The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 27, 2020, 09:41 AM   #26
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 2,969
44 magnum
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is online now  
Old December 27, 2020, 11:07 AM   #27
Sanch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2020
Posts: 154
Hi JohnKsa

Knowing futility is wisdom.
Sanch is offline  
Old December 27, 2020, 11:15 AM   #28
Sanch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2020
Posts: 154
Good Morning Nanuk,

The .44 Rem Mag is an authentic North American big game hunting cartridge. It's many leagues beyond the .45 ACP, which is an offensive combat cartridge. I'd hunt anything in North America, including the largest and meanest bears, with a .44 Rem Mag fired from a handy rifle provided that targets are within range of the cartridge. 300 grain bullets fired from a 16" barreled rifle .44 Rem Mag rifle is a whole lot of devastation.

The rub is the .44 Rem Mag generates unwieldy and often painful recoil when fired from handguns.
Sanch is offline  
Old December 27, 2020, 01:41 PM   #29
mikejonestkd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2006
Location: Brockport, NY
Posts: 3,550
Quote:
Knowing futility is wisdom.
JohnKSA was effectively dismissing your comparison between bullets and arrows when hunting. They are not comparable, as the mechanism for providing an animal's death are too different.
__________________
You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
mikejonestkd is offline  
Old December 27, 2020, 01:49 PM   #30
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 22,951
Quote:
It's many leagues beyond the .45 ACP, which is an offensive combat cartridge.
I don't find anything offensive about the .45acp cartridge...
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old December 27, 2020, 04:31 PM   #31
Sanch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2020
Posts: 154
Happy New Year 44AMP,

Quote:
I don't find anything offensive about the .45acp cartridge
I don't either. However, our combat enemies and assorted Prohibition Era gangsters complained that the 1911-A1 .45 ACP was an unfair advantage ;-)

I believe the US Army sent cases of Kleenex to whiny enemy combatants. US cops dispatched coroners to complainants who whined about cops using military surplus 1911-A1 .45 ACP handguns to end their carnage.
Sanch is offline  
Old December 27, 2020, 04:35 PM   #32
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 23,508
Quote:
Knowing futility is wisdom.
Perhaps. But since this forum is about sharing information and more than just the discussion participants will read it, I feel like it's reasonable to share information even when it seems futile.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old December 28, 2020, 01:27 PM   #33
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 22,951
Never ever before heard about our combat enemies complaining the .45 was an unfair advantage... sometimes I do wonder where these kinds of ideas come from...but then, I really don't care ...

During WWI Germany "complained" about our use of the 12 gauge shotgun. Get this, the people who introduced POISON GAS and FLAMETHROWERS to combat complained about our using shotguns....

Never saw or heard any historical evidence they complained about the .45ACP round....
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old December 28, 2020, 04:02 PM   #34
Sanch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2020
Posts: 154
Hi 44AMP,

I was joking.

Apparently incinerating enemy soldiers with artillery strikes and napalm is permissible, but hollow point ammo isn't. I know there's gotta be logic somewhere in that reasoning.
Sanch is offline  
Old December 28, 2020, 05:21 PM   #35
Pistoler0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2019
Location: Conifer, CO
Posts: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanch View Post
Hi 44AMP,

I was joking.

Apparently incinerating enemy soldiers with artillery strikes and napalm is permissible, but hollow point ammo isn't. I know there's gotta be logic somewhere in that reasoning.
Ah, yes, hypocrisy.

Execution by lethal injection or in gas chamber is humane, guillotine is not.

Hunting is cruel, eating the meat from an industrially killed animal is ok.

Taking my property by eminent domain or through asset forfeiture or through a crafty legal strategy is ok, but if I take someone else's by brute force it is not.

Who makes the rules uh?

Hey do the dirty deed in my behalf, as long as I don't get to see it.
__________________
Life is simply an inter-temporal problem of constrained optimization.

Last edited by Pistoler0; December 28, 2020 at 05:29 PM.
Pistoler0 is offline  
Old December 28, 2020, 05:37 PM   #36
Pistoler0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2019
Location: Conifer, CO
Posts: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow9mm View Post
per google, it is generally between 1500 to 2000 depending on which source and or state manual you reference. Deer and black bear are generally in the 1000ft lb range.
Yeah, I agree, Chuck Hawks says 1,200:
https://www.chuckhawks.com/elk_cartridges.htm

45 Super is a bit short of that out the muzzle from a carbine.
But maybe ok for deer, bear and hogs then!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srkiiclqhZE

But what I was saying from the graphs in the OP, is that out of a carbine, 45 Super performs better than 10mm!!

