Hunting Rifle and Caliber - Disabled

[USAF Ret]

My first time posting here. I am a disabled vet with back and shoulder injuries so I am a bit recoil sensitive. I got back into shooting this year. I bought a heavy barrel HOWA 308 and installed a muzzle brake on it. It is a literal pleasure to shoot, but not at all practical for anything besides bench shooting and the apocalypse.
I am looking at getting one all-around hunting rifle. If I was hunting deer in the SE, I could easily just go with a .243. However my son moved to CO and would like to go out and elk or mule deer hunt with him sometime.
I have been doing a lot of research on what is the smallest caliber I can use and still be ethical. I have seen the 7mm-08 has good ballistics out to 300 yards which is about my comfortable max range and has mild recoil. I would like to get a rifle that has a good balance of weight as well. Light enough to carry without issues but heavy enough to keep recoil down. Was looking at the Weatherby Vangaurd S2 and the Savage 116.

Just looking for general thoughts from folks with experience. Thanks.

[Striker1]

Check out the 6.5 Creedmoor

Your ability to put up with recoil is going to be highly subjective, only you can determine what works for you. Considering that a smaller caliber with a heavier rifle typically offers the lowest recoil, you'll probably have to play around in those areas Stock design can play a part as well but if you change either of those two it will kick harder.

[jmr40]

A 7-08 has about 1 ft lb less recoil than 308. The difference at 500 yards is 1" less drop and about 30 ft more energy in favor of 7-08. The 2 are ballistic twins, but 308 ammo is a lot cheaper and easier to find.

The 6.5 Creedmoor has less energy at the muzzle, but still plenty for any game animal in the lower 48. But the very efficient bullets surpass 308 and 7-08 at longer ranges. It is actually very close in performance to 270 which is 6.8mm. The 270 shoots the same bullet weights as 6.5 about 100 fps faster at the muzzle, but the 6.5's pass it at ranges over 200 yards.

Recoil is just a bit more than 243, much less than 308 or 7-08. Ammo is readily available, even at Walmart now and priced about the same as 308.

The Vanguards are the heaviest rifles made. Close to 8 lbs before mounting a scope. A Tikka will still be under 7 lbs AFTER you scope it and be more accurate. A Savage will split the difference in weight. They tend to be very accurate as well.

[Wyosmith]

In a standard Bolt action I would say your choice of a 7-08 is just fine.
If you wish to go with a 6.5MM I'd look harder at the 6.5X55 instead of the 6.5 Creedmoor.
The Creedmoor was developed as an concept to duplicate the Swede, and it comes pretty close and does so in a rifle that can take a NATO detachable 20 round magazine. In a rifle using such a magazine the CM is the heads-up winner, But in standard length bolt actions the original Swede is still the gold standard. If you were to get a Ruger Precision Rifle
the 6.5 CM would get the nod because of the type of magazine it uses. But they are heavy.
But your "mission statement" leave you many options. For an all around rifle that can be used for elk, and having a self imposed max range of 300 yards, don't forget to look at the BLR Lever action, the various AR10 auto loaders which can be had in 7-08 and have very mild recoil. Accuracy can be and often is as good as a bolt action from both of these guns. IN an AR, I have found the recoil with a standard 308 to be quite light, and for elk I would choose a 7MM or 30 cal over a 6.5. Not that there is anything wrong with a 6.5. But you are talking about buying something new for that purpose and from what you wrote in the OP, I'd recommend a 308 or 7-08 over the various 6.5s for the same money. Hunters will learn to appreciate an exit wound on elk pretty fast if they kill many of them. Bullets that hold together and exit the elk are what you'll want, and it's easier to find such bullets in 7MM and 30 cal than it is in 6.5 cal.

That may be picking nits because if you have one in 6.5 cal and it is accurate, why would you need 2.

So those that would tell you a good 6.5 is fine for elk are telling you the truth.

But I recommend the 7MM and 30 because no one is going to try to tell you a 6.5MM is BETTER than a 7MM or 30 cal at 300 yards and closer.
If they do, they have not killed many elk. I have. I have seen a lot more killed too as a guide for about 40 years. Broken bones and exit wounds are your friends.
As a hunter with some disabilities I can promise you faithfully you will not want to have your elk go far after you shoot them.

