Primers primers and primers

Dano4734 · October 5, 2018, 03:26 PM

Read somewhere they make a difference in your load. Took my 45-70 with the nice load to the range. I ran out of cci so switched to Winchester. Just like the cci it cuts the center out of the bullseye. So I made five rounds of the reloaded buffalo bore with small rifle primers. Cut the center out of the bullseye. At least in my gun nothing changes is that true in other calibers. Sorry for all the dumb questions I ask. I was surprised as I would think that something would be different. Nope. Oh and buffalo bore brass uses small rifle primers for whatever reason.. probably only liability issues I guess

Chainsaw. · October 5, 2018, 03:29 PM

Primers CAN make a difference. Doesn’t mean they will.

Dano4734 · October 5, 2018, 03:30 PM

Do you think it’s the size of the case or charge?

Bayou · October 5, 2018, 04:03 PM

No matter how many opinions you hear, your own personal experiences are determinative of your inquiry. There is no such thing as a "universally correct" answer...

Bayou

Dano4734 · October 5, 2018, 04:21 PM

Thank you got it

Bayou · October 5, 2018, 05:13 PM

Good luck, Dano!

All the Best -

Bayou

RC20 · October 5, 2018, 05:43 PM

You are shooting a big slow bullet in a big case (straight)

Primers can affect a trajectory as they can be several thousand PSI between them on firing from a modern bottleneck case.

I doubt anyone has studied 45-70 and in your case you are loading very low (not a problem but for a bottleneck at least it can get into a too low issue and some odd affects)

So, as I have told them at work more than once, we spend a lot of time (and in our case money) and still not get a straight answer or we can just accept it, do what we know will fix it and go on with life.

I have had two occasions where a 10 grand plus engineering job was done and they still did not give us an answer. There was a way to go around the one, the other has had all the "fixes" done to it and it has to come apart to see if it stopped it or its still a mystery.

Far more often I have just done what it took to fix it or we got equipment in that was a sure fired solution.

You can decide what level you want to put into it.

As you probably have seen, there are facts and then there are opinions and often no two shooters have the same opinion.

If research has been done in all areas its proprietary and never been revealed. Mostly I think they put money into it if its a production problem and don't care if its not.

hounddawg · October 5, 2018, 05:49 PM

Guess which primer I use with this load

Dano4734 · October 5, 2018, 06:27 PM

Wow amazing

LE-28 · October 5, 2018, 06:41 PM

I'd take all four of those groups at 100yds with a 45-70 and brag about it.

The GM match though, WOW!

hounddawg · October 5, 2018, 07:03 PM

the wind was being a pain that day. The groups vertical height shows more about the primers, I'll take the hit on the flyers because of bad wind calls. BTW the short range BR boys would be putting them in one hole.

The point I wanted to make was that yes primers can tune a load in. It's the final step in the process. About 50 - 100 rounds get sacrificed to get to primer testing

@ LE-28

apples and oranges. I doubt I could do a 6 inch group with a 45-70 on my best day. If you shot that .260 you would think you were shooting a .22 rimfire compared to your rifle. The big bores need a lot of recoil control and the difference in ballistics is huge. I would have to do a lot of research just to load one. But I would bet that with that big case the right primer could make a difference. I have no clue how much powder you use even

Dano4734 · October 5, 2018, 09:12 PM

Mine are grouping like that also. However I have a burris scope and on a bench. Wish I was as accurate off hand.The 45-70 has been a hard gun to dial in. I know it was my inexperience on the reloading front as I thought mid to upper would be better. Now I know better. I actually stumbled on to the very accurate target load for my gun trying just to plink . I suspect the much reduced load is why I didn’t have much of any change in accuracy. Your example shows how the change really is on a better load thank you

**Unclenick** · October 5, 2018, 09:21 PM

The 45-70 has a relatively high expansion ratio. That and a heavy, slow bullet can do a lot to cover up small combustion irregularities. A bottleneck case with a fast moving bullet is flat out harder to get consistent ignition with.