And in that sense, 45 Super is better suited for hunting.
__________________
Life is simply an inter-temporal problem of constrained optimization.

Last edited by Pistoler0; December 28, 2020 at 05:45 PM.
Pistoler0 is offline  
Old December 29, 2020, 01:35 PM   #37
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 22,951
First point:
Everybody has their own opinion about how much is needed for elk.

Elmer Keith often wrote that a rifle of at least .33 caliber was needed (particularly in the hands of people he guided), not due to energy, but because a .33 or larger left a bigger hole and a better blood trail.

Lots and lots of elk have been taken with rounds that somebody considered "too light". Apparently no one told the elk the bullet that killed them wasn't enough...

Second point:

If there is a game law requirement for energy needed, then that is the rule. If there isn't then there isn't any rule. Doesn't matter what google or some internet web guy says is "minimum" that's just their opinion.

A couple decades ago, my state had such a rule for handguns, 500ft/lbs for deer/bear, 1,000 for elk. They also had a barrel length rule, and specifically excluded certain rounds such as 9mm and .45acp.

The intent was to ensure hunters were using enough gun. After some years and finding out that hunters were not using underpowered arms, they dropped those requirements. Today there is no energy requirement in my state.

Remember, game laws are not about what is needed in order to work, they are about what best suits game management ideals, which vary widely across the country.

third point:
The BULLET
while a given round may make one's desired energy level (in this case, from a carbine) take a good look at what that velocity does to the bullet.

Bullets designed and built to expand at a certain velocity range can be seriously overdriven by carbine speeds. One of the more famous examples of this is the .357 Magnum 125gr JHP, fired from a carbine. Take a bullet designed to open up in the 1400fps range and push it to 2200fps and it simply acts differently. In effect, it becomes a varmint bullet, expanding violently or even "blowing up", usually with a resulting lack of penetration.

the same thing happens with a .30-30 bullet fired from a .300 Magnum or a .45-70 bullet fired with "Ruger only" level loads. The bullets are simply being driven faster than designed for, and their performance on game suffers as a result.

Which leads me to the .45 Super from a carbine, for elk (or any other big game). What is the pistol bullet going to do when you push it 500+ fps faster??

Using a hard cast bullet or "solid", the increase in speed and energy doesn't negatively affect bullet performance (not hunting elephant here) but an expanding bullet's penetration can be ruined by driving it too fast, SO, CAREFUL bullet selection is the key here. You may have all the energy needed, but if the bullet "blows up" and creates a large shallow wound, instead of penetrating to the vital organs, you've failed in your responsibility as a sportsman.

Most factory ammo for pistol rounds will be loaded with "pistol" bullets. You'll get high speed and high energy numbers shooting them from a carbine, but it is that bullet performance in game that matters.

SO, talk to the ammo /bullet makers and see what they say about their bullet and the speed you get from carbine barrels. Your choices might be more limited than you think. Use the right bullet, go for it. Use the wrong one, and you're not being a responsible hunter.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old December 29, 2020, 03:48 PM   #38
wild cat mccane
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 2,126
AMP nailed it.

Going fast on a bullet not made for it? Not good.

If you push a bullet too fast, the bullet will open up too fast. That will either slow down penetration (drag increased from the increased thrust) or the bullet fail and shred itself (pedals break, jacket separates, less weighted piece becomes the main bullet) which isn't the point in a handgun load.

There are some gel test out there showing these hot rod lots under penetrate because they dump their added thrust on a too early opened point.

XTP or a solid copper like Barnes XPB or Lehigh Penetrator? Isn't going to deform against pretty much anything. Don't even need to get hard cast "outdoor" labeled loads.
__________________
My wife is a pulmonologist (respiratory Dr) and epidemiologist. If you have any questions on COVID, please reach out to me in PM.
wild cat mccane is offline  
Old December 31, 2020, 01:44 PM   #39
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 2,969
Sanch, I disagree with your thought about recoil. With a proficient shooter recoil of this level is extremely controllable. One of my carry guns is a S&W model 69. Loaded with 200 grain Gold Dots over a charge of Win 296 it is just what the Doctor ordered.

You are not alone, many people today do not like magnum revolvers for defense. I have seen enough people shot with them to have tremendous respect for it. I even had an ScTi 44. Magnum, it was not at all unpleasant to shoot. It would just pull bullets no matter how they were crimped. A 12oz 357 magnum is very painful.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is online now  
Old December 31, 2020, 01:49 PM   #40
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 2,969
Wild cat, fragmentation with handgun bullets was a thing before bonded bullets. My experience on the street indicated to me that this was a good thing. It creates a devastating would, which cause more pain, more wounding and a higher likelyhood of quicker incapacitation.

