Multi-position drills?

Angelo Demuerte · March 26, 2014, 07:15 PM

Just curious as to whether or not anyone does this...

Is there anyone on here who practices presentation from multiple positions? I.E, practicing handgun presentation from positions in which you don't normally carry?

dawg23 · March 27, 2014, 09:59 AM

I would respectfully suggest a different approach -- Bianchi's Law.

Bianchi's Law is periodically worded in slightly different ways, but is essentially quoted as "Carry the same gun, in the same holster, in the same place, all the time."

kraigwy · March 27, 2014, 10:52 AM

I run unconventional classes. They are defense classes not target shooting, meaning its based on reality positions and not target stances.

Example:

Shooting while seated in a car; car jacking
Shooting while seated on a couch or recliner; home invasions
Shooting from bed; home invasions
Shooting while seated at a dinner table; home invasion, restaurant attacks
Shooting while laying on the ground: Being knocked on your butt at an atm or victim of knock out games.
Drawing and shooting from a diaper bag while pushing a stroller
Drawing and shooting while pulling a toddler (large rag doll) behind you for cover
Drawing and shooting while pushing a shopping cart at the target
Drawing and shooting while pulling on a purse which is attached to the target stand
Draw and fire while tossing your wallet at the target; mugging

Read crime reports in the paper for other scenarios one might encounter

IN ADDITION:

I teach that just because one has his gun pointed at you, does not mean you're at a disadvantage.

Drill I

Using a blue plastic training gun (Never use a real gun, empty or loaded), Stand in front of your partner with the gun concealed. Your partner stands with his elbows at his side, arms extended shoulder width a part.

When your partner sees you start to draw, he claps his hands. With just bit of practice you can always get the gun between the hands before they come together.

Drill II

Both you and your partner are facing your respective target. Your gun is concealed. Your partner points his pistol at the target ready to shoots. He fires as soon as he sees you start to draw. Again after a bit of practice you can draw and shoot before he can fire.

Remember you can act faster then you can re-act. In the two above drills your partner KNOWS you're going to draw, but cant react in time. Where as when confronted by a bandit, he is expecting compliance not drawing of a weapon. Distraction helps, if the one is talking he cant shoot. He had to recognize your threat, stop talking, and respond. This gives you the advantage.

One thing you need to do, is practice drawing and firing. Use a shot timer, if you can't draw and fire, hitting the center mass of a man size target in less then 1/2 second, you need to reevaluate your gun or method of carry.

Many will doubt my above comments (drills), all those who haven't tried it do.

I demonstrate the two drills mentioned, and in my ladies only SD Class every one of them say they cant do it, after a two hour session, every one of them can. I can one lady who is 87 years old and has a bad case of arthritis. It didn't take long for her to get where she can successfully complete the drills and is getting pretty close to getting to the 1/2 sec. speed I mentioned.

Again, this is for SD, not target shooting.

Sharkbite · March 27, 2014, 11:14 AM

I think the OP is asking about carrying the gun in different positions on the body, not presenting the gun from various positions you are in

kraigwy · March 27, 2014, 11:40 AM

Quote:

I think the OP is asking about carrying the gun in different positions on the body, not presenting the gun from various positions you are in

Regardless: if you can't draw and fire, hitting the center mass of a man size target in less then 1/2 second, you need to reevaluate your gun or method of carry.

Derbel McDillet · March 27, 2014, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Both you and your partner are facing your respective target. Your gun is concealed. Your partner points his pistol at the target ready to shoots. He fires as soon as he sees you start to draw. Again after a bit of practice you can draw and shoot before he can fire.

Parlour tricks...

The first rule of a gunfight is, "Don't get shot!" How does this kind of training keep your students from being shot?

Handgun bullets take time to incapacitate and believing you can just stand there and draw and shoot a bad guy that has you at gunpoint is training your students to fail.

kraigwy · March 27, 2014, 02:34 PM

These so called "parlor tricks" started being taught across the nation Law Enforcement Departments after the story of "the Onion Field" came out.

LE officers were taught to never give up their guns, to fight back. These "parlor tricks" gave them the tools needed to survive.

If we were to try these methods instead of condemn then you'll see most shots are low, hitting the target in the stomach area.

Anyone (which includes just about all of us) knows what happens when you get hit in the stomach. You drop what ever is in your hand, grab you stomach and bend over.

Our goal is not to kill bandits but to stop the treat.

Gut shooting was taught by Captain's Fairbairn & Sykes, "Shooting to live". Fairbairn was directly or in directly involved in over 200 shootings.

As you mentioned, few shoots instantly kill the suspect, but gut shots almost always stop them.

Regardless, doing something, even if you condemn it, beats the heck out of surrendering and not fighting back.

tahunua001 · March 27, 2014, 02:45 PM

by multipositional, meaning from different stances yes I do multi position drills.

by multipositional meaning my holster in different spots, no I do not. I carry in the position that is most comfortable, there is no reason to carry in another location.

