Just picked up a P08 Luger with LOW serial #300...

[Chris_B]

Chris, I think the problem was you picked the wrong Luftwaffe ace.

Next time I'll cite Walter Nowotny!

[gbclarkson]

I have been enjoying this thread and had nothing of value to offer so I googled "GW Smith Nazi party" and found a book excerpt referencing a Corporal GW Smith participating in the European Theater in 1938. He was a British anti-aircraft gunner, though (if my cursory glance is correct).

A more established link between the person above and the engraving will take someone with more time, training and care than I (OP?)

Curious, what is engraved above the safety lever?

The book is Sons of Soldiers by Tomlin Simon if anyone cares more than I.

https://books.google.com/books?id=G0...0party&f=false

[Skans]

My opinion (and that's all it is, just an opinion) - that is not a Nazi presentation gun. It has way too much wear on it. The grips are not expertly fitted. The Eagle and the Swastika doesn't look right. The name is English/American. I believe the engraver's name is under the safety switch, but I can't make it out.

My guess is that some American took a well worn WWI era Luger, had the grips made and had it engraved for whatever reason. He had his name engraved into the gun, not for historic reasons, but because he simply wanted his name on it. You can't call it a "fake" when it has an English name engraved on it - that makes no sense. At the time this was done, the Luger probably wasn't worth much and the person who did this was likely into Nazi stuff.

I equate this to someone in 1975 finding an old, worn '57 Colt Python in a pawn shop for $75, who always wanted an engraved Python with his name on it. Sends it to an engraver and perhaps he's handy enough to make some "custom" ivory grips for it.

[Chris_B]

Could be. But even in the 1960s, Lugers were commanding an appreciable premium over say, P.38s: 35 bucks vs. 30. In today's money, big deal. In 1963's money? A difference many people stopped and thought twice about.

[Jim Watson]

In the absence of a high appraisal (backed up by a real cash offer) and/or good provenance identifying Herr Smith, I would have some fun with it. What is German for BBQ?.

At minimum, get the rust off of it. The takedown catch checkering and safety serrations are the most obvious places, there might be others. Kroil and brush might be all you could do without affecting the appearance.

Consider refinishing, Ted charges $475 for rust blue plus $125 for straw colors.
Can Herr Smith's name be erased and mine added?
Can the Nazi crap be erased without distorting the shape of the grips?

[dgludwig]

What is German for BBQ?.

Das Frankfurter ach Krispy.

[Jim Watson]

I looked it up, it is der Grill or just das Barbecue, or even die Grillparty.

[Chris_B]

I think I saw Die Grillparty at a drive-in in the early '80s. Frankie Avalon flick.

[44 AMP]

I thought it was Die Grillparty Die! one of those beachparty monster flicks??

[Chris_B]

That was the George Romero re-make.

[Carmady]

nevermind

[roaddog.]

Thanks for ALL the feedback and discussions!!!

Hey guys, sorry for posting and dropping out of sight. Got contracts on three properties and have been SWAMPED.

Yep, I saw the grips before I bid on it. The limited, undocumented "story" I got from the grandson is: It was brought back after WWII by grandpa. He said GP was very proud of the gun and GS thought it was already engraved in the 40's when he traded rations for it. GP is not a "Smith" and there's no way to track the gun from production to the 40's. The ivory grips were obtained in the 50's while in Korea serving in Occupational Forces. The gun was one of many that lived in a foot locker (Also purchased a Nazi Sauer & Sohn 38H and Nazi Mauser HSc.). They rarely came out for show & tell. Appears to have imperial markings on top with date of 1913. Has three other mags. Two original wood bottoms and one that is questionable. Looking from some proper grips and will most likely have the ivory worked over to removed the terrible carvings.....with reversed swastika. I'll post more pictures when I get a chance.
Take Care!!

[roaddog.]

S&S

[Jim Watson]

HSc looks pretty good. No proof marks shown.

38H is a later type gun with rough finish and simplified roll mark but still has the safety.

