Legality of direct mailing BP revolvers from Illinois?

[Bill Akins]

There is a unfired, engraved, nickel and gold with white grips (my favorite setup) 1860 Pietta that I have an opportunity to buy and the seller lives in Illinois.
Pic below...



In Florida our state law allows us to directly mail muzzle loaders within Florida straight to the consumer's doorstep without having to go through an FFL or any other type of restriction. But I'm not sure if Illinois residents can do the same thing. They have some kind of law in Illinois where you have to have some kind of card (card is called an FIOE or something like that) to even own a "firearm", but I am not sure if that law applies to muzzleloaders. I know that in New Jersey they cannot mail muzzle loading revolvers directly to the consumer, nor accept from another state through the mail directly for a consumer in New Jersey. So laws regarding mailing muzzle loaders vary from state to state sometimes. Many states are okay with mailing muzzle loaders directly to the consumer without having to use an FFL, but as we see....some state's laws are NOT okay with that.

According to Federal law, muzzle loaders are exempt from both the 1934 and 1968 gun control acts. They aren't even technically considered "firearms" Federally but are considered antique weapons. And even the post office exempts muzzle loaders from their mailing regulations regarding cartridge revolvers so folks can mail a muzzle loading revolver through the post office.
I had one postal clerk give me a hard time about that once, telling me I could not mail a revolver through the post office even if it was a muzzle loader, but after speaking with his supervisor and showing them in their own rulebook where muzzle loaders are exempt from the postal regulations, he apologized and mailed my muzzle loading revolver.

I'll post those complete postal mailing guns regs at the end of this post just in case anyone ever needs them to show to a postal employee who doesn't know their own regs.

So post office regs wise and Federal law wise, it is okay to mail muzzle loading guns directly to the consumer without going through an FFL. But....state laws can be more restrictive than Federal law and state laws obviously vary from state to state.

I don't want either the seller nor myself to run afoul of any weird Illinois muzzle loading mailing restriction law.

So does anyone here know if an Illinois resident can legally mail directly to me in Florida, without going through an FFL, a muzzle loading revolver?



I highlighted the pertinent postal regs several parts below in red. When you read those red highlighted parts you will see that antique guns or replicas or reproductions of any antique or percussion fired gun may be shipped through the post office. Pay special attention to the USPO regulations part where it says.....

11.2 Antique Firearms

Antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces may be accepted for mailing without regard to 11.1.3 through 11.1.6.



When it says above that antique firearms may be accepted for mailing without regard to sections 11.1.3 through 11.1.6....that means they are exempt from those regulations and you MAY INDEED SHIP THEM THROUGH THE POST OFFICE.


I have included the entire USPO shipping regulations regarding guns for you below. Again pay careful attention to the sections I highlighted in red for you. Those are the postal regulations sections that exempt muzzle loading firearms and allows you to mail them through the USPO.




"USPS - Shipping Terms & Conditions - Firearms

Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms


11.1 Pistols, Revolvers, and Other Concealable Firearms

11.1.1 Definitions

The terms used in this standard are defined as follows:

a. Handgun means any pistol, revolver, or other firearm or device the mailing of which is regulated by this standard.

b. Pistol or revolver means a handgun styled to be fired by the use of a single hand and to fire or otherwise expel a projectile by the action of an explosion, spring, or other mechanical action, or air or gas pressure with enough force to be used as a weapon.

c. Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, designed to, or that may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosion, spring, or other mechanical action, or air or gas pressure with enough force to be used as a weapon.

d. Other firearms capable of being concealed on the person include, but are not limited to, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles.

e. Short-barreled shotgun means a shotgun that has one or more barrels less than 18 inches long. The term short-barreled rifle means a rifle that has one or more barrels less than 16 inches long. These definitions include any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches. A short-barreled shotgun or rifle of greater dimension may be regarded as nonmailable when it has characteristics to allow concealment on the person.

f. Licensed manufacturer and licensed dealer mean, respectively, a manufacturer of firearms or a bona fide dealer of firearms, duly licensed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of the Department of the Treasury, under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618), 18 USC 921, et seq.

g. Antique firearm means any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898, or any replica thereof, if such replica:

1. Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.

2. Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

11.1.2 Handguns

Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (referred to as handguns) are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in 11.1.3 and 11.1.5 after the filing of an affidavit or statement required by 11.1.4 and 11.1.6.

11.1.3 Authorized Persons

Subject to 11.1.4, handguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, a licensed dealer of firearms, or an authorized agent of the federal government or the government of a state, territory, or district, only when addressed to a person in one of the following categories for use in the person's official duties:

a. Officers of the Army, Coast Guard, Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps.

b. Officers of the National Guard or militia of a state, territory, or district.

c. Officers of the United States or of a state, territory, or district, whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitment.

d. USPS employees authorized by the Chief Postal Inspector.

e. Officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States.

f. Watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a state, territory, or district.

g. Purchasing agent or other designated member of agencies employing officers and employees included in 11.1.3c. through 11.1.3e.