Derbel McDillet · March 27, 2014, 03:40 PM

Quote:

These so called "parlor tricks" started being taught across the nation Law Enforcement Departments after the story of "the Onion Field" came out.

Having been an LEO and involved at a national level in the officer survival movement of the 1980s and 1990s, I've never encountered anyone or any entity advocating this alleged 1960s law enforcement training.

Quote:

Anyone (which includes just about all of us) knows what happens when you get hit in the stomach. You drop what ever is in your hand, grab you stomach and bend over.

Just like deer that are gut shot with centerfire rifle bullets in stop in their tracks, eh? If deer can continue to function and engage in strenous physical activity (run away) after being gut shot, so, too, can a human attacker.

This claim of reliably and rapidly stopping bad guys by gut shooting them is speculation and fantasy.

Sharkbite · March 27, 2014, 03:44 PM

Quote:

I.E, practicing handgun presentation from positions in which you don't normally carry?

The term "carry" was misunderstood. I have been teaching shooting from unusual positions since before i started as an instructor at Front Sight in the 90's in Bakersfield.

The advanced Tactics classes have always had some of this kind of training. When i started teaching at Valhalla with Rob. This was a mainstay of extreme close quarters shooting

Life aint a square range and we need to be able to draw and fire effectively from WHATEVER position we happen to be in at the time.

I think .5 seconds from a true concealed holster is a GREAT time but, again,!that is on a square range with an anticipated go signal and a clearly defined target. That is not how attacks happen. You need to train in the entire spectrum of OODA loops in force on force encounters.

ANY range excersises should be to build new skills. Not show off times to hits. Once the range skills are built to a point of safe competence... Its time to really train the MIND by getting in front of a living THINKING psudo-adversary. Nothing else is a realistic mark of preparedness.

I dont care how fast and accurate you are on a square range against a static target... That aint what real life is like. PERIOD

Shoot paper drills to build gun handeling and safety skills, but dont stop there. Its only the tip of whats needed

Sharkbite · March 27, 2014, 03:53 PM

Addendum...

Anyone that is teaching to stand and "out draw" an already pointed gun is teaching bad tactics.

The need to have the ability to draw and shoot him before he shoot you is LUDICROUS!!!!

One word.... "Movement"

To me that is a silly and pointless drill. Even if your students can do it on the range "most of the time". I would not want to be the one teaching them thats the proper response.

We have advanced in our handgun tactics well beyond "be faster on the draw". What wild west nonsense

Bryant Tactical · March 29, 2014, 03:50 PM

It's hard to look at how many people have closed minds to different types of training and drills. It would suck to get dead b/c you thought what someone did as training was ignorant. I could/can understand if the person's views, drills, or advice is unsafe or detrimental to the student. How many of those new shooters cruise this forum to see what "senior members" and tactical trainers are saying and doing? Even if it's just one, that's to many. We need to open our minds and work together to develop effective and safe practices for students we may have. We are not each others foes.

kraigwy · March 29, 2014, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Addendum...

Anyone that is teaching to stand and "out draw" an already pointed gun is teaching bad tactics.

The need to have the ability to draw and shoot him before he shoot you is LUDICROUS!!!!

One word.... "Movement"

To me that is a silly and pointless drill. Even if your students can do it on the range "most of the time". I would not want to be the one teaching them thats the proper response.

We have advanced in our handgun tactics well beyond "be faster on the draw". What wild west nonsense

I have a "technical adviser" who helps with my class. She Has a Masters if Forensic Firearms Investigation from Syracuse University NY, In her training and practice she's investigated thousands of gun related incidents. As to distance, the huge majority of "civilian" shooting are within 5-6 feet.

Not much time for movement. Fighting back is not expected, bandits expect compliance. There in lies the element of surprise.

In the drills I mentioned one cannot fire (though ready) before the other can draw and fire, Knowing the party is going to draw. How much more of an advantage would one have when the unexpected in inserted.

I agree there are times when movement works, there are other times when there is no other option but to fight back. You do have a chance of surviving if you fight back, you have zero chance if you surrender.

40-82 · March 29, 2014, 05:54 PM

When should you surrender to a violent criminal? I suppose that depends on how you view the encounter. If its a matter of losing your wallet with a small amount of cash, credit cards that you can cancel, maybe a ring and a watch then none of those things are worth risking your life. Many explain to anyone who will listen that a encounter with a violent criminal is a sort of unfortunate business transaction, an annoyance but ultimately less costly than scratching the paint on a new car or an upscale kitchen appliance conking out. Maybe we owe something to these people because social services and the schools failed them. If you believe any of that go ahead and surrender at the first hint of threat.