[RC20]

Check out the 6.5 Creedmoor

Agreed whole heartedly.

Also keep in mind, Kickeezee, Limbsaver etc make great recoil pads that can help any gun. In combo with and MB it would be sweet.

They use 6.5 in Scandinavia for Moose hunting and those come as big as Alaska moose (and certainly average size is an Elk size)

As always its bullet choice that is important.

[taylorce1]

If you like your .308 you might consider sticking with what you know. You might look at bullets like the 130 grain TTSX to take elk with, it's the load I use in my daughter's .300 Savage and is pretty mild at 2900 fps. It's not a real long range round but I'd give my daughter the nod to pull the trigger on elk out to 400 yards. Get a hunting weight rifle and add a muzzle brake, use a lighter bullet and I'm betting you won't notice much if any difference between your current Howa.

[T. O'Heir]

If you're not having any issues with the Howa, you won't with any other braked .308 either. Assuming you're not reloading, do the "Wal-Mart Test" for chambering. If you can find ammo in your local Wally World, it'll likely be in all of 'em.
Factory 7mm-08 pretty much comes in 120, 140, 150 and the odd 160 grain bullets. Out of an 8 pound rifle, a 140 at 2860 FPS has 12.6 ft-lbs of recoil energy. That's real recoil, not felt recoil. No like bullet weight or rifle weight in .308 for comparison, but a 150 at 2800 FPS out of a 7.5 pound rifle, has 15.8 ft-lbs. A brake will reduce the felt recoil.
Just remember that the only time the recoil will matter is on the bench when you're sighting in. Other than that it's the weight of the rifle you have to carry.
A fibreglass stocked standard M1A(9.3 lbs.) might be ideal for you(assuming there's the budget. $1600ish plus with no scope.). Have a non-scoped, semi'd, Winchester M-14 (no idea what the weight is. Not at home to check.) with the issue fibreglass stock that's a dream to carry and has no recoil. Scope and mount will add a few pounds.
"...They use 6.5 in Scandinavia..." That'd be 6.5 x 55. Not Creedmoor.

[USAF Ret]

Ok, I have been looking up ballistics and I am getting sold on the 6.5 Creed. I understand ammo may not be at the local WM right now, but it seems this cartridge is getting very popular. Looking at a stainless model. Savage 16, Vanguard S2 and the T/C Venture. Short action would be easier to carry, but would probably be worse on the shoulder. Heavy would be worse on the back, but better on the shoulder. Getting old and broken down ain't fun.

[Paul B.]

"Getting old and broken down ain't fun." I hear that. In my case it's bad knees and back. I've been doing an elk ranch hunt these past few years mostly with a .35 Whelen or 30-06. This year I'm looking at a .280 Remington or 7x57 Mauser Which I hand load to 7-08 levels in a Winchester M70 Featherweight.(FWT) (A bit over 7 pounds with sling and scope) I had my gunsmith add a Decelerator recoil pad so my wife could shoot the rifle but seems I'm the only one using it.
The only 7-08 I've ever shot was a friend's Remington M7 and it was not bad at all. My current handload runs the 150 gr. Nosler Partition at 2700+ FPS from the FWT with fairly mild recoil.

The ballistic data from Wikipedia:
140 gr (9 g) Nosler Partition 2,800 ft/s (850 m/s) 2,437 ft·lbf (3,304 J)
150 gr (10 g) Speer Hot-Cor SP 2,650 ft/s (810 m/s) 2,339 ft·lbf (3,171 J)
175 gr (11 g) Nosler Part 2,595 ft/s (791 m/s) 2,617 ft·lbf (3,548 J)

I think the 150 gr. load should be just about right for most out west use if using factory ammo.
Paul B.

[GeauxTide]

I also recommend the 280. I put a 700 action in a Boyd's Prairie Hunter Stock with a Kickeze pad. I loaded some 154s at 2700 and the recoil isn't bad for a 69 year old feller with 2 spine surgeries.

[epl1007]

I’d say 6.5 Creedmoor or 7mm-08. They will both carry their energy well expecialy the 6.5 at distance. I’m getting a new rifle myself soon a 6.5 Tikka T3x Lite when I can save up the money. 260 Rem is another solid option but hard to find billets sometimes.

