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Old December 21, 2020, 07:10 AM   #1
Hummer70
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Hot brass can really be dangerous

Hot cases from handguns can be exciting but hot cases from a AR can really be life threatening.

Want to see how hot brass is just lay out a piece of polyethylene film on the ground and fire your semi automatic rifle in a manner that will deliver a hot case directly onto the film.

The AR platform initially ejected hot cases from 2:00 to 5:00. The early versions would cut small chunks of the right cheek of left hand shooters thus the plastic case deflectors were sometimes available.

In 1982 the M16A1E1 was tested at Aberdeen Proving Ground and adopted as the M16A2. The "bump" was added to upper receiver that changed the brass ejection to 2:00 to 4:00 and that helped us lefties but directed 1/3rd more hot cases directly towards shooters to the right.

http://looserounds.com/556timeline/556dw-1983/

The above covers the details.

How hot does brass get. Lay a piece of polyethylene film out on ground and fire your AR so the brass will impact the film. Have not tried it with pistol ammo but I have with 5.56.

The brass will burn right through the poly film.

If you look up the melting point of polyethelene you will find:

"The melting point for average, commercial, low-density polyethylene is typically 105 to 115 °C (221 to 239 °F). These temperatures vary strongly with the type of polyethylene, but the theoretical upper limit of melting of polyethylene is reported to be 144 to 146 °C (291 to 295 °F)."

Now look up the temperatures that cause 3rd Degree burns to skin"

Most adults will suffer third-degree burns if exposed to 150 degree water for two seconds. Burns will also occur with a six-second exposure to 140 degree water or with a thirty second exposure to 130 degree water. Even if the temperature is 120 degrees, a five minute exposure could result in third-degree burns.

Thus if you have a case hot enough to melt through poly film you are looking at 291F and your skin will have a third degree burn at 150F.

Put a pan in your oven, turn heat to 150F and in ten minutes see if you can lift the pan out without protection and what happens to your fingers.

The worst I got three hot cases hit my stomach when I wasn't wearing a shirt and all three cases burned in and stuck to my stomach and I had to peel them off and meat came with them. I had those three scars on my stomach for many years.

I was shooting prone rapid fire at Camp Perry and a hot case from a M14 hit a spotting scope poll on point to my left and the ejection angle was changed and it re directed the case up under my crotch. I had to change my shooting position quickly but fortunately the "little guy" wasn't hurt haha.

I know two agents that have burn scars on their necks from hot brass.

I saw this on a forum put on by a guy in Pensacola, Fla.

"We had a guy killed in my basic battalion in '75 when hot brass went down his collar and he shot the guy next to him in the head on the M16A1 zero range at Ft. Knox. He was shooting left handed and there were not enough clip on brass deflector's to go around.
I don't know about the A2, but I can verify the A1. I know, I was there and we were shut down because of it."




I have met two GIs that saw two different deaths occur on Army ranges from a hot case going down the neck of a shooter next to them and the shooters reacted to getting third degree burns and lost muzzle awareness and shot the troop on the next firing point.

One guy said the guys on line were shooting prone position, one got hot brass down neck and was wreathing around screaming and pulled the trigger killing the shooter on the adjacent firing point.

The other guy was shooting standing, a cease fire was ordered and a Di ran up and grabbed him and pulled him down the line and there was a troop on the ground shot and DI handed him a wound bandage and told him to apply it. (He was slated for MEDIC school when he got out of basic.

On the next firing point a guy was screaming and crying and between sobs found out and the shooter and the shootee had grown up next to each other from infants and they were best buddies. The shooter had a hot brass burn on his neck. The shootee was put in a body bag and the shooter in a ambulance.

The shooter was discharged two days later and sent home.

I have a retired Lt Col friend who was at Ft. Jackson getting a physical as 2nd Lt and nurse runs in and tells Doc a gunshot wound was inbound from range. Doc asked nurse about it and she told him a guy next to the shootee got hot brass down his neck and in the reaction shot the guy next to him.

Bottom line is hot brass can cause deaths and 3rd degree burns.

I changed the ejection angles on my ARs by adding epoxy putty to bump making the front side at right angle to bore center line. They are not pretty but pile brass neatly between 1:00 and 2:00.

Just recently I got a pack of Havoc Tactical Deflector Brakes. A kit has them and you degrease the front side of the bump with a wipe supplied then peel off a little piece of plastic and the deflector is glued to the bump. They were made for AR15s but I put on on a PA10 in 308 and it works well for that as well.
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Last edited by Hummer70; December 21, 2020 at 08:23 AM.
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Old December 21, 2020, 09:58 AM   #2
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ouch!

Way back in the old days, I remember varmint hunting with friends using 22 semi auto rifles that invariably deposited a painfully hot shell down the back of my neck.
It did teach me to spread out a bit when the guy/gal next to you was shooting a semi.
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Old December 21, 2020, 12:18 PM   #3
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Every time I see a young lady dancing around on youtube because a piece of hot brass just went down her top, I laugh. I know its mean, it hurts a lot, but I just can't help it. I laugh.
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Old December 21, 2020, 01:14 PM   #4
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There's an old log structure in our city park that used to have an indoor .22 range, an archery range and a horseshoe pit within it. It got used a lot in the old days (up to the late 80s, anyway). One of my old working cohorts told me they'd have .22 target matches in the building, and it was great fun to eject spent .22 cases at the right angle for it to go down the back of the neck of the shooter next to you, especially about the time the shooter was about to break the shot.

