Vaults approved for black powder

Hardy · November 20, 2011, 06:40 PM

Ok,
A year or so ago I inquired ATF about regulations for selling real black powder. They required an application along w/ fee and you had to have a vault. Of course after ordering BP and placing in vault you would then be inspected. I chose not to do so because insurance would not allow. Now I do not have insurance on store so that alleviates that problem. Also, fire marshall just approved us for our retail store since have reg. extinguisher etc. I have 2 Steel SENTRY fire proof 14'X16' safes w/ 3.5' door w/ combination locks. . Would that be sufficient to hold Goex and pass ATF if I apply for license and order minimum (50) lbs of bp

WBH

Or would I have to buy expensive vault from Dixie or whereever?

Hardy · November 20, 2011, 06:45 PM

Oh, the model #s are 1250.

Hardy · November 20, 2011, 06:50 PM

Again messed up 14 inch by 16 inch w/ 3.5 inch door and 2 inch walls.

Hardy · November 20, 2011, 08:20 PM

1230 model #

If I can use these it will let me sell Real B/P. If not I don't know if I can afford a roll around approved vault sold by Dixie. The agent I talked with at the time said it was up to ATF to approve my storage facility. If they don't approve then I'm handcuffed but not necessarillary literally. Just testing waters before I buy bulk bp

WBH

ClemBert · November 20, 2011, 08:35 PM

Hardy, give the judge a call: http://www.jackspowderkeg.com/

He's a nice fella and easy to talk to. Although the BATF is the ultimate authority to license you the judge would have a good idea of what the minimum you would need. Let us know what he says.

Hardy · November 20, 2011, 08:47 PM

Thanks Clembert--I just emailed him.

WBH

ClemBert · November 20, 2011, 08:50 PM

You'll probably get better info if you call him. That way you can kick around some ideas that may work out better for you than your specific question.

Hardy · November 20, 2011, 09:44 PM

I called him-no answer but will try again tommorrow.

Don't forget my 11 rem caps

prof marvel · November 21, 2011, 02:30 AM

Greetings Hardy -

It is not likely that your fireproof safe will meet the requirement for a portable powder magazine. the safes are designed to protect documents and valuable from fire & flood while Powder magazines are designed to vent safely rather than contain an explosion and the portable ones are designed to be easily rolled out in case of fire.

sorry to say you need one of these- a type 4 indoor portable powder magazine:

http://tinyurl.com/powdermagazine

or one built to the specs.
here are all the regs:
http://www.atf.gov/explosives/how-to...uirements.html

arcticap · November 21, 2011, 02:48 AM

The Maine Powder House seems to have the exact same powder vault as Cabela's for $208 with free shipping, a savings of about 1/3 of the price.

http://mainepowderhouse.com/powder-storage-safe/

But note that the customer must line it with 1/4" plywood himself.
One Cabela's customer review indicates that the plywood can be glued in which shouldn't be too difficult.

ClemBert · November 21, 2011, 11:57 AM

Hardy, it looks like arcticap has pointed out a very economical solution. That is, $208 delivered little worry about whether or not the BATF will give you a passing grade. Note that the Maine Powder House also states: "Box to be lined w/ 1/4″ plywood or similar material by purchaser". That price includes the cost of shipping. It would appear that the unit from the MPH includes the casters whereas it would appear that caster are add-ons. I might have to get one myself!

Bishop Creek · November 21, 2011, 11:54 PM

I've had one of those rolling models for about 10 years now and they hold up quite well.

Catfish25p2000 · November 22, 2011, 12:06 AM

You would have to meet the same requirements of a mag used to store anything but high explosives (1.1) or bulk salutes in the pyrotechnic world. The requirements really aren't that extensive. Non sparking interior surface, ie. plywood, non sparking paint, the hinges on the inside of the safe, ect. Most guys in pyrotechnics use job boxes modified to ATF approval. In the state I live, they also require wheels to be on the type 4 mag. Do some looking into it. It isn't that bad. The biggest pain of a mag is that you have to inventory and sign in it at least once every week.