For those who have some appreciation for the depths of man's inhumanity to man dying in a gunfight is not the worst thing that can happen. Notice Kraigwy didn't say that you would win he said, "You have a chance of surviving if you fight back." If you don't fight back what is likely to happen to you could be worse than death. I think its commendable that Kraigwy teaches people who would not normally train with weapons how to defend themselves in situations most would consider hopeless. Drawing on a drawn gun is nobody's ideal situation, but neither is it as hopeless as most would believe.

Angelo Demuerte · March 30, 2014, 03:01 PM

When I posted this topic, my intent was too inquire as too how common other ccwers practice drawing a pistol from a carry position they don't normally utilize. I tire of hearing people repeat the same old rhetoric of same position, everytime, alleging that any variation in your edc set up is bad. We aren't one trick ponies. We can learn to operate from various position... what if you sustain an injury that puts your dominate arm in a sling? Are you just going to shelf your carry piece until you recover? You need to be able to operate in more than one mode, you need to learn to switch modes and methods if need be.

Sharkbite · March 30, 2014, 03:28 PM

So you ARE asking about drawing the pistol from different carry positions on the body???

VERDAD · March 31, 2014, 07:06 PM

We offer training from "non-conventional" shooting platforms as others explained in this thread, as well as from any draw position or hand position one might have. If you plan to change the location of your carry weapon(s), you should train with both hand access to all carry locations. Train when down, train when limbs are rendered 'unusable', etc.

If a person is wounded in strong hand, ideally they have trained to access the weapon-or back up weapon with the alternative hand, if they are down, we train for "down not out". One must remain in the fight with the goal to prevail.

There is no way to predict so training should include movement, positional changes, options for cover and/or conceallment, retreat as well as returning fire from any weapon you have access to from any position. We train it all.

March 26, 2014, 07:15 PM	#1
Angelo Demuerte Member Join Date: February 5, 2009 Posts: 31	Multi-position drills? Just curious as to whether or not anyone does this... Is there anyone on here who practices presentation from multiple positions? I.E, practicing handgun presentation from positions in which you don't normally carry?

March 27, 2014, 09:59 AM	#2
dawg23 Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2001 Location: Louisiana Posts: 403	I would respectfully suggest a different approach -- Bianchi's Law. Bianchi's Law is periodically worded in slightly different ways, but is essentially quoted as "Carry the same gun, in the same holster, in the same place, all the time." __________________ . www.PersonalDefenseTraining.net

March 27, 2014, 10:52 AM	#3
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	I run unconventional classes. They are defense classes not target shooting, meaning its based on reality positions and not target stances. Example: Shooting while seated in a car; car jacking Shooting while seated on a couch or recliner; home invasions Shooting from bed; home invasions Shooting while seated at a dinner table; home invasion, restaurant attacks Shooting while laying on the ground: Being knocked on your butt at an atm or victim of knock out games. Drawing and shooting from a diaper bag while pushing a stroller Drawing and shooting while pulling a toddler (large rag doll) behind you for cover Drawing and shooting while pushing a shopping cart at the target Drawing and shooting while pulling on a purse which is attached to the target stand Draw and fire while tossing your wallet at the target; mugging Read crime reports in the paper for other scenarios one might encounter IN ADDITION: I teach that just because one has his gun pointed at you, does not mean you're at a disadvantage. Drill I Using a blue plastic training gun (Never use a real gun, empty or loaded), Stand in front of your partner with the gun concealed. Your partner stands with his elbows at his side, arms extended shoulder width a part. When your partner sees you start to draw, he claps his hands. With just bit of practice you can always get the gun between the hands before they come together. Drill II Both you and your partner are facing your respective target. Your gun is concealed. Your partner points his pistol at the target ready to shoots. He fires as soon as he sees you start to draw. Again after a bit of practice you can draw and shoot before he can fire. Remember you can act faster then you can re-act. In the two above drills your partner KNOWS you're going to draw, but cant react in time. Where as when confronted by a bandit, he is expecting compliance not drawing of a weapon. Distraction helps, if the one is talking he cant shoot. He had to recognize your threat, stop talking, and respond. This gives you the advantage. One thing you need to do, is practice drawing and firing. Use a shot timer, if you can't draw and fire, hitting the center mass of a man size target in less then 1/2 second, you need to reevaluate your gun or method of carry. Many will doubt my above comments (drills), all those who haven't tried it do. I demonstrate the two drills mentioned, and in my ladies only SD Class every one of them say they cant do it, after a two hour session, every one of them can. I can one lady who is 87 years old and has a bad case of arthritis. It didn't take long for her to get where she can successfully complete the drills and is getting pretty close to getting to the 1/2 sec. speed I mentioned. Again, this is for SD, not target shooting. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071 Last edited by kraigwy; March 27, 2014 at 11:41 AM.