I also had a buddy who was an excellent shot, along with being a good friend with a great sense of humor (if sometimes Impish...). We shot a lot of muzzleloader competition together back in the 80s. If he saw that I had a better score going on a target than he did, he always threw his spent percussion caps at me, yeah, trying to get it to go down the back of my neck. That didn't happen often, but when it did, I always took it as a pretty good compliment. If another shooting bud noticed that going on, he'd say, "I see Ol' Fuzz is throwin' caps at ya; must be doin' all right today." Again, didn't happen often, but when it did, it was a grand thing.
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Old December 21, 2020, 02:08 PM   #5
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Bottom line is hot brass can cause deaths and 3rd degree burns.
While hot brass is the initiator, it is the loss of muzzle control, and a discharge that results in death. Lots of people have been burned by hot brass and did not lose control or discharge their weapon.

To add to your list of deaths, there was one in 75 at Ft Leonard Wood. M16A1, kid was a lefty, did not have his uniform buttoned all the way up, and no brass deflector was available. He was shooting from one of the range "foxholes" a wood walled rectangular pit. Brass went down his shirt front, and he dropped the rifle, which landed butt down between his feet and discharged, striking him under the chin, killing him.

I'd also point out that how hot the brass comes out seems to be different with different cartridges, and the 5.56mm is one of the hottest. I think it has something to do with the intensity of the pressure, the amount of powder burned and the type of action it is fired in. Brass from an AR seems hotter than from my Mini-14. Not much but it seems so. Brass from my H&K 91 was definately noticeably hotter than from my M1A, but I put that down to the gas assisted ejection of the gun.

Pistol rounds don't seem to get nearly that hot. You can catch .45acp brass in your hand, its HOT, but doesn't burn (or at least doesn't burn me). Same for .22s. Though either will leave a mark on tender skin.
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Old December 22, 2020, 08:55 AM   #6
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I have started using cloth painters tarps at the range as hot brass absolutely destroys plastic tarps. That's hot!
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Old December 22, 2020, 01:54 PM   #7
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Spouse had a .380 casing from her Browning drop down her ample cleavage, slide down her stomach, and then slip into her skivvies as she struggled to take it out. Rather funny little scene if you ask me.
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Old December 22, 2020, 03:09 PM   #8
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I agree with 44 AMP . Getting a brass burn is one thing .Losing muzzle control is something else. Especially if you kill someone.
These people are training for combat. Painful distraction comes with he territory.

Also part of basic training is the tear gas training. It requires being focused and functional while experiencing pain.

I suppose the surprise might have something to do with it. Maybe a part of pre-range instruction could be to mentally prepare folks for catching a piece of hot brass.Tell them to expect it,and tell them the requirement is to maintain muzzle discipline.
Self loading rifles eject hot brass. Thats a fact. On a firing line with other shooters,you will get hit with brass. Its NO EXCUSE for becoming a hysterical snowflake. You have a deadly weapon in your hands. Its loaded,and its a life and death matter that you maintain composure. If a hornet stings you,or 5 hornets, clear the weapon,bench it muzzle downrange,then deal with the hornets.
I recall High School shop class,was filling a wrapped wire handle with braze metal. A gob of molten braze metal fell off,went through the fire brick,and into my shoe.Maybe 200 grains and liquid. It was cooking its way through my skin. I still properly shut down the oxy-acetylene torch in my hand before I tended my foot.

Its not the gun,or the hot brass that are dangerous.
Its THE SHOOTER who will lose track,for any reason,that they must control the deadly weapon in their hand. That SHOOTER is the danger.

Last edited by HiBC; December 23, 2020 at 08:15 PM.
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Old December 22, 2020, 03:20 PM   #9
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I had a hot 10 mm shell go down the back of my shirt last Saturday. I had a hot .22 LR go down the front of my shirt two weeks prior. I am just wearing a collared polo shirt and leave the top button open. Immediate reaction is to get my finger off the trigger and keep the gun pointed down range. At the same time, I leaned in the direction of where the shell went down to get it off of my skin. My weak hand grabbed the shell casing through my shirt and I pulled my shirt out so I could drop the shell.

I know it hurts and I did get burns, but trigger discipline and muzzle discipline is critical to keeping those around me safe.
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Old December 22, 2020, 03:21 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoo View Post
Spouse had a .380 casing from her Browning drop down her ample cleavage, slide down her stomach, and then slip into her skivvies as she struggled to take it out. Rather funny little scene if you ask me.
...and you didn't dare laugh....

Had a similar experience with my wife. After she retrieved the brass (and noticing she had a burned spot on ......, she hit me thinking I some aimed the errant case.