[Mobuck]

The 7mm08 doesn't have significantly less recoil than a 308 of similar weight--I have both calibers in the same model rifle so I know this is true. I also have a 280 and it has slightly more recoil than the 7mm08 simply because it carries 100-200 more FPS. Similar weight bullets within a reasonable caliber range at similar velocities from similar platforms will have similar recoil.
The 6.5 Creedmore is everyone's' pet these days but the hype will wear off sooner or later--physics don't lie and the 6.5C isn't voodoo magic.
I like the HOWA/Wby Vanguard rifles and will say the factory synthetic stocks ease the felt recoil for me.
I'm having shoulder problems that have put me on the "recoil reduction highway". On my 2018 cow elk hunt, I intend to carry a Savage 110 in 25/06. With the right bullet selection, I'm certain the 25/06 will handle the task. It has manageable recoil, good accuracy, and within reason has the energy levels to ethically kill an elk.

[RC20]

k, I have been looking up ballistics and I am getting sold on the 6.5 Creed. I understand ammo may not be at the local WM right now, but it seems this cartridge is getting very popular. Looking at a stainless model. Savage 16, Vanguard S2 and the T/C Venture. Short action would be easier to carry, but would probably be worse on the shoulder. Heavy would be worse on the back, but better on the shoulder. Getting old and broken down ain't fun.

I would go with the short action. Its a very light recoiling cartridge.

Add a good quality butt pad to it if you want to be sure.

No, getting old pretty well sucks but I have not found a work around yet.

Do it as best you can.

[USAF Ret]

Folks, great information. I appreciate all of the input. While I hate to hear that other folks are dealing with the same disabilities, it is nice to know I am not the only one.

[Don Fischer]

Disabled. Make's all the difference in what you get. What you don't want much of is recoil but still be able to shoot and adequate bullet at an elk. I have a 6.5x55 and had one for the ex too. She quit shooting a 6mm Rem in favor of the 6.5. I'm also a fan of the 7x57 and the 280 Rem. I would not get either of those. For myself in your situation I'd get a 260 Rem but then I also reload. So In your situation, unless you reload, I'd go the 6.5 Creedmoor. Never shot one but shoot my 6.5's quite a bib. the Creedmoor is a smaller cartridge that I suspect will recoil very little. It's also got very popular and ammo is more available over the counter than the 260 or the 6.5x55. I think you'd find 6.5x55 ammo across the counter loaded to consider the old military rifle's that may not contain the pressure as well as modern rifle's. Mine is a Mod 70 and the loads for it far exceed the loads listed for old Mauser's. I believe Mossberg makes the 6.5 Creedmoor in their Patriot rifle. I have two of them and couldn't be happier. Mine are both wood stocked and go right at 7#. A bit less with the plastic stock. Lot of guy's like the Ruger American, supposed to be a very good shooting rifle.

USAF 1965-1973

[USAF Ret]

Originally Posted by Don Fischer

Disabled. Make's all the difference in what you get. What you don't want much of is recoil but still be able to shoot and adequate bullet at an elk. I have a 6.5x55 and had one for the ex too. She quit shooting a 6mm Rem in favor of the 6.5. I'm also a fan of the 7x57 and the 280 Rem. I would not get either of those. For myself in your situation I'd get a 260 Rem but then I also reload. So In your situation, unless you reload, I'd go the 6.5 Creedmoor. Never shot one but shoot my 6.5's quite a bib. the Creedmoor is a smaller cartridge that I suspect will recoil very little. It's also got very popular and ammo is more available over the counter than the 260 or the 6.5x55. I think you'd find 6.5x55 ammo across the counter loaded to consider the old military rifle's that may not contain the pressure as well as modern rifle's. Mine is a Mod 70 and the loads for it far exceed the loads listed for old Mauser's. I believe Mossberg makes the 6.5 Creedmoor in their Patriot rifle. I have two of them and couldn't be happier. Mine are both wood stocked and go right at 7#. A bit less with the plastic stock. Lot of guy's like the Ruger American, supposed to be a very good shooting rifle.