Hardy · November 23, 2011, 09:04 PM

Thanks everyone. I thought about this 2 years ago but going between RE appraisals and having a small BP shop I didn't follow thru on getting licensed to do real BP.

Unfortuately for a small operation like mine-- it appears the cost now outweighs the return. trp 7 3f is a hot commodity. The subs are getting better w/out regulations. In fact I heard Goex is now making a sub and I heard it is not good? Is it? If I buy everything I need and want and what everyone else needs and want, I better have a dang good investor! Also, (getting back to BP) I would have to not only buy vault but have to have 50lbs in stock. Thats a lot of money. Gonna apply for licence --90 day hold then go from there. And most folks that want real BP belong to reanactment groups that they buy from their sources. I keep on tryin. I still try to keep store from being thrift shop and I do have 3rd colts in there--wish you didn't bash them as much. I have some seconds too. But I had success selling 3rds. I am now having trouble finding them at prices I can re sell. This has not been an easy game but we have a lot of fun and met some CHARACTORS of course. I WILL NOT WHINE. I am glad I opened this store-period.
WBH

ClemBert · November 23, 2011, 09:16 PM

Hardy,

I'm curious about costs and was wondering if you could educate me. Could you please fill in the details to the questions below. Thanks in advance.

1. How much does 777 cost you?
2. How much do yo sell 777 for?
3. How many cans (1 lb containers) of 777 do you sell per month (average)?
4. What is the additional cost of a license to sell real black powder?

Hardy · November 24, 2011, 09:39 PM

Clembert

I think I order pyrodex and now trip 7 from E Bros not far from us. If I pick it it up I do not pay hazzard fee, Pyrodex I think retails in our store for 25 Trip 7 27 Trip 7 2f 27. I Have to buy at least $150 of supplies on each order. Our next order is 4 boxes of 44's for c/b 4 cans of Trip 7 and 3 cans of pyro--2 sleaves of 50C 225 grain and 2 of 245 plus one CVA inline rifle. We sell Rem 11 caps for $6.89. I am going to apply for BP license and when approved I will decide on that. You know--the less gov requiremernts the happier I am. I like the Pietta Rems and conversions but conversions are on back order. I do have 1 poilished steel Rem w/ conversion. that you would luv

Hardy · November 24, 2011, 09:45 PM

Oh, the license is 25.00 but the cost of stocking is high. You have to buy 50 lbs at $14 to 16 and have a $250 to $500 vault to store it in. I am not sure at this writing if yo have to have insurance but figure at least over $1000 to start. And the substitutes are gaining more popularity. And the real BP shooters already got a deal on the stuff. Tough! Ain't it!!

WBH

ClemBert · November 24, 2011, 10:18 PM

You can buy powder from Jack's Powder Keg with a 25 lb minimum.

Goex 1FG-4FG... $350 (25 lbs.) $14 per lb
Diamondback 3FFF...$275 (25lbs.) $11 per lb

Shipping and HAZMAT is included in those prices above. And...there isn't local sales tax.

I hear that Diamondback is actually a pretty decent powder. I still think that some folks don't realize that real BP has some pretty good advantages over the substitute powders. My guess is that they just haven't been educated yet and assume that Pyrodex is the way to go.

As far as the powder magazine I personally would not considered it an expensed item at $208. It has value, even as a used item.

p.s. Usually when you conduct a poll and ask folks why they bother with Pyrodex the MOST common answer: BECAUSE I CAN NOT GET REAL BLACK POWDER LOCALLY AND WHEN I JUST WANT TO BUY ONE OR TWO POUNDS IT JUST ISN'T WORTH IT BECAUSE OF THE ADDED COST OF HAZMAT AND SHIPPING.

I'd be surprised if you offered Diamondback for $18 - $20 per pound that folks would snub their nose at it. Your cost...$11 per pound.

Hawg · November 25, 2011, 05:58 AM

Hardy, if you can stock items Wal Mart doesn't you may do better. They're seriously undercutting you on prices of powder and caps during season.

Hardy · November 25, 2011, 07:14 PM

Thanks-something to really study on. But it'll be 100 days before i get license anyway--just planning ahead. Hope I'm still in biz then!

