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Old January 16, 2021, 03:06 PM   #26
Doc TH
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Bolt rifles

The original poster stated:
"I don't understand why some people prefer bolt action due to it always having a lower rate of fire."
While a faster rate of fire can have importance in military applications, and rarely in law enforcement, its relevance in most civilian applications is minimal.
For the military, suppressive fire is a useful tactical principle in some circumstances. For law enforcement, a rapid rate of fire is beneficial only in very limited circumstances, and has the potential to dramatically increase risk to the public. For example, in 2012 two NYPD officers shot and killed an armed murderer in front of the Empire State building. The two rapidly fired a total of 16 rounds; 7 hit the perpetrator, but 9 bystanders were also hit with bullets or fragments. Now there is no doubt that they did the right thing, what they were sworn to do. But in this case one has to wonder if the "rate of fire" was a factor in the civilian injuries, which fortunately did not result in deaths. In NYC, semiauto rifles are issued to only specially trained police, such as the Emergency Services Division, or more recently, antiterrorism units, in part due to the potential risk to the public.
In civilian self-defense incidents, the available data make it clear that aimed shots that actually strike a miscreant are the most critical factor, not the number of rounds fired.
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Old January 16, 2021, 04:58 PM   #27
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Don't need to chase brass and easier on brass for reloading, quieter suppressed.
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Old January 16, 2021, 05:38 PM   #28
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Depends on the use.
Bolt actions are able to be lighter and/or more accurate for the price. (Semi auto rifles can be very accurate, it is just more difficult/expensive)

Semi auto allows faster follow up shots.

So, for military, law enforcement, self defense, pest control of herd/pack animals, or fast-paced shooting sports, semi auto has significant advantages. For ultra-precision shooting sports or hunting (with lots of hiking), bolt guns have advantages.
For casual target shooters, a bolt gun will slow you down and probably save on ammo costs, haha.
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Old January 16, 2021, 11:09 PM   #29
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Bolt guns make it easier to find spent brass than semis--break-open single shots are even better than bolt guns in that respect.
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Old January 17, 2021, 01:18 PM   #30
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I have had military style semi's that I used for hunting, I never trusted commercial semi's to be reliable or rugged enough not to mention they were more expensive. But the military semi's are already heavy, add a scope mount and scope and they become prohibitively heavy. For hunting applications I have found bolt-actions to be the best compromise as they are simple, rugged, less expensive, usually more accurate and usually lighter than their semi counterparts. One feature of semi's that I prefer is the detachable magazine, so I found a bolt gun that has detachable mags and it's close to perfect for me. One can learn to work the bolt pretty quickly if necessary.
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Old January 17, 2021, 01:26 PM   #31
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I just couldn't get used to the CLANG SHLANG WHANG BLANG of a semi auto. Very unnerving all that apparatus doing its thing right next to my head. Haven't had any dealings with one for quite a while, don't miss it a bit.

Bolt guns and wheel guns are where it's at.

RJ
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Old January 29, 2021, 09:29 PM   #32
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RJ nails it. For me it's just the old school action of the bolt. I have ARs and some good match grade ones, but it always goes back the the bolt. When I got back into shooting 20 years ago I picked a tube fed Marlin 981T .22 off the rack simply because of the bolt. It's been re stocked, trigger upgraded and has good glass. That is still my favorite rifle bar none. My latest favorite is a CZ 527.
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Old January 29, 2021, 11:52 PM   #33
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For off-hand shooting with ease of rapid, repeat stay on target follow-up--no contest, my AR 15's always win (for me). That's one key advantage they have IMO, otherwise I have no real preference, I like whatever shoots accurately.
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Old January 30, 2021, 04:14 PM   #34
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I don't mind a semi-auto 22 rimfire rifle...but for centerfires, I'll take a bolt-action or lever-action.
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Old January 30, 2021, 08:54 PM   #35
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Here is pretty nice Garand

