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Old September 30, 2018, 12:39 PM   #1
Aguila Blanca
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Dummy training rifles

I'm an NRA certified instructor in Basic Pistol, but not rifle. To avoid having real guns in my classes, I have obtained a motley assortment of airsoft replicas and blank-firing replicas in order to have classroom props to show the difference between single action and double action, and how different types of guns load and eject. The only real gun in my mix is an old .32 S&W Short top-break revolver that's broken. It's included just to have an example of a top-break, and I'm going to drive a lead slug into the barrel and cut off the firing pin just to make it fully inert.

Why do I do this? Because I have a nagging concern that some idiot is going to show up for a class with a cartridge in his pocket, and at some point not be able to resist seeing if it will fit in the gun being used (and passed around) in the classroom.

A have a friend who is an NRA training counselor, and he's pushing me to get certified for rifle as well as handgun. So I started looking around for dummy guns that could be used for a rifle class, and there isn't much out there. I found replicas of the Winchester 1866 and 1873 lever action, and the Thompson sub-machine gun. That's all.

Sarco, the big guns and parts vendor that has multi-page ads in every issue if Firearms News, has some de-activated Springfield 1903 parade rifles. Their description says they were deactivated by "a small weld spot on the cutoff." I contacted Sarco to ask if these de-activated guns would hand cycle dummy ammunition, and the answer was no. Could the weld be ground down enough to allow chambering dummy rounds without making the gun functional again?

Double question: First part, can someone explain how these are de-activated, and how this "small weld spot on the cutoff" prevents chambering and extracting dummy rounds? The purpose of a training replica, obviously, is to demonstrate how the gun works. If it can't chamber a round, it's of less value for good training.

Second part: does anyone know of any sources for reasonably priced but reasonably good replicas of bolt action and/or semi-auto rifles? If anyone is familiar with the Daisy/Winchester M14, for example, how would that work as a classroom prop?

Thanks.
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Old September 30, 2018, 04:02 PM   #2
big al hunter
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My hunter education team uses inert guns made for training. They are all Mossberg. Washington Dept of Fish and Wildlife purchased and distributed them. I would think you could contact Mossberg and get a price
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Old September 30, 2018, 05:48 PM   #3
Aguila Blanca
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Originally Posted by big al hunter
My hunter education team uses inert guns made for training. They are all Mossberg. Washington Dept of Fish and Wildlife purchased and distributed them. I would think you could contact Mossberg and get a price
Yikes!

http://www.mossberg.com/product/5-gun-training-set/

That's exactly what I'm looking for -- except that they want $1,750 for the set of five long guns. Maybe when I hit the lottery ... For just me, teaching a few people per year, there's no way I could justify spending that kind of money on show-and-tell props.

But that is exactly what I'm looking for, and thanks for the suggestion. (Although the set includes three shotguns, and no semi-auto rifle. I suppose that's because most states don't allow semi-auto for hunting, but I'm not going to be teaching hunters' safety, I'm looking at the NRA basic rifle course. So I would want/need a semi-auto of some kind.
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Old September 30, 2018, 08:12 PM   #4
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What stops you from hitting up pawn shops or others and just buying cheap ugly guns and deactivating them.
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Old September 30, 2018, 09:45 PM   #5
Aguila Blanca
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What stops you from hitting up pawn shops or others and just buying cheap ugly guns and deactivating them.
In my state, ALL firearms purchases must be reported to the state and local police. I don't choose to put anything on my list that's going to be turned into a non-gun as soon as I can get it into the workshop. I prefer to start out with things that aren't guns and don't have to be reported when I buy them.
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Old September 30, 2018, 09:56 PM   #6
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So how about hitting up those gov't agencies for some surplus/extra ones they can deactivate and then loan out to folks like you?
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Old October 1, 2018, 03:21 AM   #7
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Search Ebay. There's a couple of Denix SMLE and M16 replicas for $200-250, and a toy bolt action with ejecting shells for $32. No idea on quality.
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Old October 1, 2018, 06:00 AM   #8
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"De-watted" is another term used for inactivated firearms that you might plug into searches. Not totally sure, but it seems I've seen that term mostly used with British empire weaponry.

Sorry if I can't be more helpful, but good luck. Salute for keeping em and teaching em to be safe.
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Old October 1, 2018, 08:03 AM   #9
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What about high school JROTC? They might have something you can borrow.
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Old October 1, 2018, 12:01 PM   #10
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"...teaching a few people per year..." You'd be better to borrow or use your own real firearms with the firing pins removed. Wouldn't be cost effective to buy anything.
Airsoft makes toys. They don't operate like real firearms. Blank firing guns have killed people. Brandon Lee, for example. They can be as dangerous as a real firearm in the wrong hands.
Those Mossberg sets have no semi-auto rifle because Mossberg doesn't make one.
The Daisy M-14 air rifle apparently in not available according to Amazon. Isn't a replica at 4 pounds either.
"...De-watted..." DEWAT means Deactivated War Trophy. Nothing to do with Commonwealth anything. The rules vary from place to place, but a lot of 'em are entirely welded shut with no moving parts at all. Basically oddly shaped, expensive, paperweights.
Parade rifles, AKA Drill Purpose rifles, are usually the same as a DEWAT. Completely non-working. Some of 'em have the chambers and barrels filled or have steel rods welded in 'em to prevent tragedies.
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Old October 1, 2018, 11:11 PM   #11
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Quote:
"De-watted" is another term used for inactivated firearms that you might plug into searches. Not totally sure, but it seems I've seen that term mostly used with British empire weaponry.
DEWAT (sometimes written as De-wat) is short for Deactivated War Trophy.

its what was done to captured machineguns to allow the guys who captured them to bring them home, between 1934 (when Federal law made unregistered functional machine guns illegal, and 1986 when another Federal law ended the ability of citizens to register them.

it's now a general use term for a mechanically deactivated firearm that cannot be returned to working order without extensive (or impossible) repair. Welding shut, torch cut recievers, etc. Just plugging the barrel doesn't pass muster, legally.

I do wonder, while I understand your concern about some jerk putting a round in a training gun, why not just remove (or shorten) the firing pins of regular guns??

Its rather doubtful that the jerk you worry about would have both ammo that fits one of you guns, AND the firing pin for it. And even if he did, I don't see how SOMEONE wouldn't notice him installing a new firing pin. Not something easily hidden while passing them around the class.

I'm also a little in the dark about your concern about having them on "your list" with the state govt. Why would that matter. You do own other guns, ones that work, right? SO, the state already knows you have guns. What's the point of worry??
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Old October 2, 2018, 07:37 PM   #12
4V50 Gary
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I remember one of the Russian arsenals made AK lookalike airguns. The barrel was plugged and the chamber ported to ensure it couldn't fire a real bullet. The weight and heft was like a real AKM.

I would seriously consider airsoft.
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