[44 AMP]

It looks like there could be a mark, left side, rear of the triggerguard, next to the grip. I have an HSc with a WaA stamp in that spot.

Thanks for the history of the P.08, it makes more sense than claiming it was a Nazi era presentation piece.

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

In German there is no propper specific word (my first language is German, then Spanish, then English) for Barbecue.
Simply due to the fact forests are mayorly gone in Germany since 1850's and so no hunting takes place anymore and there is simply no room in that people packed tiny country called Germany.
Neighter are there heard's of 1000+ beef cattle known as are still today in Southamerica (a few rich posess about 95% of the land in average in any country in Southamerica) and were known in the "settler" wild west times in the US as well from 1850 on and prior (Pennsylvania was owned by a Mr. Penn as I recall. Imagine you posess whole Texas or Wisconsin, etc as your own cattle ranch and have 12 million of cattle).

Since beef is somewhat a rarety in Germany since it has to be imported then they did not develop a specific word for BBQ (or here in Southamerica it is called "asado").
Observation: since "asado" BBQ has become widespread here the cancer rates have risen dramatically as well (before dialy meat consumption became normality, cancer was almost not known as an terminal sickness over here).

[44 AMP]

There is no proper, specific word in German, and in a lot of other languages for items and concepts that originated after the 18th-19th century, or for things that are/were not common in their societies. Those languages usually use a adoption of another language's word.

There is no proper German word for "moose" (the animal), for one example. Moose are not native to Germany. Another example is refrigerator. In German its Kuhlschrank, which translates as "cold closet". And the German word for Stewardess is "Stewardess".

English is my native language, but I had 4 years of German (graduated with honors) and lived for over a year in Germany in the 1970s.

They do still have forests. There is beef in their diet, though not to the level common in the US.

Pennsylvania was owned by a Mr. Penn as I recall.

If you look at it the right way, every one of the original American Colonies was "owned" by someone, (usually the investors that sponsored the colony) at the time. That hasn't been true for well over two centuries.

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

Not to argue with someone but...

Moose is very well known in Europe most likely in Scandinavia. Germans are the Brothers of Scandinavians so Moose is in german "Elch".

The Elch (Elk) is a very well know german word.
Like here


But the principle is correct just this example is a bit a misshappen.

[James K]

The engraving is (North) American, not German, and it is unlikely that the name is that of a German. The whole thing looks like what were once called "Spoofpistolen" (when Lugers could be bought for $20 and P.38's for $15). I once saw another Luger with "Feldmarshal von Mott" engraved on it. Since the rank is misspelled and neither "Wer ist Wer" nor "Wer war Wer" listed any officer by that name (Mott is a north of England name, not German), I mentally filed the gun under "interesting fakes" and passed on the "rare collector's item" for only $2000 (a lot of money at that time!)

Jim

[roaddog.]

I don't recall ever stating it was a "Nazi era presentation piece".

It is what it is... a cool looking, 104 year old gun I picked up at an auction. It has a questionable history at best. There's simply no way to trace its history between when it was manufactured in 1913 to when it was traded for in the 1940's.....30+ something years later.

What I do know:
• There are many fake/altered P08's out there. After speaking with the grandson and widow, I tend to believe their story......or the story GP told them. BUT, there is no proof.
• After comparing the serial numbers and date to known originals, the gun appears to be a true Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM) 1913 pistol.
• It was part of a 1908 Military Contract, 2nd Issue - produced 1908-1914. Caliber 9mm Parabellum - 4" barrel. A new system of numbering was initiated wherein the block of numbers never exceeded 9,999. Once that figure was reached a letter was added beneath the numbers beginning with “a” and so on through the alphabet.
• Unfortunately the engraving destroyed some of the proofs and markings. 00 is visible in many locations on the gun. Serial number 300 is clear beneath the barrel on the frame. It is impossible to see a letter under the 300 because of the engraving.

• Oh, the "GESICHERT" under the safety in not the engraver. It means "secure". Safety ON

Attached are some additional pictures.

[roaddog.]

I'll send more pics tomorrow. File size is too large to upload to your site