need some advice

[bp22]

going to purchase either a M&P ar15 in 556 or the ruger, my question I don't know much about these guns I mostly have shot deer rifles and pistols but got into a conversation about shtf and he ask me what kind of optics would you go red dot or scope, no time withred dots but familiar some what with scopes,where to go from here. thanks

[marine6680]

I'm not sure if I would qualify the M&P Sport II or the Ruger 556 as a SHTF rifle. ( I am assuming you are referring to those models, and not the higher end models from S&W or Ruger)


They are very good entry level AR though... And likely they would work fine and give you no issues, even for home defense. Just not sure they are up to use in harsh environments.


As far as optics on an AR... Its all down to what your goals are.

For a defensive rifle, a red dot is king... Just don't buy the cheap ones at a store. If you are budget limited, go to Primary Arms website, and get their Advanced Micro Red Dot. With AR height riser. I prefer the lower 1/3 cowitness riser. With a fixed front sight, it is the way to go. HERE IS A LINK to the PA red dot. Its $175 with a riser.

Its the lowest cost red dot that I would trust to work when I need it, even if it gets bumped around.

Sightmark and others are not worth the money to me.

Vortex makes pretty good stuff... But none of their sights have always on battery life rated in years, only a few thousand hours max, so they shut off automatically after a set number of hour to save battery life.

The PA unit has a bit over 5 years of battery life. Always on capability is a big thing for me on a defensive rifle. I turn it on and it stays on, and I don't have to ever worry about the battery. (I change the batteries every year on my defensive rifle, just to be safe though)

You don't need fancy features like motion activation on a red dot, if the battery life is 50k hours... Some cheaper sights have it, but I find it a gimmick more than a useful feature... But it is useful on sights with lower battery life, to make them always ready, but extend the battery life to reasonable time frames.

If you want to shell out a bit more for a duty grade optic... The cheapest option is the Aimpoint PRO at $400.


Zeroed at 50yds, a red dot is useful out to $250 yards with no adjustments to how you aim. And still useful out to 300-350yds, but with the shot hitting a bit low of COM.


Magnification isn't really a concern for defensive focused rifles... But in a true SHTF situation, if you live in an area with a lot of open ground, it may be useful to have some magnification. Low power no more than 6x is ideal for that purpose, but I would suggest an offset sight to make close range viable too. Close range is always the most important area to focus on for defense.


A note about the rifles listed... I have been seeing them for sale at stores for $650...

With some shopping around, and/or a willingness to buy online... You can get a basic Colt 6920 for $800. (sometimes $750)

An Aero Precision can be bought from Brownells site, for $600 (give or take depending on sales and the like) and I consider it the best AR you can get for under $700, and one I would trust for SHTF.

Palmetto State Armory has their Freedom line rifles on sale for $500... I also consider them SHTF capable.

The reason I recommend the AP and PSA for SHTF over the S&W and Ruger... Is that I know that the PSA and AP rifles are using quality parts, made from the proper materials to proper specs, and parts like the bolt are quality proof tested.

The S&W and Ruger are more vague with their parts and specs. (between the two, I would choose the S&W it has a nitride treated barrel, the Ruger uses a plain steel barrel from my understanding)

[spacemanspiff]

My advice: get used to the iron sights first, then move on to an optic. That's going to give you a lot more time to make up your mind if you want a red dot or magnified.

[jmr40]

The military doesn't even use irons anymore. A decent quality low powered scope does everything better than dot sights and if of the same quality costs less.

You can find good 1-3X20, 1-4X20 or 1.5-4X20 scopes under $200. On the lowest settings they are faster to use than dots or irons. Cranked up to 4X they give you enough precision to hit human size targets to at least 400 yards. If on a tighter budget some of the 2-7X32 scopes are closer to $150. There is a difference. A 1X or 1.5X really is faster to use than a 2X. But if money is tight there are better prices on the 2-7X's

Dot sights are difficult to use in bright light and almost impossible in poor light. It is hard to see the dot in bright light. In poor light you can see the dot, but the optics are so bad you can't see the target.