USAF 1965-1973

"I believe Mossberg makes the 6.5 Creedmoor in their Patriot rifle. I have two of them and couldn't be happier. Mine are both wood stocked and go right at 7#."

How is the accuracy with the Patriot? I have heard mixed reviews.

[Don Fischer]

accuracy in my Partiot was well better than I though it would be, right at 1" with inexpensive factory ammo. Best reloads are going right at and just over 1/2". Also have a 308 Patriot but only shoot cast through it. No idea what it would do with good jacketed loads. Everyone I've hear from with a patriot claims the shoot very well.

The only reason I got the first one, the 243, was to see if I could make it shoot, didn't have a whole lot of faith in the Mossberg. My tune has changed! I had a problem getting one with a wood stock here, Sportsman's in Bend, 70 mi, was getting out of them and only had a plastic stocked one, $299. I bought it and ordered a wood stock from Mossberg right a way. Absolute drop in!I think I paid about $140 for the wood stock but still inexpensive enough just to fool with. A whole lot of years ago I did see an 800 in a heavy barrel 243 but didn't have the money back then! The Patriot start's a whole new way of looking at Mossberg for me. I might add that before going to SxS shotgun's, the Mossberg 500 was my gun of choice.

Inside the Mossberg Patriot stock.


The 243 with wood stock and Nikon 3-9x scope.

[Don Fischer]

Dam* don't know how to edit here, try the rifle again.

[USAF Ret]

Thanks everyone. After looking at all the information and getting input, I am going to go with a Savage Model 11 or 16 on the 6.5. They have the rebate right now. I had one years ago in 7mm-08 and it was a sound rifle.

[ThomasT]

Glad you made up your mind. I was going to suggest a 6.5 Swede from Howa. Or a 7x57 if you could find one. Or one of the ruger Ultralights in 257 Roberts but they are hard to find and pricey when you find them. But I should have bought one when they were available.

I have a Remington Mountain rifle in 7x57 with a slim 22" barrel that only weighs 6.5 pounds without the scope. Its just a tad heavier than my model 7 in 7-08. Both are a pleasure to shoot.

[std7mag]

Wow, guess i was too late to suggest the Kimber Hunter in 257 Roberts...

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

I agree. What he said^^

Had a friend who lived in CO who tore out his shoulder a couple of times working in a auto service garage and found he could no longer handle his 300 Weatherby's recoil. So he bought a 257 roberts and been pleased with his decision having seen success taking elk and deer with the easy recoiling 257 Roberts.

[USAF Ret]

I have heard good things about the .257 Roberts for deer hunting. I would just be concerned about the size bullets available in factory ammunition for elk.

[Lohman446]

Late to the party and I'm going to get chastised for this on this forum but I'm going to suggest in any ways. The .243 will work for Elk. The other caliber considerations offered here still require you to take a careful shot - to some degree all of them do.

That being said... when I bought my .243 I already owned a .270 and did not want to deal with an "odd" ammo. The .270 meant that I had a cartridge size up if I wanted to go bigger than Whitetail. If neither of these had been "on the table" I would have gone with the .257 Roberts. Truth be told when I bought my .243 I was having some issues with the .270 and thought it would have to be rebarreled though the issue ended up being scope related. I had chosen .257 as the rebarrel option and had picked up the .243 to tide me over while it was done.

[kraigwy]

I love the 257 Roberts, excellent deer and antelope round but too light for elk.

My wife is a disabled vet, after braking her back the Iraq war. She has three rods between her shoulder blade and doesnt have much upper body strength. And she cant handle any recoil at all.

She normally uses her 243 for deer/antelope but for elk, like the 257 is a bit light.

She loves the 6.5 CM. Has a RPR w/muzzle brake, and no recoil. But its a bit heavy for her, as a hunting rifle.

Then she started shooting my Ruger American Predator in 6.5 CM. It too has a brake, she swears it has less recoil then her Model 70 243 and is much lighter.

The 6.5 CM with the 143 ELD-X Hornady is proving to be quite the exceptional elk round. But for the recoil shy, it needs a brake in the 6.6 lb RAP. The Predator also proved to be as accurate at her RPR, at 1/3 the price.