As long as it does not fragment to the point of exploding........

I saw an xray from one shooting with a 110 grain Remington SJHP fired from a 2 1/2" revolver. The bullets literally exploded on impact. The BG was DRT. It was impressive, but I would never trust it for anything but that exact shot.


But alas, for hunting fragmentation is bad.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is online now  
Old January 4, 2021, 11:11 PM   #41
Big Shrek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: NorthWest Florida
Posts: 1,358
.45Super is a heck of a round!
https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/th...hread.1593879/

Most difficult thing is doing the reloading yourself...
you can't find the ammo anywhere...only Starline brass to make yer own.
__________________
Marlin Specialist
Calico Specialist
A gun should be a tool in the hands of a deadly weapon, not a deadly weapon in the hands of a tool.
Big Shrek is offline  
Old January 5, 2021, 12:16 PM   #42
Pistoler0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2019
Location: Conifer, CO
Posts: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Shrek View Post
I have been trying to join GlockTalk in order to post in that particular thread, but for whatever reason it restricts me and keeps me from posting.

But it THE thread to read for those interested in 45 Super
__________________
Life is simply an inter-temporal problem of constrained optimization.
Pistoler0 is offline  
Old January 5, 2021, 01:24 PM   #43
Koda94
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2012
Location: Cascadia
Posts: 1,255
I thought the 45 Super became obsolete and was replaced by the 45SMC?
__________________
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2
Koda94 is offline  
Old January 5, 2021, 01:30 PM   #44
Pistoler0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2019
Location: Conifer, CO
Posts: 288
Both are in production. I prefer 450 SMC, but I can only find it factory loaded from Double Tap.

45 Super I can find for Underwood, Buffalo Bore and others.
__________________
Life is simply an inter-temporal problem of constrained optimization.
Pistoler0 is offline  
Old January 5, 2021, 01:52 PM   #45
Koda94
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2012
Location: Cascadia
Posts: 1,255
Interesting,
Are the two rounds interchangeable?
__________________
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2
Koda94 is offline  
Old January 5, 2021, 07:51 PM   #46
Scorch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 14,490
Quote:
My understanding is for elk you generally need or want 1800 flt lb for a clean kill.
Um, uh, no. About 50 years ago (as an eager youmg teenage lad), I was reading in a gun rag of some sort (Outdoor Life, Field & Stream, or whatever), and the argument was being made to set minimum energy levels for big game, deer was postulated to be 600 ft-lbs minimum for a clean kill, elk 1,000 ft-lbs for a clean kill. Some knowledgeable folks were saying that shot placement was more important than energy, but that 500 ft-lbs would be adequate for deer, 800 ft-lbs for elk. This would keep from outlawing several well-respected big game cartridges (44-40, 38-40, 38-55, 250 Savage, and others of their ilk). Basically, the argument was that shooters have a hard time shooting magnums, and a miss with a magnum is still a miss, and a hit with a standard caliber rifle is still a hit, and it doesn't really take that much to kill a deer. I don't want to get into the argument itself, but if 1000 ft-lbs was adequate for elk 50 years ago, it will be adequate for elk even in the 21st Century. But people 50 years ago generally got closer to the animals to shoot.

As far as need vs want, that is a whole different discussion.

Finally, even really weak rifle cartridges are more powerful than most really powerful handgun cartridges.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?
Summit Arms Services
Scorch is offline  
Old January 6, 2021, 09:28 AM   #47
DT Guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 4, 2001
Posts: 888
When folks talk about how this or that caliber will kill an elk, moose or bear 'if placed through the heart', I think they're missing an important part of cartridge selection; we don't choose enough cartridge to cleanly kill with a *perfect* shot, we choose one likely to work with the inevitable IMPERFECT shots.

A .22LR through the eye socket would likely kill an elephant (it's killed countless domestic steer), but counting on an eye socket shot wouldn't be good hunting ethics. We need enough energy/penetration/damage to cleanly kill with slightly imperfect bullet placement-a margin of error, if you will-to ensure we're humanely taking animals with our sometimes imperfect shooting.

Larry
__________________
He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast.

Government, Anarchy and Chaos
DT Guy is online now  
Old January 6, 2021, 10:32 AM   #48
taylorce1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2005
Location: On the Santa Fe Trail
Posts: 7,443
Please don't confuse what Colorado requires for big game hunting as a standard of what it takes to kill any big game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pistoler0
Anyway, it is a common understanding that 1,000 ft-lbs of KE are a minimum for hunting elk.

