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Old November 17, 2015, 10:35 PM   #1
jakemonroe
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help with AOW/SBS laws

so here is my situation... i live in washington half of the year and you cant have short barreled shotguns there. i have come up with an idea that might allow me to have a pistol that fires 20 gauge.

The design would be to get a new single shot or double barrel receiver and attach a pistol grip to it. Then i would take a barrel and cut it down to 8-10 inches and put very shallow rifling in it. after the barrel has been rifled i would attach it to the receiver and that would be it.

i understand it is very close to an AOW but i was wondering if the slight rifling would remove the need for the tax stamp all together.

the main purpose of this gun would be hunting rabbit in VERY thick junipers (so thick i have to crawl a lot) and for looking cool at the range.
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Old November 17, 2015, 10:56 PM   #2
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I'm sure that guy will be along to tell me how stupid I am regarding NFA regs but here's what I see regarding your ideas.
"The design would be to get a new single shot or double barrel receiver and attach a pistol grip to it. Then i would take a barrel and cut it down to 8-10 inches and put very shallow rifling in it. after the barrel has been rifled i would attach it to the receiver and that would be it.

i understand it is very close to an AOW but i was wondering if the slight rifling would remove the need for the tax stamp all together. "

Once the firearm is produced/built by the manufacturer, it is a shotgun. You can't change that regardless of what mods you make to it. I doubt you can just go out and buy an unnumbered action since that's pretty much required by ATF.
The AR type receiver is the only one I recall off hand that can go either way(long gun/handgun) dependent on the parts added.
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Old November 17, 2015, 11:20 PM   #3
jakemonroe
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you might be right, these laws are so confusing. i know that if a shotgun receiver is factory mounted with a pistol grip then it is considered a "firearm" not a "shotgun" and therefore can not be purchased by people under 21.

the atf defines a aow as a gun that can be easily concealed and can fire shot from the energy of an explosive. or a pistol or revolver with a smoth bore designed to fire shotshells.

this would mean that my design is an aow but it would also include the judge and every single pistol for that matter (pistol shot shells).

I also just realized i might run into "sporting use" issues as well as the gun would be classified as a pistol but fires a cartridge larger then .50
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Old November 17, 2015, 11:24 PM   #4
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A shotgun does have to be designed to be fired from the shoulder, so there are some shotguns that (at least federally) are not shotguns but "firearms". These include the pistol grip Mossberg 500. Black Aces has a Mossberg 500 with something like an 8" barrel that is non NFA because of this. I'm not aware off hand of any single or double barrel guns that are designed this way from the factory, although it does make me think of the Ithaca Auto/Burglar which was a very interesting design.



One thing I would check is to make sure the AOW is OK with your state's laws. Although it might escape the federal definition of a short-barreled shotgun, would it meet that definition under your state law?

EDIT: The Judge (and other firearms firing shotshells) are not considered AOW because they are rifled. A rifled pistol firing a shotshell is not an AOW, only a smoothbore pistol.

If I remember correctly, Taurus tried to get approval for a version of the judge in 28 gauge but were told that it did not meet the definition of a sporting purpose, and being over .50 caliber would make it a destructive device.
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Old November 18, 2015, 05:49 AM   #5
kozak6
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Almost.

Quote:
(f) Destructive device
The term “destructive device” means...

(2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes;
It's still a pain, but if you can own an AOW in your state, the transfer fee is only $5.

Another popular recent option is to obtain a factory pistol grip only shotgun, put a bird's head grip on it, and shorten the barrel until the firearm is just over 26" in length. You can generally get down to maybe a 14" barrel or so. It falls into a legal-for-now dark grey area since the '34 NFA defines shotguns as being fired from the shoulder, but doesn't specify a minimum barrel length (or minimum overall length, for that matter) for AOW's.

Google non NFA shotgun for details.

Note that many states mirror NFA law in their regulations and that it may not be lawful to own in some states.
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Old November 18, 2015, 11:25 AM   #6
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The problem is if you design it so that it is neither a SBS or AOW it will most likely be a DD (destructive device) due to its barrel diameter over 1/2 inch. And I'm not sure your state will look kindly to hunting with that .
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Old November 21, 2015, 03:14 PM   #7
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Taurus Rossi did try to make a 28 gauge Judge, didn't work. Although for months they had it as coming soon on their site. They had a picture so atleast one was produced. After that they did offer it as a Circuit Judge.