I really like the 1-6X24 scopes built on 30mm tubes. But they cost more and are heavier. But offer more versatility. I have a Vortex Strike Eagle on my Ruger MPR. I can illuminate the aiming point if I need to, but don't ever envision a need. Unlike conventional dot sights it isn't dependent on a working battery. I have 1-4X20's on a couple of others and a 3-9X40 on the one I use for hunting or longer range use.

It is sort of a toss up between Ruger an Smith. I like the Ruger a little better, especially the MPR version. It is only a bit more expensive.

[ice monkey]

I have both a scope, and a red dot on a 45 degree rail.

I’ll say this, if I was only ever in a city, a red dot is all you’ll ever need. I’m freaking awesome with mine against renegade coke cans out to 150 no problem! But I’m out in the country too and out there, there’s very little to no cover, I need a scope for out there.

The red dot is fast, and shtf targets are pretty darn big, way bigger than a coke can so, if you had to pick one... but seriously, get both.

[marine6680]

Um... JMR...

Good red dot sights are a breeze to use in all lighting situations, just adjust the brightness control.

Only really cheap red dot have crappy optics.

Quality ones are very clear... Even decently made mid range stuff is pretty good optically.


There are also easier and faster than the LPV scopes are... Even on 1x a LPV scope is limited by the fact that it is a scope. Eye placement still matters.


Now that I live in Colorado, I have a rifle with a 4x ACOG and an offset RMR... Seemed a good setup for a mix of open terrain and potentially close range needs. Should be useful in the highly unlikely event of a serious situation with a breakdown of law and order occur...

I have red dots on three other rifles, and a Trijicon 1.5x ACOG on another. I have another with a long range scope, and a very good barrel for precision. One of my rifles with a red dot is my go to home defense rig.

I don't really see it likely they will be needed for anything other than the range, at least not SHTF kind of stuff, but I like having good rifles setup in a "practical" manner.

Nothing beats a red dot at 10-25yds, and it's still the best option for most people on shots inside 100yds... And is still useful out to 300yds if you practice with them at that range.

[raimius]

The military doesn't even use irons anymore. A decent quality low powered scope does everything better than dot sights and if of the same quality costs less.

You can find good 1-3X20, 1-4X20 or 1.5-4X20 scopes under $200. On the lowest settings they are faster to use than dots or irons. Cranked up to 4X they give you enough precision to hit human size targets to at least 400 yards. If on a tighter budget some of the 2-7X32 scopes are closer to $150. There is a difference. A 1X or 1.5X really is faster to use than a 2X. But if money is tight there are better prices on the 2-7X's

Dot sights are difficult to use in bright light and almost impossible in poor light. It is hard to see the dot in bright light. In poor light you can see the dot, but the optics are so bad you can't see the target.

No...just no.
I firmly believe that 1-x scopes are the most versatile optics out there, but red dots are reliably faster at short ranges. This has been tested and proven MANY times. On human/deer sized targets, red dots "win" out to about 100yds. After that, some magnification starts to help (particularly for partially concealed targets). If you are considering defensive use of a rifle, it is EXTREMELY rare for defensive shootings to exceed 100yds, so the red dot is the most logical choice.

Good red dots, such as Aimpoints have very clear glass, and do not bloom out except in the highest settings. Yes, some thought has to be given to adjusting them for lighting, but illuminated scopes face the same issues.

[G.barnes]

A red dot will always be faster than an lpv for target acquisition. If you get a good lpv like a trijicon or nightforce that have a true 1x than it’s not as big of a difference as if your comparing to a cheap scope like a strike eagle or a primary arms. On most scopes you have to spend money to get daylight bright. With red dots if it’s not daylight bright quit being cheap and buy a reputable red dot. The only red dots I’ve had that weren’t daylight bright were 100 ones I bought when I first got into ar’s. You can find used aimpoint pros for 300 dollars without even trying.

[pblanc]

I would agree with a red dot sight. I have a SIG Romeo 5 and I am very happy with it. It has a 2 MOA dot that remains crisp even at higher intensity settings. The MOTAC motion-detecting instant-on is very sensitive and works very well and the unit shuts itself off after 10 minutes if it detects no motion. It so happens that Palmetto State Armory has the SIG Romeo 5 on sale for $129.99 with free shipping right now, but the sale ends at midnight tonight. I think you would be hard-pressed to find a better RDS at that price.