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=238286
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Old January 31, 2021, 10:09 AM   #36
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I shoot both, but more bolt action lately. I'm conserving rifle primers but I do have a good supply of small and large pistol magnum primers which work great for reduced rifle loads in bolt guns. I still enjoy my AR's, Mini 14's and an M1A, but exploring reduced load shooting in the bolt guns is a hoot. I have no problems with pierced primers. Accuracy can be amazing, even in sporter weight barrels.
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Old January 31, 2021, 12:12 PM   #37
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I enjoy both semi and bolt, for fun shooting and for hunting. I have taken numerous deer using one of my Garands. But if I have a buck tag and want to hedge all my bets I will grab my Model 70 to hunt with. Dollar for dollar spent a bolt will out shoot a semi. That being side, shooting a deer at a 100 yards make pretty big targets so a MOA vs 1.5 MOA rifle won't make much different if you do your job. But my main concern is function, I have hunted in snow storms at -15 and bright and sunny 50 degree days. I have seen too many semis jam or have cycling issues in bad weather, whether they are shot guns or rifles. Most issues caused by stiff lube, or a dirty gun,but either way it can cause you to miss a chance at filling a tag.
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Old January 31, 2021, 01:55 PM   #38
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I have seen too many semis jam or have cycling issues in bad weather, whether they are shot guns or rifles. Most issues caused by stiff lube, or a dirty gun,but either way it can cause you to miss a chance at filling a tag.
And the same can happen to bolt guns as well. Particularly in extreme cold weather. Too much and the wrong kind of oil can gum up the bolt action's firing pin so it doesn't fire the rifle. Or the trigger, with the same result. It's not the fault of the action design, it is operator error, failure to properly lube the gun for existing conditions. (and sometimes, that means no lube at all is better than the wrong lube).

Another lesson learned from winter hunting camps is that, when practical, your rifle should "live outside" until the hunt is over. In other words, get cold and stay cold. taking them inside a heated cabin, or even a tent if its warm enough makes them sweat (condensation) which means a tear down and wipe down after they've warmed up, and it can also cause scope fogging issues though less likely with modern scopes than in the past.

If you're fine with doing that at the end of each day's hunt, fine. But be sure to do a complete job, because if you miss any condensate, that can cause rust when its warm and turn to ice jamming the mechanism when you go back out into the cold.
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Old January 31, 2021, 02:41 PM   #39
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Is this a bait and run Glockcarry?

You really to talk about purpose to go further.
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Old January 31, 2021, 02:53 PM   #40
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Looks like it Nathan. Somewhere another forum is laughing.
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Old January 31, 2021, 10:11 PM   #41
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I’m guessing a Glock forum!
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Old February 2, 2021, 02:30 AM   #42
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I have both. When I really want to work on my accuracy skills I use bolt. It requires more time and concentration. Those same skills transfer over to my very accurate semi. I also reload my ammo to (best I can) comparable to match grade or better ammo. The bolt guns also range time from minutes to hours. With my semis I never get to the fatigued state that affects my shooting. With the bolt guns I get much more of a workout. With a box of 50 reloads the bolt gun can manage a couple of hours at the range. The semis can burn that amount in half the time or less. My greatest skill advances come from the bolt guns, not the semis. That skill transfers to the semis though. I showed this once with my Ar hitting 10 head shots in a row at 500 yards with what I call slow rapid fire. I find it harder to advance my skills on a semi than transfer them to the semi from the bolt.
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Old February 2, 2021, 08:15 AM   #43
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Quote:
M1's and M14's have put 24 shots inside 12 inches at 600 yards in 50 seconds shot from prone.

Don't know of any bolt gun doing that.
Most shooters are not capable of that. Most shooters have no need to do that. Pick the right tool for the job.
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Old February 2, 2021, 11:13 AM   #44
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One shot dead Deer.
Two shot Maby
three shot Vegetarian
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Old February 2, 2021, 12:29 PM   #45
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I don't think cartridge choice has been mentioned yet.
You can find a bolt action in just about any cartridge ever made.

The autos require a LOT of work to add new calibers and possibly even more to add Old calibers. Any .40-60 auto-loaders out there? .32-20?
Yes there are other cartridges that may have similar performance but not the same cartridges.
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Old February 2, 2021, 11:10 PM   #46
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For example, in 2012 two NYPD officers shot and killed an armed murderer in front of the Empire State building. The two rapidly fired a total of 16 rounds; 7 hit the perpetrator, but 9 bystanders were also hit with bullets or fragments. Now there is no doubt that they did the right thing, what they were sworn to do. But in this case one has to wonder if the "rate of fire" was a factor in the civilian injuries, which fortunately did not result in deaths.
while it would possibly have been worse had they police had high capacity RIFLES, I believe that the police in that 2012 incident used their service pistols.