Dano4734 · October 5, 2018, 09:32 PM

Thank you unclenick

Dano4734 · October 5, 2018, 10:45 PM

You guys have really given me some good times. Since I am still quite new to reloading I have had a ball trying different power, different loads, different bullets. It really has been fun to play at the range and try different things. I have lots of time now that I retired and I am having a lot of fun shooting again. Thank you for putting up with my silly questions

**Shane Tuttle** · October 5, 2018, 11:15 PM

No silly questions if you're asking in earnest.

Please keep us posted on your longterm findings.

kmw1954 · October 5, 2018, 11:16 PM

I was following a thread over at another forum were a member was doing some testing with pistol primers using the same load with just changing the primers and then firing them thru a chronograph.

Was a simple test and he seemed to be trying to control everything to a consistent level and what he found was that primers didn't make a large difference in speed from one to the other. Only that the S&B were consistently the slowest FPS and the Federal were the fastest but even that was less than 100fps.

As I recalled he tested CCI, Federal, S&B and Winchester. It might have been inconclusive but it was interesting reading.

hounddawg · October 6, 2018, 08:09 AM

Quote:

The 45-70 has a relatively high expansion ratio. That and a heavy, slow bullet can do a lot to cover up small combustion irregularities. A bottleneck case with a fast moving bullet is flat out harder to get consistent ignition with.

.223 and .204 sure give be the hardest time finding consistent velocities for and that is a fact. I can see where the larger case would be more forgiving

**Unclenick** · October 6, 2018, 08:17 AM

Charles Petty had a test of small rifle primers in 223 in a 2006 issue of Handloader with the same load of Reloader 10X for all with a 55-grain V-max bullet and got almost a 5% velocity difference going from Federal 205 to someone else's magnum primer, IIRC. 3150 fps to 3300 fps, I think. This was in a 24" barrel bolt gun. So primers can make a difference. It just depends on how all the other factors line up.

Dano4734 · October 6, 2018, 12:16 PM

Did a very unscientific test this morning with some stiff 45-70 loads. The difference was amazing. As always unclenick is so right. Winchester primers seemed much hotter and the difference was two inches in groups with the Winchester higher than the cci and a little more left. Apparently for me low charge was not much of a change if any. Mid to upper was quite a different story. Thank you so much

oley55 · October 6, 2018, 08:58 PM

Quote:

You guys have really given me some good times. Since I am still quite new to reloading I have had a ball trying different power, different loads, different bullets. It really has been fun to play at the range and try different things. I have lots of time now that I retired and I am having a lot of fun shooting again. Thank you for putting up with my silly questions

^^^^^^
prezactly what he said.

RC20 · October 7, 2018, 03:20 PM

My take on questions is as long as the person is doing their best, they arn't silly.

They may seem so to someone who has forgotten they too started low and worked up. I havn't.

I worked with a guy on switch gear and diesels who was afraid of 480 Volts, smoked like a chimney he was so nervous , made an extremely serious mistakes that could have cost us an engine. We thought he was worth helping along.

Years latter I had interaction with him and he portended he was self made, golden, perfect. Hmm, dude you screwed up that seal on the injection pump and I was the one that caught it was dumping even more diesel into the crank. His arrogance was astonishing..

I was lucky. My dad reloaded and I had an idea of what it was about. My step dad got us into it latter on and he taught us good basics. So when I got deeper into it, I had a solid base.

And that also gets into what combo of reading and seeing it makes sense to whatever mix is in your brain.

Grey_Lion · October 7, 2018, 09:12 PM

I seem to remember a post indicating serious problems when someone accidentally used pistol primers in rifle rounds and had the powder charge bulge out the pistol primer and had some rounds that the powder charge actually burned through the primer and damaged the firearm.

My reads on primers otherwise tend to lean more in ensuring the primer is of a strength to fully ignite your powder charge. An under powered primer can cause unignited powder to flash in other areas such as in the bore during brass extraction. There was a recent pic of a 223 shell that was dented and pitted because of this condition. That was on the reloading blog on this board coming out of Hawaii.