I think your only option for your idea is have a custom shotgun built. My understanding there's currently a gray area for aow with the pistol grip shotgun. So if you don't like the factory versions I'm sure there's someone out there than make you a gun to fit under the current law. Or you can just buy one of several .45/.410 guns out there. With that logic though, if you want bigger than .410 you can make your own. Grab something chambered in .500 s&w and I'm sure there's someway of making your own shot shells. The simplest approach is to get a regular shotgun and cut it down to as as short as the law allows. How compact does it need to be to hunt with?

For the record, lots of guns can be a pistol if they originally had a less than 14 imch barrel and no shouldar stock. ARs, AKs, and countless single shots fall into that catagory. Shotguns do not however, unless it is chambered for a bullet and 1/2 inch and smaller. As popular as the Judge was/is Taurus/Rossi probably could've created a shotgun version of .500 s&w and made a few bucks. They already designed the raging judge for .454, they could've made it .500 instead. I'm just hoping and waiting on a raging circuit judge in .454, very simple step to make and would be a great deer gun.
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Old November 21, 2015, 09:31 PM   #8
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WV gunner, shotguns can fall into the "other firearm" category also. Here is one example
http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploa...l-unfolded.jpg
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Old November 21, 2015, 10:33 PM   #9
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Those types of guns are what I was referring too, a shotgun originally with only a pistol grip. I myself wouldn't take the plunge to venture into risking it. Current law says it's legal, how long will it be that way? It's only legal because of basically a technicality. And removing a pistol grip to add a stock just seems like it may erase the gray area. Haven't you converted it to a legal shotgun but now with a short barrel. I know with hamdguns/rifles (except a select few) you can't convert a rifle to a pistol. And if you convert a handgun to a rifle it's permanently legally a rifle. So if you have a pistol grip 12 gauge and put a shouldar stock on it and cut the barrel down I don't see how it's not a SBS. The technicality allows pistol grips and the overal length what, 26 inches? Or is there a minimum length? Plus shooting that short of a shotgun while hunting is going to be rough on your ears. Regardless if the federal government saying it's legal, does the average cop know? Let's say you get pulled over and it's in the trunk of your car or next to you in your truck. The cop will probably ask if you have a weapon in one of several questions you'll be asked repeatedly. When they see what would normally be a SBS in your trunk, how will they react? You might get a get out of jail free card but who says you won't spend the night there while they figure it out. I know I'm paranoid but it's a realistic situation.

Last edited by WV_gunner; November 21, 2015 at 10:39 PM.
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Old November 23, 2015, 02:37 PM   #10
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WV_gunner Those types of guns are what I was referring too, a shotgun originally with only a pistol grip. I myself wouldn't take the plunge to venture into risking it. Current law says it's legal, how long will it be that way?
It's been that way since 1934.


It's only legal because of basically a technicality.
Nope. ATF regulations clearly define what is a shotgun, handgun and just a firearm.
And removing a pistol grip to add a stock just seems like it may erase the gray area. Haven't you converted it to a legal shotgun but now with a short barrel. I know with hamdguns/rifles (except a select few) you can't convert a rifle to a pistol.
Wrong.

And if you convert a handgun to a rifle it's permanently legally a rifle.
Wrong again. Where have you been the last four years? Thanks to the Thompson Center case in 1992, ATF finally issued a ruling in 2011.
https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download


So if you have a pistol grip 12 gauge and put a shouldar stock on it and cut the barrel down I don't see how it's not a SBS.
Well, it IS. As soon as you put that shoulder stock on an "Other Firearm"....you made a shotgun...with a short bbl.


The technicality allows pistol grips and the overal length what, 26 inches? Or is there a minimum length?
To remain an "Other Firearm" it must exceed 26" OAL and not have a shoulder stock.

Plus shooting that short of a shotgun while hunting is going to be rough on your ears.
You should be wearing plugs anyway, but few of these are used for hunting.

Regardless if the federal government saying it's legal, does the average cop know? Let's say you get pulled over and it's in the trunk of your car or next to you in your truck. The cop will probably ask if you have a weapon in one of several questions you'll be asked repeatedly. When they see what would normally be a SBS in your trunk, how will they react? You might get a get out of jail free card but who says you won't spend the night there while they figure it out. I know I'm paranoid but it's a realistic situation.
Valid concerns, but the same could be said for any type of firearm a police officer encounters.
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