Harvesting versus Hunting

[aarondhgraham]

The "Fair Chase" thread got me to thinking about this,,,
I didn't want to hijack his thread so I started this new one.

When I was a kid and my Dad took me on my first deer hunt,,,
We drove way up in the mountains and made camp,,,
Then we spent a day before season scouting,,,
We picked our spot and waited for a deer.

Dad knew what he was doing and gave me the best spot,,,
It was high and overlooked a lot of open,,,
I got my first deer that year.

I'm 58 and have a 42 year old nephew,,,
He calls himself a hunter because he fills tags every year.

He hunts in rifle season, black powder season, archery season, and doe season if they have one here that year.

He owns (with brother and father) 160 acres of property,,,
They have 4 permanent tree stands with seats,,,
They feed year round and use cameras,,,
They pick their prey from pics.

In essence, for the entire year, that digital cameras near the feeders,,,
Give them a running look at all the deer on their property,,,
They actually pick beforehand which one they will take.

This is how he has hunted since he was 12 years old,,,
Minus the digital camera of course.

The point of this story is that I do not consider my nephew a hunter,,,
He gets real angry with me when I call him a harvester,,,
But he's never stalked or waited in a hide in his life.

His black powder gun is a modern in-line,,,
His bow is incredibly high tech,,,
But his rifle is a mil-surp.

He has asked me to come with him in the past,,,
I have always politely declined his offer claiming I don't hunt any more.

In reality I would love to go deer hunting again,,,
The thought of having private property to hunt on is appealing.

It's just that the idea of sitting in a tree,,,
To shoot something while it eats it's breakfast,,,
That kind of sport just doesn't seem like real hunting to me.

Am I being overly harsh here?

.

[Old Grump]

I tend to agree with you but on the other hand I am a meat hunter not a trophy hunter and I would rather have a doe in my freezer than the biggest baddest buck head ever hanging on my wall. I only hunt from my deer stand because I can't walk the woods anymore but I am on ground level, (couldn't climb if I wanted to), but I don't feed or otherwise lure deer in. In fact my stand is on and part of my back yard rifle range so they have plenty of notice that guns get shot regularly in that field. Different strokes for different folks but if I was 10 years younger and my legs worked right I would hunt with you, the old fashioned way.

[FrankenMauser]

I very much agree with your point of view.

Harvesters may be doing so because of limited space, or small hunting leases - but it's still not hunting. If I wanted to sit in a tree and stare at the ground, I could do it in my back yard.

I go to the mountains/desert to hunt, not to sit there until some dumb animal wanders into rifle range.

I don't even scout my hunting areas any more. I'm not there to kill; I'm there to hunt. It's much more fun, if you are walking into the area with no idea how the game move through it.

It's a game of strategy, patience, and knowing your "enemy". There have been several years where I got the upper hand on the animal, and chose to let it go. I hunt for meat, but respect a worthy opponent.

[FrontSight]

Guys, I have done both types, and my personal opinion is that:

BOTH are extremely fun & rewarding!

See my boar "hunt" video (more of a shoot) and see if it doesn't look like fun: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=416835

[Pahoo]

Am I being overly harsh here?

Not by your measure !! It's just that his personal hunting code clashes with yours or so it seems. We all have a personal code of ethics when it comes to hunting. Even those that won't hunt, have a code. The foundation of every hunting code, should be strict compliance to the state,s laws and regulations. Other than that, you only have or should have control over what you say, think and do. You don't like his ethics, then don't hunt with him. He probably would have a better time not having someone measuring him. This happens all the time as there are hunters who are un-invited to a group's hunt. Then there are groups that really work as a team and everyone has a great time. The bottom line is to; Do your best, in your own best ways. As hunters, we are all connected and we often give each other a black eye.

By the way, when it comes to wild game, we teach that it is not Harvesting or another word I have heard, is culling. We teach that it is killing and to take full responsibility for our actions. .....

Be Safe !!!

[aarondhgraham]

He brags too much about his hunting success,,,
I guess that's what really bugs me about the situation.

He truly sees himself as a big bad hunter,,,
That's what made me think of the word harvester.

It's like the guy who says he can hit a coke can at 100 yards every shot,,,
Then you find out he is shooting a scoped rifle from a bench,,,
It's still an accomplishment, just not as remarkable.

Hello Pahoo,,,
You are correct in that one should just let it ride,,,
Except for the fact he is family and I have to listen to him a lot.

If he would only brag about his tree-stand building and feeding skills,,,
I wouldn't mind listening to him at all.