October 5, 2018, 03:26 PM	#1
Dano4734 Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2014 Posts: 730	Primers primers and primers Read somewhere they make a difference in your load. Took my 45-70 with the nice load to the range. I ran out of cci so switched to Winchester. Just like the cci it cuts the center out of the bullseye. So I made five rounds of the reloaded buffalo bore with small rifle primers. Cut the center out of the bullseye. At least in my gun nothing changes is that true in other calibers. Sorry for all the dumb questions I ask. I was surprised as I would think that something would be different. Nope. Oh and buffalo bore brass uses small rifle primers for whatever reason.. probably only liability issues I guess

October 5, 2018, 03:29 PM	#2
Chainsaw. Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2015 Location: Issaquah WA. Its a dry rain. Posts: 1,774	Primers CAN make a difference. Doesn’t mean they will. __________________ Just shoot the damn thing.

October 5, 2018, 04:03 PM	#4
Bayou Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2016 Location: SE Louisiana Posts: 300	No matter how many opinions you hear, your own personal experiences are determinative of your inquiry. There is no such thing as a "universally correct" answer... Bayou __________________ Bayou NRA Life Member "Keep Calm and Reload"

October 5, 2018, 05:13 PM	#6
Bayou Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2016 Location: SE Louisiana Posts: 300	Good luck, Dano! All the Best - Bayou __________________ Bayou NRA Life Member "Keep Calm and Reload"

October 5, 2018, 05:43 PM	#7
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	You are shooting a big slow bullet in a big case (straight) Primers can affect a trajectory as they can be several thousand PSI between them on firing from a modern bottleneck case. I doubt anyone has studied 45-70 and in your case you are loading very low (not a problem but for a bottleneck at least it can get into a too low issue and some odd affects) So, as I have told them at work more than once, we spend a lot of time (and in our case money) and still not get a straight answer or we can just accept it, do what we know will fix it and go on with life. I have had two occasions where a 10 grand plus engineering job was done and they still did not give us an answer. There was a way to go around the one, the other has had all the "fixes" done to it and it has to come apart to see if it stopped it or its still a mystery. Far more often I have just done what it took to fix it or we got equipment in that was a sure fired solution. You can decide what level you want to put into it. As you probably have seen, there are facts and then there are opinions and often no two shooters have the same opinion. If research has been done in all areas its proprietary and never been revealed. Mostly I think they put money into it if its a production problem and don't care if its not. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

October 5, 2018, 03:30 PM	#3
Dano4734 Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2014 Posts: 730	Do you think it’s the size of the case or charge?

October 5, 2018, 04:21 PM	#5
Dano4734 Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2014 Posts: 730	Thank you got it

October 5, 2018, 05:49 PM	#8
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	Guess which primer I use with this load __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

October 5, 2018, 06:27 PM	#9
Dano4734 Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2014 Posts: 730	Wow amazing

October 5, 2018, 06:41 PM	#10
LE-28 Senior Member Join Date: September 24, 2012 Location: North Carolina Posts: 759	I'd take all four of those groups at 100yds with a 45-70 and brag about it. The GM match though, WOW!

October 5, 2018, 07:03 PM	#11
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	the wind was being a pain that day. The groups vertical height shows more about the primers, I'll take the hit on the flyers because of bad wind calls. BTW the short range BR boys would be putting them in one hole. The point I wanted to make was that yes primers can tune a load in. It's the final step in the process. About 50 - 100 rounds get sacrificed to get to primer testing @ LE-28 apples and oranges. I doubt I could do a 6 inch group with a 45-70 on my best day. If you shot that .260 you would think you were shooting a .22 rimfire compared to your rifle. The big bores need a lot of recoil control and the difference in ballistics is huge. I would have to do a lot of research just to load one. But I would bet that with that big case the right primer could make a difference. I have no clue how much powder you use even __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek Last edited by hounddawg; October 5, 2018 at 07:14 PM.