Hardy · November 29, 2011, 08:47 PM

Ordered app-- when approved on down the road at least I'll be ready. Bill Kleiber, a retired Navy Chief, has been running the store. He says that trip 7 3f is what is best right now. Pyrodex is too dirty--Pioneer has not enough punch and substitute Goex is ify. I am ordering trip 7 3f for now and ninety days from now we'll see. THANKS for your generous time and thoughts to advise me. Really

WBH

mykeal · November 29, 2011, 11:49 PM

Hardy,

You're limiting yourself. There are many people who don't agree with your store manager and would prefer to purchase Pyrodex or other powders than Triple Seven. I would think you'd like to cater to ALL your customers instead of just those that share your store manager's opinion as to what powders are best.

ClemBert · November 30, 2011, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mykeal

Hardy,

You're limiting yourself. There are many people who don't agree with your store manager and would prefer to purchase Pyrodex or other powders than Triple Seven. I would think you'd like to cater to ALL your customers instead of just those that share your store manager's opinion as to what powders are best.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Why would one limit the powder choice to the personal bias of the store manager? It is the customer who dictates demand. I personally like 777 as a product. However, one must take into account the higher cost, hygroscopicity, ignition issues, and most importantly the sensitivity to compression (accuracy). BP doesn't seem to have those issues. I like 777 and use it but I like BP much better.

Andy Griffith · November 30, 2011, 12:05 PM

Quote:

one must take into account the higher cost, hygroscopicity, ignition issues, and most importantly the sensitivity to compression

That's more than enough to scare me away!

Hardy · November 30, 2011, 06:16 PM

Whoa! I still ordered pyrodex too. When folks buy guns and then go on the range and say trip 7 is the best( from shpkeepers talk and after hearing your talk, I am going personally this week and shoot this stuff on my farm+pyrodex and Goex. Then after looking at 30 ft away from 2X4 targets and plywood backdrops against backing wall and then after clean up I will give my opinion. Actually Pyrodex is cheaper-hope you are right. Still going to apply for BP licennce but for right now I can only do this.

November 20, 2011, 06:40 PM	#1
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	Vaults approved for black powder Ok, A year or so ago I inquired ATF about regulations for selling real black powder. They required an application along w/ fee and you had to have a vault. Of course after ordering BP and placing in vault you would then be inspected. I chose not to do so because insurance would not allow. Now I do not have insurance on store so that alleviates that problem. Also, fire marshall just approved us for our retail store since have reg. extinguisher etc. I have 2 Steel SENTRY fire proof 14'X16' safes w/ 3.5' door w/ combination locks. . Would that be sufficient to hold Goex and pass ATF if I apply for license and order minimum (50) lbs of bp WBH Or would I have to buy expensive vault from Dixie or whereever?

November 21, 2011, 02:30 AM	#9
prof marvel Member Join Date: March 9, 2011 Location: over the hills and far away Posts: 32	Greetings Hardy - It is not likely that your fireproof safe will meet the requirement for a portable powder magazine. the safes are designed to protect documents and valuable from fire & flood while Powder magazines are designed to vent safely rather than contain an explosion and the portable ones are designed to be easily rolled out in case of fire. sorry to say you need one of these- a type 4 indoor portable powder magazine: http://tinyurl.com/powdermagazine or one built to the specs. here are all the regs: http://www.atf.gov/explosives/how-to...uirements.html __________________ Professor Marvel's Traveling Apothecary and Fortune Telling Emporium Purveyor of Patent Remedies, Snake Oil, Cleaning Supplies, Dry Goods, and Picture Postcards Supplying useless advise for All Occasions

November 21, 2011, 11:57 AM	#11
ClemBert Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2009 Location: Orlando Posts: 936	Hardy, it looks like arcticap has pointed out a very economical solution. That is, $208 delivered little worry about whether or not the BATF will give you a passing grade. Note that the Maine Powder House also states: "Box to be lined w/ 1/4″ plywood or similar material by purchaser". That price includes the cost of shipping. It would appear that the unit from the MPH includes the casters whereas it would appear that caster are add-ons. I might have to get one myself! Last edited by ClemBert; November 21, 2011 at 12:07 PM.