As for the Ruger AR 556 versus the Smith and Wesson M&P 15 Sport II, both are good quality basic AR carbines. I own the Ruger but have shot the M&P Sport and Sport II a number of times. They are more similar than they are different, but there are a few differences.

Both use very similar basic polymer furniture, but I prefer the contour of the Ruger pistol grip to that of the M&P. Of course, pistol grips are easily and frequently swapped. The Ruger uses a mil-spec type trigger guard with a polymer lower similar to that of the Magpul trigger guard. On the M&P the trigger guard lower is an integral forged portion of the lower. I am not sure that this makes any functional difference.

The Ruger uses a threaded Delta ring instead of the mil-spec type, spring-loaded slip ring of the M&P. I prefer the Ruger Delta ring as it makes it much easier to remove and reinstall the hand guard. The Ruger front sight block does not have a permanently attached sling swivel but it incorporates a quick release sling swivel socket. The M&P has the permanently attached traditional sling swivel.

The M&P uses a Magpul MBUS flip-up rear sight with dual apertures and a release button on both sides. The Ruger has a proprietary flip-up rear sight with only a single aperture and a release button on the right side only. The finish on the M&P is a bit glossier. Some prefer the finish on the Smith, some the Ruger.

Both carbines have basic single-stage, mil-spec triggers which are nothing special. But as for stock triggers, the M&Ps I have shot have had a bit lighter triggers than the stock Ruger trigger. The barrel on the M&P is nitrided, as was mentioned. The M&P uses a barrel with a 1:9 twist rate and the Ruger a 1:8 twist rate. I prefer the faster twist of the Ruger as it allows one the option to shoot somewhat heavier projectiles accurately. Either barrel should stabilize the common 55 and 62 grain projectiles perfectly well, however.

I have seen both carbines on sale for $499.99 multiple times in the last couple of years. Unless one of the differences mentioned above makes a big difference to you, I would say go with whichever carbine you can find the best deal on. But I do agree that Palmetto State Armory sells some very good AR uppers, lowers, and complete rifles at a very competitive price. Buying a PSA upper and lower separately and putting them together often allows you considerably more flexibility in options than buying a complete stock rifles. Although I have never owned a Aero Precision, I have heard consistently good reports of them.

[spacemanspiff]

The military doesn't even use irons anymore.

Great! Good for them! I will continue to preach about learning how to use irons, especially when its on a platform that a shooter is not well versed in.

[T. O'Heir]

"...military doesn't even use irons anymore..." Totally different thing than hunting anything. The military only wants a hit. Where or what happens after the hit isn't important. A hunter wants a one shot kill.
The issue with red dot sights is the size of the dot. A 2 or 3 MOA dot will completely cover the entire black of a regular sighting-in target(the one with the squares). Hard to place a shot accurately if you can't see the target.
An optical sight is exactly the opposite. Lets you see the target better. Which scope is mostly about what your doing with the rifle though.
The whole thing won't make any difference if society collapses anyway. Unless you have tons of ammo now, you won't be able to get it.

[Fishbed77]

I'm not sure if I would qualify the M&P Sport II or the Ruger 556 as a SHTF rifle. ( I am assuming you are referring to those models, and not the higher end models from S&W or Ruger)

Agreed. These are consumer-grade rifles and not hard-use defensive rifles.

The good news is that you can get a Colt 6920 or a BCM upper (on a lower of your choice) for not much more money than the options mentioned.

That said - I agree with others that you can start with some high-quality irons (I prefer Troy Battle Sights) and get an optic down the road. Even when you mount an optic, you still need good back-up iron sights, and you need to know how to use them.

For a defensive rifle, a red dot is king... Just don't buy the cheap ones at a store. If you are budget limited, go to Primary Arms website, and get their Advanced Micro Red Dot. With AR height riser. I prefer the lower 1/3 cowitness riser. With a fixed front sight, it is the way to go. HERE IS A LINK to the PA red dot. Its $175 with a riser.

I agree that a red dot is the way to go for a civilian defensive rifle. But on a hard use rifle, I wouldn't bother with any budget optics. I would start with an Aimpoint PRO, which can occasionally be found on sale for under $400. You will never outgrow it.