.

[.284]

I am all for anyone hunting lawfully by any means they prefer. As a matter of fact, I argued this in past threads. I feel that regardless of our techniques we are all part of a brotherhood that is NOT the antis and the antis need no help from hunters bashing other hunters.

[FrontSight]

Maybe a friendly experiment can solve it...see if he is willing to try one or two seasons without all the technological benefits. If he is successful then you will humbly give him respect, and if not then he has to humbly accept the title of harvester.

I think that is fair, yes...?

[Pahoo]

Hello Pahoo,,,
You are correct in that one should just let it ride,,,
Except for the fact he is family and I have to listen to him a lot.

Hey, he's a jerk and I can fully appreciate this as we have a few in our family. I have a friend that use to be my best hunting buddy. Finally got to the point where the investment in that relationship, could no longer be suppported. Finally got tired of giving it back to him and in short, hunting with him was no longer any fun. Our last hunt together was memorable especially after the Conservation officer let us off with a warning and the landowner called us every name in the book. Some that I had not heard since being in the Navy. He's still a good guy, just not my hunting buddy. ...


Be Safe !!!

[davlandrum]

The bragging would get on my nerves, not the way he hunts.

If he hunted exactly the way you would like him to, was successful, and still bragged about it - would it be any different?

[ZeroJunk]

If a hunter is breaking the law report them to the wildlife authorities in your state.

Hunt with your own sense of accomplishment and mind your own business.

[Scorch]

When it comes right down to it, if we kill animals for food we all harvest game, we just use different methods to do so. I have had this type of discussion with others in the past. Some were purists (longbow and muzzleloader hunters, primarily), others were multi-weapon hunters like me, and others were "anything goes" hunters (bait, trap, snare, dogs, pitfalls, dynamite, handguns, nets, you name it). While I would not personally pursue game by most of those means, if it is legal, I do not have problems with others doing it. As for whether or not something is hunting, I also know several spear hunters who claim that using anything else is not fair. To each his own, I guess.

I started hunting when I was 17 with a recurve bow and a 30-30, switched to a 7X57 when I was 19, and added several rifles and compound bows as the years went by. I have hunted by stalking and stand hunting my whole life. If it is legal, I have no qualms whether or not you do it. I am not a purist, but I try not to condemn others and the way they choose to harvest game.

[Kreyzhorse]

I think he might be missing out on some of the things that makes hunting fun, but I still consider him a hunter. Not my style, but the guy still goes out and makes the shot on a deer when it counts.

[DiscoRacing]

I hunt every year... no cameras. no stand, no feeding. But I do get a deer every year... I go for meat tho,, not for horns. Everyone on the property ajoining the land that we hunt go for big horns. I keep the buck that I can on the land that we hunt. Horns dont yield much meat for me.

[briandg]

All other things aside, yes, he is harvesting. If he spends all year planning for these kills then walks into the woods on opening day knowing exactly what he is after, where it will be, and just takes it so he can have it for the table and the wall,

where is that different than growing and harvesting a prize pumpkin????

Maybe all of the planning and effort can be called hunting, as it is still used to locate and take the animal. I don't know and don't care to split the hairs there.

To me, though, someone who hunts every season, without fail, with the dogged tenacity of a starving hyena and takes everything he desires has gone beyond "hunter" and become "gatherer."

If he is feeding them, training them, hand selecting them, and basically raising them from pups on his own property just so he can shoot them, doesn't that make him more like a farmer?

One thing I would dearly like to know, is whether he is one of the many people who sell the meat, racks or mounts that he doesn't keep. I think that doing it for profit like that would finally push him into "market hunter" description, and that, by nobody's definition, is anything but a harvester.

[Double Naught Spy]

The point of this story is that I do not consider my nephew a hunter,,,
He gets real angry with me when I call him a harvester,,,
But he's never stalked or waited in a hide in his life.

It is all rather an issue of splitting hairs on details of what is or is not hunting. You mentioned that your father gave you the best spot after scounting. Your nephew baits. In both cases, deer were expected to show up. The difference is, your nephew enticed the deer with something other than what is in nature.

As for using cameras, your father scouted. It is the same thing, just different approaches. Both involve determining the presence and frequency of animal traffic.

You sat over the best natural spot and took your deer. Your nephew sits over bait. Sounds to me like you both harvest, only he does it with the benefit of better technology and helping making the situation happen.

In both cases, the deer are still operating under their own free will and are not penned up.