March 27, 2014, 02:34 PM	#7
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	These so called "parlor tricks" started being taught across the nation Law Enforcement Departments after the story of "the Onion Field" came out. LE officers were taught to never give up their guns, to fight back. These "parlor tricks" gave them the tools needed to survive. If we were to try these methods instead of condemn then you'll see most shots are low, hitting the target in the stomach area. Anyone (which includes just about all of us) knows what happens when you get hit in the stomach. You drop what ever is in your hand, grab you stomach and bend over. Our goal is not to kill bandits but to stop the treat. Gut shooting was taught by Captain's Fairbairn & Sykes, "Shooting to live". Fairbairn was directly or in directly involved in over 200 shootings. As you mentioned, few shoots instantly kill the suspect, but gut shots almost always stop them. Regardless, doing something, even if you condemn it, beats the heck out of surrendering and not fighting back. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

March 27, 2014, 02:45 PM	#8
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	by multipositional, meaning from different stances yes I do multi position drills. by multipositional meaning my holster in different spots, no I do not. I carry in the position that is most comfortable, there is no reason to carry in another location. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

March 27, 2014, 11:14 AM	#4
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	I think the OP is asking about carrying the gun in different positions on the body, not presenting the gun from various positions you are in

March 27, 2014, 03:53 PM	#11
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	Addendum... Anyone that is teaching to stand and "out draw" an already pointed gun is teaching bad tactics. The need to have the ability to draw and shoot him before he shoot you is LUDICROUS!!!! One word.... "Movement" To me that is a silly and pointless drill. Even if your students can do it on the range "most of the time". I would not want to be the one teaching them thats the proper response. We have advanced in our handgun tactics well beyond "be faster on the draw". What wild west nonsense

March 29, 2014, 03:50 PM	#12
Bryant Tactical Junior Member Join Date: March 29, 2014 Posts: 2	Closed minds It's hard to look at how many people have closed minds to different types of training and drills. It would suck to get dead b/c you thought what someone did as training was ignorant. I could/can understand if the person's views, drills, or advice is unsafe or detrimental to the student. How many of those new shooters cruise this forum to see what "senior members" and tactical trainers are saying and doing? Even if it's just one, that's to many. We need to open our minds and work together to develop effective and safe practices for students we may have. We are not each others foes.

March 29, 2014, 05:54 PM	#14
40-82 Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2013 Posts: 178	When should you surrender to a violent criminal? I suppose that depends on how you view the encounter. If its a matter of losing your wallet with a small amount of cash, credit cards that you can cancel, maybe a ring and a watch then none of those things are worth risking your life. Many explain to anyone who will listen that a encounter with a violent criminal is a sort of unfortunate business transaction, an annoyance but ultimately less costly than scratching the paint on a new car or an upscale kitchen appliance conking out. Maybe we owe something to these people because social services and the schools failed them. If you believe any of that go ahead and surrender at the first hint of threat. For those who have some appreciation for the depths of man's inhumanity to man dying in a gunfight is not the worst thing that can happen. Notice Kraigwy didn't say that you would win he said, "You have a chance of surviving if you fight back." If you don't fight back what is likely to happen to you could be worse than death. I think its commendable that Kraigwy teaches people who would not normally train with weapons how to defend themselves in situations most would consider hopeless. Drawing on a drawn gun is nobody's ideal situation, but neither is it as hopeless as most would believe.

March 30, 2014, 03:01 PM	#15
Angelo Demuerte Member Join Date: February 5, 2009 Posts: 31	When I posted this topic, my intent was too inquire as too how common other ccwers practice drawing a pistol from a carry position they don't normally utilize. I tire of hearing people repeat the same old rhetoric of same position, everytime, alleging that any variation in your edc set up is bad. We aren't one trick ponies. We can learn to operate from various position... what if you sustain an injury that puts your dominate arm in a sling? Are you just going to shelf your carry piece until you recover? You need to be able to operate in more than one mode, you need to learn to switch modes and methods if need be.

March 30, 2014, 03:28 PM	#16
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	So you ARE asking about drawing the pistol from different carry positions on the body???

March 31, 2014, 07:06 PM	#17
VERDAD Member Join Date: December 4, 2010 Location: CENTRAL NY Posts: 22	Train from all possible positions/carry options We offer training from "non-conventional" shooting platforms as others explained in this thread, as well as from any draw position or hand position one might have. If you plan to change the location of your carry weapon(s), you should train with both hand access to all carry locations. Train when down, train when limbs are rendered 'unusable', etc. If a person is wounded in strong hand, ideally they have trained to access the weapon-or back up weapon with the alternative hand, if they are down, we train for "down not out". One must remain in the fight with the goal to prevail. There is no way to predict so training should include movement, positional changes, options for cover and/or conceallment, retreat as well as returning fire from any weapon you have access to from any position. We train it all.