[marine6680]

I agree that the PRO is the lowest cost hard use duty grade red dot...


But I would trust the PA offering for HD use... It's not really "hard use" as it's not going to suffer much abuse in your home... None that I would think would cause a failure.

It's more about the electronics inside and internal construction being robust and reliable. The PA can handle that much.


Saving for a PRO is the best way to go if more expensive options are out of reach.

[SmokeyLonesome]

I'm in Colorado. I see you are too.

[imashooter]

Very nice deal (free shipping) for a good 2 moa red dot if you go red dot. https://palmettostatearmory.com/sig-...ck-r52001.html

[riffraff]

I would go w/ the Aero, if you are not familiar with buying guns online here's the basics of how to do it easy and get yourself a nice semi custom setup.

#1 pick your brand, sure you can use any brand, but better to stick with one manufacturer. Write down part #'s for a complete lower from them, with or without the stock is fine (they snap on in 5 seconds and are bout $40 for a magpul that's as good as what you get w/ all the standard sort of AR 15's)..

My recommendation would be Aero and to get one of their enhanced carbine lowers, about $200. +/- if you get one with the stock or not. March down to your local gun shop with part numbers in hand and say "I would like to order one of these"..

#2 pick the upper you want to match that, with a bolt carrier group and charging handle if it does not come bundled that way. This you do not need a gun shop for, you can ship it to your door in any state where regular AR's can be owned basically.

Again, I'd go w/ Aero, and I like their enhanced style uppers that have the solid rail across the top, but pick what you want.. Upper, bolt carrier group, and charging handle runs you about $600 if not on sale (and often they are on sale)..

#3 clean your barrel like you need to with any new rifle, lube your bolt carrier group and charging handle like you need to with any new rifle, snap the parts together (these are parts that *must* come apart even if you buy that S&W as it's part of basic lube & cleaning to take them out prior to shooting a new rifle).. Then you got a rifle that is much better than the S&W or Ruger version..

As far as an optic - if it's your only AR, do not put a magnified optic on it, and definitely do not put a scope on it. Run it with iron sights if you want, or run it with a red dot 1X if you want, but that is the most versatile setup. I like my Sig Romeo5 - like $120 on Ebay, good simple compact red dot, military grade I dunno, works fine, not cheap questionable stuff. In a SHTF situation I'd probably pick my rifle that has iron sights if I had to choose one.

[Fishbed77]

Very nice deal (free shipping) for a good 2 moa red dot if you go red dot. https://palmettostatearmory.com/sig-...ck-r52001.html

I actually have one of these on the way for range use (found an even better price than PSA's online). I have read only good reviews of them and will let you all know how it stacks up when I get a chance.

[bp22]

a lot of good advice, from what I have read a scope is out and red dot is in. I do appreciate your help and from any others that may post. I did see an m&p core scout for sale but I need to read about these rifles more.

[lordmorgul]

I would recommend the Ruger (I do not own) over the MP Sport II (which I own).

That said, an earlier poster has given fantastic advice about buying Aero Precision parts or partially assembled halves and assembling your own rifle. I own two Aero rifles and they far exceed the capabilities and reliability of the MP Sport II. They will also grow with you well while the MP is merely an entry level rifle.

As far as optics, a 1-? scope is fine if it can go all the way to 1x. A red dot is better for inside home, and out to 100 yards. In a real disaster scenario you won’t be shooting anything outside that range but rather conserving, hiding, or evading instead.

Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / CRPA / FPC / USCCA member

[lordmorgul]

I really like my Vortex Strikefire II red dot and Vortex Spitfire Prism 1x sights. Would recommend either. The prism is useful because it is etched and a bad battery does not make it useless, but the downsides are it cannot be co-witnessed with backup sights (blurry front sight when trying due to the prism having a front and back lens and limited eye relief, and also that it is more susceptible to eye position caused parallax error than the red dot is.

For a scope, I have Vortex 1-6x Strike Eagle, they now make a 1-8x model of this and it is excellent too. More dependent on eye position than either the red dot or prism is. Bushnell makes a nice 1-4x 24mm objective with 30mm tube optic also for good discount price.


Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / CRPA / FPC / USCCA member