how bills are passed I'd say the Buffalo Bills are going to win a Super Bowl far sooner than that.
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Old January 25, 2016, 01:15 PM   #20
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I am getting ready to order another suppressor before all this goes in effect. Keep in mind that won't be until July so those with a trust go ahead a buy up before then. After July it'll be easier to go as an individual unless you can set up the trust where it specifies the other people on the trust don't have to do the finger printing and photos. Not sure how this is done, but have been researching it.
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