After that, started wondering, then testing how 'accurate' you could be with ejecting shells. Quickly I realized it would probably be easier to shoot a 2" group at 100 yards with a pistol than get 2 ejected shells in a row to land in a 12 ounce plastic cup.
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Old December 22, 2020, 03:26 PM   #11
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I took my friend and his wife shooting. I warned her to not wear anything revealing, but she showed up wearing something that exposed some cleavage. Sure enough, a hot shell bounced off the partition and landed in her cleavage. I was standing next to her and had to grab her arm and keep the gun pointed down range. I know it is hard to think of anything other than getting that hot shell off your skin, but safety first!
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Old December 22, 2020, 06:24 PM   #12
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...and you didn't dare laugh....

Had a similar experience with my wife. After she retrieved the brass (and noticing she had a burned spot on ......, she hit me thinking I some aimed the errant case.

After that, started wondering, then testing how 'accurate' you could be with ejecting shells. Quickly I realized it would probably be easier to shoot a 2" group at 100 yards with a pistol than get 2 ejected shells in a row to land in a 12 ounce plastic cup.
Hey, I'm no dummy although I realize others would argue that point. I didn't dare even grin. Instead I tried only to look concerned. I was the only guy there and I believe the half dozen ladies present were laughing their arses off.
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Old December 22, 2020, 06:47 PM   #13
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I still have a scar from where a piece of 22lr brass from a semi auto landed in the crook of my elbow during timed event. Left it there. Blistered and scarred.
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Old December 22, 2020, 07:13 PM   #14
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In fact, now and then I remind my spouse how those terrible ladies laughed at her misfortune.

Whut?
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Old December 23, 2020, 07:04 AM   #15
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I agree with 44 AMP . Getting a brass burn is one thing .Losing muzzle control is something else. Especially if you kill someone.
These people are training for combat. Painful distraction comes with he territory.
This is exactly how I feel about it. I’ve had more than one piece of brass land conveniently between my neck and the collar of my IBA (flak, whatever you wanna call it). When they go down your vest there’s absolutely nothing you can do other than fight through it.

Yeah I’ve had a few burn marks from it, but nothing that ever scarred permanently.
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Old December 23, 2020, 11:18 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
While hot brass is the initiator, it is the loss of muzzle control, and a discharge that results in death. Lots of people have been burned by hot brass and did not lose control or discharge their weapon.

To add to your list of deaths, there was one in 75 at Ft Leonard Wood. M16A1, kid was a lefty, did not have his uniform buttoned all the way up, and no brass deflector was available. He was shooting from one of the range "foxholes" a wood walled rectangular pit. Brass went down his shirt front, and he dropped the rifle, which landed butt down between his feet and discharged, striking him under the chin, killing him.

I'd also point out that how hot the brass comes out seems to be different with different cartridges, and the 5.56mm is one of the hottest. I think it has something to do with the intensity of the pressure, the amount of powder burned and the type of action it is fired in. Brass from an AR seems hotter than from my Mini-14. Not much but it seems so. Brass from my H&K 91 was definately noticeably hotter than from my M1A, but I put that down to the gas assisted ejection of the gun.

Pistol rounds don't seem to get nearly that hot. You can catch .45acp brass in your hand, its HOT, but doesn't burn (or at least doesn't burn me). Same for .22s. Though either will leave a mark on tender skin.
I don't own an AR or M1A but ejected brass from my Garands seems hotter than from my PTR91 (HK91 Clone)

The roller lock PTR ejects forward about 10 feet and at one o'clock, so there is little danger of contact.

It's uncanny that an ejected case from only one shot from my Garand is too hot to touch, without tossing it up and down a while.
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Old December 23, 2020, 07:24 PM   #17
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Hummer- You know you can trim your AR's ejector spring and to a degree tune where your brass flies without dabbing all kinds of epoxies, glues, and goos on your rifle.

I learned to weld in high school and spent about 5 years between Cop jobs putting beans on the table plying the craft. Yeah, hot is hot, but a guy can learn to grit his/her teeth through it. Funny story about brass burns- this past year, I ended up with a brass burn on my neck from department ATR training. I guess it was a pretty good one, because my wife refused to believe it wasn't a hickey until she got to peek at it real close under good light.
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Old December 23, 2020, 11:30 PM   #18
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Yes, it's been 35 years but seems like yesterday when a 45ACP shell wedged itself between the frame of my shooting glasses and my cheek !
Never experienced anybody the problems mentioned during my military experiences.
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Old December 24, 2020, 02:15 PM   #19
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Yes, it's been 35 years but seems like yesterday when a 45ACP shell wedged itself between the frame of my shooting glasses and my cheek !
I've had that experience as well! I'll be very happy if I never have it again.
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Old December 27, 2020, 10:25 AM   #20
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Yes, I've had that with a .380. Not nice.
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Old December 29, 2020, 12:31 PM   #21
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When I was issued a dozen 7.62 Garand match rifles for a major USN command team, the marksmanship unit gave me some ammo and a nipper. Each rifle's ejector spring had a few turns cut off so cases were ejected at 1 to 2 o'clock instead of over the rear sight.
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