I own a 45 ACP Pistol Caliber Carbine (Hi-Point 4595 don't laugh) with a 17.5" barrel. It is rated for +P ammo and it shoots Super fine. .........

I was very pleasantly surprised to find out that the carbine shooting factory 45 Super ammo does reach the required 1,000 ft-lbs for elk!!
I'm going to assume so correct me if I'm wrong, you're talking mainly of hunting in OUR state of Colorado? While you're not wrong about it being a requirement to kill elk in Colorado you are wrong in your figures from "BBTI". I think you've glossed over some very important info in the Colorado hunting regulations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Colorado 2020 Big Game Hunting Brochure pg 14
1. CENTERFIRE RIFLES

a. Must be a minimum of .24 caliber (6 mm).

b. Must have a minimum 16-inch barrel and be at least 26 inches long.

c. If semiautomatic, a maximum of six rounds are allowed in the magazine and
chamber combined.

d. Must use expanding bullets that weigh a minimum of 70 grains for deer, pronghorn and bear, 85 grains for elk and moose, and have an impact energy (at 100 yards) of 1,000 ft.-pounds as rated by manufacturer.
So if you plug the numbers by BBTI into a ballistics computer like JBM ballistics you'll find that if falls well short of the required ft-lbs of energy required to hunt with it as a rifle cartridge. While it might start out with over 1000 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle by the time it makes 100 yards it is in the 600 ft-lbs range. Making your Hi-Point not legal to hunt with by regulations.

.41 Magnum is kind of the standard for a cartridge that is legal by Colorado regulations to hunt with in a traditional handgun for all big game. It meets the 500 ft-lbs of energy required at 50 yards by manufacturer for a handgun, even the .45 Super is going to have a hard time of keeping 500 ft-lbs at 50 yards. The 10mm on the other hand would be legal in a handgun cartridge in Colorado as rated by manufacturer. However, in a PCC they'll fall short of what's required for a rifle every time. Even the .44 Mag falls short in a carbine rifle to meet what regulation requires.

Now I'm not telling you to break Colorado game laws. However, I believe that a PCC is perfectly capable of killing elk if used correctly. Common sense will tell you which ones are better than others, but if you choose to hunt with a PCC for elk go out of state.
__________________
NRA Life Member
taylorce1 is offline  
Old January 6, 2021, 02:22 PM   #49
Pistoler0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2019
Location: Conifer, CO
Posts: 288
Koda,

yes, the two rounds are interchangeable.
__________________
Life is simply an inter-temporal problem of constrained optimization.
Pistoler0 is offline  
Old January 6, 2021, 02:33 PM   #50
Pistoler0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2019
Location: Conifer, CO
Posts: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by taylorce1 View Post



So if you plug the numbers by BBTI into a ballistics computer like JBM ballistics you'll find that if falls well short of the required ft-lbs of energy required to hunt with it as a rifle cartridge. While it might start out with over 1000 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle by the time it makes 100 yards it is in the 600 ft-lbs range. Making your Hi-Point not legal to hunt with by regulations.

.41 Magnum is kind of the standard for a cartridge that is legal by Colorado regulations to hunt with in a traditional handgun for all big game. It meets the 500 ft-lbs of energy required at 50 yards by manufacturer for a handgun, even the .45 Super is going to have a hard time of keeping 500 ft-lbs at 50 yards.
Taylorc, hi, fellow coloradan

this post was more of a discussion exercise, not really advocating for using a Hi-Point for hunting. I thought it'd be an entertaining thought. I agree that it would be very marginal.

But what surprised me the most when I researched the graphs for the OP was that out of a carbine, the 45 Super out peforms 10mm!!
Per the OP I think that a PCC carbine in 45 Super might be adequate for deer, but I agree that it is too much of a stretch for elk.

As for its legality in CO and regarding the ballistics, I did put it into a ballistic calculator and when you take into account altitude yada yada... some 45 Super loadings do net the 1000 ft-lbs at 100 yds. Maybe I'll go do it and post it back for the sake of discussion.

But for pistol, for sure that 45 Super (depending on the load) meets the 500 ft-lbs at 50 yards CO requirements for big game. This one I have checked and re-checked.

Again, I am just saying this for the sake of discussion, and I'll bet you a beer that out of a carbine, 45 Super might eek out the numbers to be legal in CO for rifle hunting.

But no, I am not advocating for using a Hi-Point for hunting elk. Much less in my case, when I have a .308.
__________________
Life is simply an inter-temporal problem of constrained optimization.

Last edited by Pistoler0; January 6, 2021 at 02:45 PM.
Pistoler0 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2020 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.10643 seconds with 9 queries