November 22, 2011, 12:06 AM	#13
Catfish25p2000 Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2009 Posts: 263	You would have to meet the same requirements of a mag used to store anything but high explosives (1.1) or bulk salutes in the pyrotechnic world. The requirements really aren't that extensive. Non sparking interior surface, ie. plywood, non sparking paint, the hinges on the inside of the safe, ect. Most guys in pyrotechnics use job boxes modified to ATF approval. In the state I live, they also require wheels to be on the type 4 mag. Do some looking into it. It isn't that bad. The biggest pain of a mag is that you have to inventory and sign in it at least once every week. __________________ This is the best country on earth... Lets go do some shooting and celebrate!!!

November 24, 2011, 10:18 PM	#18
ClemBert Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2009 Location: Orlando Posts: 936	You can buy powder from Jack's Powder Keg with a 25 lb minimum. Goex 1FG-4FG... $350 (25 lbs.) $14 per lb Diamondback 3FFF...$275 (25lbs.) $11 per lb Shipping and HAZMAT is included in those prices above. And...there isn't local sales tax. I hear that Diamondback is actually a pretty decent powder. I still think that some folks don't realize that real BP has some pretty good advantages over the substitute powders. My guess is that they just haven't been educated yet and assume that Pyrodex is the way to go. As far as the powder magazine I personally would not considered it an expensed item at $208. It has value, even as a used item. p.s. Usually when you conduct a poll and ask folks why they bother with Pyrodex the MOST common answer: BECAUSE I CAN NOT GET REAL BLACK POWDER LOCALLY AND WHEN I JUST WANT TO BUY ONE OR TWO POUNDS IT JUST ISN'T WORTH IT BECAUSE OF THE ADDED COST OF HAZMAT AND SHIPPING. I'd be surprised if you offered Diamondback for $18 - $20 per pound that folks would snub their nose at it. Your cost...$11 per pound. Last edited by ClemBert; November 24, 2011 at 10:28 PM.

November 20, 2011, 06:45 PM	#2
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	Oh, the model #s are 1250.

November 20, 2011, 06:50 PM	#3
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	Again messed up 14 inch by 16 inch w/ 3.5 inch door and 2 inch walls.

November 20, 2011, 08:20 PM	#4
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	1230 model # If I can use these it will let me sell Real B/P. If not I don't know if I can afford a roll around approved vault sold by Dixie. The agent I talked with at the time said it was up to ATF to approve my storage facility. If they don't approve then I'm handcuffed but not necessarillary literally. Just testing waters before I buy bulk bp WBH

November 20, 2011, 08:35 PM	#5
ClemBert Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2009 Location: Orlando Posts: 936	Hardy, give the judge a call: http://www.jackspowderkeg.com/ He's a nice fella and easy to talk to. Although the BATF is the ultimate authority to license you the judge would have a good idea of what the minimum you would need. Let us know what he says.

November 20, 2011, 08:47 PM	#6
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	Thanks Clembert--I just emailed him. WBH

November 20, 2011, 08:50 PM	#7
ClemBert Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2009 Location: Orlando Posts: 936	You'll probably get better info if you call him. That way you can kick around some ideas that may work out better for you than your specific question.

November 20, 2011, 09:44 PM	#8
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	I called him-no answer but will try again tommorrow. Don't forget my 11 rem caps

November 21, 2011, 02:48 AM	#10
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	The Maine Powder House seems to have the exact same powder vault as Cabela's for $208 with free shipping, a savings of about 1/3 of the price. http://mainepowderhouse.com/powder-storage-safe/ But note that the customer must line it with 1/4" plywood himself. One Cabela's customer review indicates that the plywood can be glued in which shouldn't be too difficult.

November 21, 2011, 11:54 PM	#12
Bishop Creek Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2011 Posts: 566	I've had one of those rolling models for about 10 years now and they hold up quite well.