Had the police in that incident been armed with revolvers, they probably would have only fired 12 rounds. Had they been armed with 5 shot bolt actions, then they probably would have only fired 10....

Reports of the shooting state that the bad guy raised his gun, but did not fire, so its possible he chose "suicide by cop". Even if true, the really sad thing is other than the bad guy, 3 people were directly shot by the police (and 6 more wounded due to ricochets or fragments from objects bullets struck).

Spray and pray does sometimes work, but the collateral damage makes it a very VERY bad idea for anyone who doesn't have a major city administration's deep pockets...

and even then, its still a VERY bad idea....
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Old February 3, 2021, 11:31 AM   #47
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Back in the day bolt guns were more accurate than semis, they were also available in any caliber you wanted. For a hunting rifle(big game) a rapid rate of fire usually isn't needed(big game hunters in Africa chose a double barrel in a lot of cases tho when hunting dangerous game) . Old guys like me (76 next birthday) still use a bolt gun for deer hunting. I have never needed the rapid fire capability of a semi. In my limited match shooting(22 LR) I prefer the semi over the bolt gun because you mount the gun, no extra movement between shots. Mount the gun sent 5 rounds down range, this is easier for me. Most likely the AR rifles win the service rifle matches, too old to try this now, too poor back in the day. My 2 cents.
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Old February 3, 2021, 01:24 PM   #48
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For a hunting rifle(big game) a rapid rate of fire usually isn't needed(big game hunters in Africa chose a double barrel in a lot of cases tho when hunting dangerous game) .
PH's in Africa have been choosing double rifles not for the rapidity of a second shot but for the certainty of having that second shot available at need. The double rifle for dangerous game isn't just two barrels on the same action, it is two separate actions (lockworks) in a single housing. Those guys were literally betting their lives, and they felt that having a complete second rifle "built in" meant is was less likely that both would fail at the same time.

Capstick once wrote something like "the most frightening sound in the world is not the roar of a bomb or the crash of a shell, but the sound of a click when you expect bang!"

Double rifles do offer a fast second shot (but only one), they were, and still are chosen when possible, for having that second shot available (without working the action) by pulling the second trigger, and were felt to be more reliable to deliver that shot than any other rifle mechanism on earth.

A "properly built" bolt gun runs a close second, and economics has made them the dominant choice of the modern era. Semi auto rifles aren't even considered for dangerous game even in those rare areas where they are allowed.
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Old February 3, 2021, 02:37 PM   #49
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Some years ago, I watched a military show, a segment of which was about the M-14 7.62. They were brought out of stockade for reliability in Iraq and Afghanistan dense sand conditions that were wreaking havoc on issued M4s. A soldier demonstrated operation of the M-14. It was extremely accurate for battlefield condition to 600 yards. I've watched Vietnam War documentaries of US soldiers killing enemy soldiers with M-14s at a thousand and more yards distant with open sights. That is one accurate rife.

The Vietnam fiasco began with soldiers using the M-14. It was reliable in the most harsh jungle conditions. And when NVA and Cong were hit with a 7.62 round, it was all over.

The M-14 was replaced with the initially not always reliable M-16. Many US soldiers wanted their M-14s back.

The M-14s only negatives were weight and number of ammo that could be carried.

A modified M-14 might make an excellent North American big game rifle. There's no question of what the .308 Win will do because it's done it all. Accuracy ain't an issue. The M-14 is probably more accurate than most bolts. The issue for me would be weight.

Wisdom acquired from harsh experience has taught me that a reliable and accurate big game rifle with a weight of no more than 7 pounds scope included would be ideal for Rocky Mountain big game hunting.

I would consider the M-14 as one of the best battle rifles ever designed, even better than the divine Garand which was one extremely accurate rifle. It's rub was it was clip fed.
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Old February 3, 2021, 02:40 PM   #50
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Hi Old Roper,

Quote:
Here is pretty nice Garand
Thanks for the link. That Garand was one gorgeous rifle.
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