October 5, 2018, 09:12 PM	#12
Dano4734 Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2014 Posts: 730	Mine are grouping like that also. However I have a burris scope and on a bench. Wish I was as accurate off hand.The 45-70 has been a hard gun to dial in. I know it was my inexperience on the reloading front as I thought mid to upper would be better. Now I know better. I actually stumbled on to the very accurate target load for my gun trying just to plink . I suspect the much reduced load is why I didn’t have much of any change in accuracy. Your example shows how the change really is on a better load thank you

October 5, 2018, 09:21 PM	#13
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	The 45-70 has a relatively high expansion ratio. That and a heavy, slow bullet can do a lot to cover up small combustion irregularities. A bottleneck case with a fast moving bullet is flat out harder to get consistent ignition with. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 5, 2018, 09:32 PM	#14
Dano4734 Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2014 Posts: 730	Thank you unclenick

October 5, 2018, 10:45 PM	#15
Dano4734 Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2014 Posts: 730	You guys have really given me some good times. Since I am still quite new to reloading I have had a ball trying different power, different loads, different bullets. It really has been fun to play at the range and try different things. I have lots of time now that I retired and I am having a lot of fun shooting again. Thank you for putting up with my silly questions

October 5, 2018, 11:15 PM	#16
Shane Tuttle Staff Join Date: November 28, 2005 Location: Montana Posts: 9,443	No silly questions if you're asking in earnest. Please keep us posted on your longterm findings. __________________ If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language. Posting and YOU: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting

October 5, 2018, 11:16 PM	#17
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	I was following a thread over at another forum were a member was doing some testing with pistol primers using the same load with just changing the primers and then firing them thru a chronograph. Was a simple test and he seemed to be trying to control everything to a consistent level and what he found was that primers didn't make a large difference in speed from one to the other. Only that the S&B were consistently the slowest FPS and the Federal were the fastest but even that was less than 100fps. As I recalled he tested CCI, Federal, S&B and Winchester. It might have been inconclusive but it was interesting reading.

October 6, 2018, 08:17 AM	#19
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Charles Petty had a test of small rifle primers in 223 in a 2006 issue of Handloader with the same load of Reloader 10X for all with a 55-grain V-max bullet and got almost a 5% velocity difference going from Federal 205 to someone else's magnum primer, IIRC. 3150 fps to 3300 fps, I think. This was in a 24" barrel bolt gun. So primers can make a difference. It just depends on how all the other factors line up. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 6, 2018, 12:16 PM	#20
Dano4734 Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2014 Posts: 730	Did a very unscientific test this morning with some stiff 45-70 loads. The difference was amazing. As always unclenick is so right. Winchester primers seemed much hotter and the difference was two inches in groups with the Winchester higher than the cci and a little more left. Apparently for me low charge was not much of a change if any. Mid to upper was quite a different story. Thank you so much

October 7, 2018, 03:20 PM	#22
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	My take on questions is as long as the person is doing their best, they arn't silly. They may seem so to someone who has forgotten they too started low and worked up. I havn't. I worked with a guy on switch gear and diesels who was afraid of 480 Volts, smoked like a chimney he was so nervous , made an extremely serious mistakes that could have cost us an engine. We thought he was worth helping along. Years latter I had interaction with him and he portended he was self made, golden, perfect. Hmm, dude you screwed up that seal on the injection pump and I was the one that caught it was dumping even more diesel into the crank. His arrogance was astonishing.. I was lucky. My dad reloaded and I had an idea of what it was about. My step dad got us into it latter on and he taught us good basics. So when I got deeper into it, I had a solid base. And that also gets into what combo of reading and seeing it makes sense to whatever mix is in your brain. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

October 7, 2018, 09:12 PM	#23
Grey_Lion Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2018 Location: Baton Rouge - Louisiana Posts: 406	I seem to remember a post indicating serious problems when someone accidentally used pistol primers in rifle rounds and had the powder charge bulge out the pistol primer and had some rounds that the powder charge actually burned through the primer and damaged the firearm. My reads on primers otherwise tend to lean more in ensuring the primer is of a strength to fully ignite your powder charge. An under powered primer can cause unignited powder to flash in other areas such as in the bore during brass extraction. There was a recent pic of a 223 shell that was dented and pitted because of this condition. That was on the reloading blog on this board coming out of Hawaii.