I have seen a similar debate on open sights versus scopes. "Real hunters" apparently don't use scopes. Scopes take the challenge out of hunting.

I have spent a lot of years reading southwest Native American ethnographies on their hunting methods. Initially many felt that the whiteman ways of just going out and killing an animal was not proper hunting either because the white man did not engage in ritual preparation for the hunt, ritual after the kill, or ritual after returning home with the bounty. Who is right?

I never saw where the white man was called harvesters, but the white man ways were looked down upon much in the same way you are looking down on your nephew's methods.

So what does it hurt if your nephew calls himself a hunter? You are the elder and more mature person of the pair of you, right? What does it matter what he calls himself to you? Who says he needs to hunt to your standards? If your standards don't meet those of somebody else, do you think it is alright if they say you aren't a hunter? If they use cruder methods, less technology, and have to work harder than you, are you less of a hunter than they are?

[bswiv]

What KREYZHORSE said:

"I think he might be missing out on some of the things that makes hunting fun"

Louann and I don't hunt over bait but the brother in law does. And I'll admit that when we've used up our pork what we get from him is darn good.

And I'll add this, that the sharing of the meat (Something we all know is part and parcel of the hunting experence.), not just with us but with the guys at work and friends, is just as rewarding for him either way.

In fact this week for our usual Thursday morning breakfast at work Louann is frying a batch of quail one of our customers brought by. They will be good......even though they came off a "preserve", meaning they were shot more in a harvest mode than a hunt mode.

We'll eat 'em and enjoy them and appreciate the fact the guy gave them to us. And if he had a good time "harvesting" them more the better.

[aarondhgraham]

I know I will lose any argument I present,,,
It's one of those "You have to be there" things.

I think my point is that there is no skill whatsoever in what he does,,,
The longest rifle shot he will ever make is less than 50 yards,,,
The longest bow shot he will ever make is only 25 yards,,,
That's because he has placed his stands just so.

And he knows they will be there,,,
Because he feeds them all dang year.

I'm sorry guys,,,
I just can't call that hunting,,,
But that's just me so your mileage may vary.

.

[briandg]

Just like picking a pumpkin.

You aren't alone.

There is nothing wrong, IMO, about using some of the modern techniques, but this sort of hunting is so far removed from the way the primitives hunted that it deserves a whole different word.

When I was growing up, I hunted with a 45 lb recurve bow, and a percussion lock kentucky rifle. (round ball.) This actually gave me a bit of a handicap, compared to when I was out in the far shorter rifle season.

The current primitive weapons season and hunting is a mockery of what it used to stand for. Saboted jacketed bulletsfrom inline muzzle loaders that sometimes don't even use black powder are no different than a cartridge load in ballistics or performance with comparable weapons.

[ZeroJunk]

I usually get the wife to let me out in the national forest where I have never been. I sniff the air for the tell tale aroma of a buck in rut. Then wearing only a loin cloth and the scent of pine needles I creep up on my prey and kill him with a bow and arrow that I made.

And I will look down my self righteous nose at anybody who does it differently.

[Double Naught Spy]

I'm sorry guys,,,
I just can't call that hunting,,,

You probably "hunt" with a gun of some sort, don't you? And you call yourself a hunter?

Back in the 1960s, Louis Leakey sought to prove that the crude tools of Homo habilis could be used for hunting, contrary to the thinking of many of the paleoanthropologists of the time. So Leakey knapped a couple of replicated tools from H. habilis' time period and ran down a small artiodactyl and killed and butchered it with the tools.

Leakey was a hunter.

[BWT]

I bet if we asked hunters from history which they would prefer, I'm thinking they would love the advances in equipment and the warmth of a fully customized deer blind. The same with vehicles, homes etc. I mean who do you know that would really turn down heating and cooling, or a guaranteed hunt, knowing that there would be food to eat. That being said, I do miss the old days and old ways. Course, one of those hunters from 200 years ago would probably not call it real hunting even if they would have seen us 30 years ago.

[nate45]

...and its only real fishing if you use a cane pole and natural bait.

PS: Don't forget your overhauls, straw hat and corn cob pipe.

[DiscoRacing]

it IS real fishing when you use a compound bow.

[roy reali]

What if some hunter, in the future, used one of these, slightly modified of course?

http://www.ga-asi.com/products/aircraft/predator.php

The hunter could operate this thing from the comfort of his truck cab. Heck, he wouldn't have to leave his hotel room. Unless he is successful and has to go and dress the animal. Maybe a robot could be designed to that task.