11.1.4 Affidavit of Addressee

Any person proposing to mail a handgun under 11.1.3 must file with the postmaster, at the time of mailing, an affidavit signed by the addressee setting forth that the addressee is qualified to receive the firearm under a particular category of 11.1.3a. through 11.1.3g, and that the firearm is intended for the addressee's official use. The affidavit must also bear a certificate stating that the firearm is for the official duty use of the addressee, signed by one of the following, as appropriate:

a. For officers of Armed Forces, by the commanding officer.

b. For officers and employees of enforcement agencies, by the head of the agency employing the addressee to perform the official duty with which the firearm is to be used.

c. For watchmen, by the chief clerk of the department, bureau, or independent branch of the government of the United States, the state, the territory, or the district by which the watchman is employed.

d. For the purchasing agent or other designated member of enforcement agencies, by the head of such agency, that the firearm is to be used by an officer or employee included in 11.1.3c. through 11.1.3e, Authorized Persons.

11.1.5 Manufacturers and Dealers

Handguns may also be mailed between licensed manufacturers of firearms and licensed dealers of firearms in customary trade shipments, or for repairing or replacing parts.

11.1.6 Certificate of Manufacturers and Dealers

A licensed manufacturer or dealer need not file the affidavit under 11.1.4, but must file with the postmaster a statement on Form 1508 signed by the mailer that he or she is a licensed manufacturer or dealer of firearms, that the parcels containing handguns (or major component parts thereof) are customary trade shipments or contain such articles for repairing or replacing parts, and that to the best of his or her knowledge or belief the addressees are licensed manufacturers or dealers of firearms.

11.1.7 FBI Crime Detection Bureaus

Handguns may be mailed without regard to 11.1.3 through 11.1.6 if:

a. Addressed to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), or its director, or to the scientific laboratory or crime detection bureau of any agency whose members are federal law enforcement officers or officers of a state, territory, or district authorized to serve warrants of arrest or commitment; or

b. Offered by an authorized agent of the federal government as an official shipment to any qualified addressee in categories 11.1.3a. through 11.1.3g, or to a licensed manufacturer or dealer of firearms or to a federal agency.

11.2 Antique Firearms

Antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces may be accepted for mailing without regard to 11.1.3 through 11.1.6.

11.3 Rifles and Shotguns

Although unloaded rifles and shotguns not precluded by 11.1.1e and 11.1.2 are mailable, mailers must comply with the Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618, 18 USC 921, et seq., and the rules and regulations promulgated thereunder, 27 CFR 178, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not precluded by 11.1.1e.

11.4 Legal Opinions on Mailing Firearms
Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of rifles or shotguns. Contact the nearest office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for further advice."



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[Hardcase]

The Illinois law doesn't restrict the seller from mailing the gun to you. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the Illinois government would be tickled pink to have another firearm out of the state (sorry, I couldn't help myself.)

Illinois is most concerned about folks receiving guns in the state. Shipping them out appears to be off their radar, in terms of regulations. Of course, the easiest way for the seller to ease his mind would be to give the Illinois State Police a call and ask them - they're the ones who enforce the state gun laws.

I hope it works out for you - I think that particular 1860 is one of the prettiest guns around!

[arcticap]

Originally Posted by Bill Akins

So does anyone here know if an Illinois resident can legally mail directly to me in Florida, without going through an FFL, a muzzle loading revolver?

I bought a muzzle loading rifle from a private individual in Illinois and his FFL told him that it could only be mailed directly if it was being sent back to the manufacturer for repair which would have added red tape to our transaction.
I suggested that he travel over the state border to mail it because he lived right next to it.
He did end up mailing it directly to me and I don't believe that he left the state to do it.
Even an Illinois resident has the right to travel out of state to buy and sell BP guns, to go to shooting matches and to have them fixed by anyone they want.
The only difference is that it's being shipped instead of hand delivered.
The seller will need to decide whether he will go through an FFL to ship it or not.
Then the FFL decides if he will only ship it to another FFL or not, and what he requires before he will ship it.
That's how deals sometimes really get bogged down in red tape.

IIRC there was another occasion when I did buy a muzzle loading rifle from an Illinois dealer. And sure enough he would only ship it to an FFL which I complied with. It cost extra money but what are you going to do? It was a discontinued model that was hard to find.
Now I have found an FFL who won't charge me for accepting delivery of a muzzle loader from another FFL who insists on shipping it that way. If you know a dealer well enough then ask him to do a favor for you on the receiving end.

[Rifleman1776]

In the gun unfriendly states, and Illinois is one of the worst, Fed definitions mean nothing.
I would pack and ship labeling as 'antique' and say nothing to anyone. All you are doing is shipping, you are not smuggling contraband.
I would use UPS or FedEx, not the post office.

[Fingers McGee]

And, I would use the post office not Fedex or UPS.

[Hawg]

And, I would use the post office not Fedex or UPS.

Agreed. UPS and FedEx will give a lot more hassle than the post office.

[DrLaw]

An Illinois gun owner can ship to an out-of-state FFL holder via the post office if it is a cartridge gun.

An Illinois gun owner can ship to anybody via the post office if it is a black powder muzzleloader (front-stuffer).

Just ask for delivery confirmation and put insurance on each.

The Doc is out now.

[zxcvbob]

Another vote for using the Post Office instead of a common carrier.

[Fingers McGee]

I send and receive all my C&Bs via USPS insured electronic return receipt and use Priority flat rate boxes whenever possible. Cheapest, fastest and safest way I've found.