November 23, 2011, 09:04 PM	#14
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	Thanks everyone. I thought about this 2 years ago but going between RE appraisals and having a small BP shop I didn't follow thru on getting licensed to do real BP. Unfortuately for a small operation like mine-- it appears the cost now outweighs the return. trp 7 3f is a hot commodity. The subs are getting better w/out regulations. In fact I heard Goex is now making a sub and I heard it is not good? Is it? If I buy everything I need and want and what everyone else needs and want, I better have a dang good investor! Also, (getting back to BP) I would have to not only buy vault but have to have 50lbs in stock. Thats a lot of money. Gonna apply for licence --90 day hold then go from there. And most folks that want real BP belong to reanactment groups that they buy from their sources. I keep on tryin. I still try to keep store from being thrift shop and I do have 3rd colts in there--wish you didn't bash them as much. I have some seconds too. But I had success selling 3rds. I am now having trouble finding them at prices I can re sell. This has not been an easy game but we have a lot of fun and met some CHARACTORS of course. I WILL NOT WHINE. I am glad I opened this store-period. WBH

November 23, 2011, 09:16 PM	#15
ClemBert Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2009 Location: Orlando Posts: 936	Hardy, I'm curious about costs and was wondering if you could educate me. Could you please fill in the details to the questions below. Thanks in advance. 1. How much does 777 cost you? 2. How much do yo sell 777 for? 3. How many cans (1 lb containers) of 777 do you sell per month (average)? 4. What is the additional cost of a license to sell real black powder?

November 24, 2011, 09:39 PM	#16
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	Clembert I think I order pyrodex and now trip 7 from E Bros not far from us. If I pick it it up I do not pay hazzard fee, Pyrodex I think retails in our store for 25 Trip 7 27 Trip 7 2f 27. I Have to buy at least $150 of supplies on each order. Our next order is 4 boxes of 44's for c/b 4 cans of Trip 7 and 3 cans of pyro--2 sleaves of 50C 225 grain and 2 of 245 plus one CVA inline rifle. We sell Rem 11 caps for $6.89. I am going to apply for BP license and when approved I will decide on that. You know--the less gov requiremernts the happier I am. I like the Pietta Rems and conversions but conversions are on back order. I do have 1 poilished steel Rem w/ conversion. that you would luv

November 24, 2011, 09:45 PM	#17
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	Oh, the license is 25.00 but the cost of stocking is high. You have to buy 50 lbs at $14 to 16 and have a $250 to $500 vault to store it in. I am not sure at this writing if yo have to have insurance but figure at least over $1000 to start. And the substitutes are gaining more popularity. And the real BP shooters already got a deal on the stuff. Tough! Ain't it!! WBH

November 25, 2011, 05:58 AM	#19
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Hardy, if you can stock items Wal Mart doesn't you may do better. They're seriously undercutting you on prices of powder and caps during season.

November 25, 2011, 07:14 PM	#20
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	Thanks-something to really study on. But it'll be 100 days before i get license anyway--just planning ahead. Hope I'm still in biz then!

November 29, 2011, 08:47 PM	#21
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	Ordered app-- when approved on down the road at least I'll be ready. Bill Kleiber, a retired Navy Chief, has been running the store. He says that trip 7 3f is what is best right now. Pyrodex is too dirty--Pioneer has not enough punch and substitute Goex is ify. I am ordering trip 7 3f for now and ninety days from now we'll see. THANKS for your generous time and thoughts to advise me. Really WBH

November 29, 2011, 11:49 PM	#22
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Hardy, You're limiting yourself. There are many people who don't agree with your store manager and would prefer to purchase Pyrodex or other powders than Triple Seven. I would think you'd like to cater to ALL your customers instead of just those that share your store manager's opinion as to what powders are best.

November 30, 2011, 06:16 PM	#25
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	Whoa! I still ordered pyrodex too. When folks buy guns and then go on the range and say trip 7 is the best( from shpkeepers talk and after hearing your talk, I am going personally this week and shoot this stuff on my farm+pyrodex and Goex. Then after looking at 30 ft away from 2X4 targets and plywood backdrops against backing wall and then after clean up I will give my opinion. Actually Pyrodex is cheaper-hope you are right. Still going to apply for BP licennce but for right now I can only do this.