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Old February 26, 2016, 09:32 AM   #1
dr.eimer1
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"Palm Pistol" Project for Disabled Shooters

I am working as a consultant with a firearm designer, Mr. Matthew Carmel, of Constitution Arms (www.ConstitutionArms.com), who has manufactured a hand gun specifically for the disabled. See www.palmpistol.com. He has also designed a carbine for small game hunting.

We are conducting a study to evaluate the extent to which the design mitigates the problems disabled shooters may have when using a traditional hand gun. the reason for the study is to support efforts to convince the FDA to re-list the design as a "medical device" under 21 CFR 890.5050 and .5073. The end goal is to seek reimbursement under Medicare and/or private health insurance for use of the device with disabled shooters.

The study is being conducted at the Delaware Valley Sports Center in Philadelphia. We are looking for disabled shooters to participate.

1. Study participants will receive two to three FREE instructional sessions with the .38 Special Palm Pistol and also, with a standard small J-frame .38 Special revolver and a "user-friendly" traditional 9mm semi-auto.

2. All study participants will also receive a discount on the purchase of the Palm Pistol in exchange for their participation.

Please let me know if you are aware of people who are interested in participating.

Bruce Eimer, Ph.D.
[email protected]
215-947-7867 (947-STOP)
www.PersonalDefenseSolutions.com
www.BruceEimer.com
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Old February 26, 2016, 09:58 AM   #2
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Do participants have to buy a gun to be in the study or is being given a discount on the gun a reward for participating in the study?
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Old February 26, 2016, 03:17 PM   #3
dr.eimer1
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disabled shooters project

No it is a reward. No purchase necessary or expected.

Bruce Eimer
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Old February 26, 2016, 03:46 PM   #4
5thShock
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Single shot in a world of repeaters.? Does this not leave the intended users still disabled?
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Old February 26, 2016, 05:37 PM   #5
Branko
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Single shot is better then nothing. Anyway, interesting concept!

Although a modern version of the "Protector Palm Pistol" which had a revolving cylinder would be probably better suited for self defense (on the other hand, it fired the rather anemic .32 RF). Nevertheless, an interesting concept, wish you luck with testing.
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Old February 26, 2016, 05:43 PM   #6
Model12Win
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Very nice. It is always good to consider the physically disabled.
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Old February 26, 2016, 08:11 PM   #7
RiponP90
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This is really awesome. I get what people are saying about single shot but you have to start somewhere! Better than nothing!
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Old February 26, 2016, 09:01 PM   #8
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I'm just wondering what the basic legal argument is for reimbursement.
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Old February 26, 2016, 09:06 PM   #9
Slimjim9
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Quote:
Specifically, it is designed for patients who wish to participate in and enjoy recreational target shooting but heretofore could not due to medical conditions affecting manual dexterity and/or hand strength, including grip limitations. It is also suitable for personal self defense.
First of all, I think it is admirable to develop such a product. I won't go into details but I am a big proponent of "disability ministry", if you will. But I have to say this device would be much more suited to the recreational aspect and much less suited to the self defense aspect. Trying to claim this is a medical device is also a real stretch, but at $1350/unit, that is probably the only way you'll get any real sales numbers, I.e. if insurance or Medicaid was subsidizing it. Best of luck.
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Old February 26, 2016, 10:05 PM   #10
4V50 Gary
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Shouldn't it have a laser sight? That would help with the "target" shooting pitch.

I know of one vet who may be interested. He lost both legs and an arm when he stepped on a land mine in Nam. I'll email him this info.
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Old February 27, 2016, 12:35 AM   #11
James K
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I have to ask if the pistol passes muster with BATFE, which has frequently ruled that "things" that shoot but don't look like guns fall into the AOW category.*

I think a better approach for the handicapped would be something like a J-frame with a full grip trigger, something like the old Colt 1878 "Alaskan" (yes, I know). That would allow a person with weak hands to fire by "squeezing" the whole gun and it would be a 5/6 shot.

*The original palm pistols are antiques, so AFAIK there has never been a question on the status of a modern gun of that general type.

Jim
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Old February 27, 2016, 12:51 AM   #12
briandg
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I would not suggest one to anyone that I know. I have numerous thoughts on this that just leave it with no credibility in my own assessment.

One of the most Important concerns is that you have one shot from something that isn't even identifiable as a handgun. No visual deterrent, and once that only shot is fired, the shooter is completely, totally helpless.

I really hate this idea. I just can't see I it successfully stopping attacker's.
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Old February 27, 2016, 01:00 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James K
I have to ask if the pistol passes muster with BATFE, which has frequently ruled that "things" that shoot but don't look like guns fall into the AOW category.*

I think a better approach for the handicapped would be something like a J-frame with a full grip trigger, something like the old Colt 1878 "Alaskan" (yes, I know). That would allow a person with weak hands to fire by "squeezing" the whole gun and it would be a 5/6 shot.

*The original palm pistols are antiques, so AFAIK there has never been a question on the status of a modern gun of that general type.

Jim
Jim, I was wondering this too, but when I went online to the webiste given in the OP, it actually links to a pdf copy of the ATF letter that states that it does meet the definition of "firearm" and "pistol"

That said, the letter also states the wepaon is to be chambered in 9x19, whereas the website and OP state that it is chambered in 38 special. I don't know how much difference that makes.

That said, I think it's a neat idea, but again it's a derringer more than anything else. Granted, it may be the most ergonomic and easy to fire derringer in the world, but comparing it to a J frame and a 9mm pistol might be an unfair comparasin.
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Old February 27, 2016, 03:40 AM   #14
hartcreek
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The Brain Injury Group of Washington just had our second shooting event a week ago. We had one person that had a rifle set up with a blow tube. The rest of us shot conventional firearms.

Your design is nothing new. What is new is single shot capability which is useless.

I would suggest that you look at the vintage style palm pistol and do a redesign.

http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx...ds=palm+pistol
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Old February 27, 2016, 07:47 AM   #15
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Quote:
Better than nothing!
"Nothing" is the lowest possible non-negative result. ANYTHING positive is better than nothing. "Better than nothing" is about the worst possible standard onto which to base an assessment of praise.

And, the problem of aiming, may make it worse than nothing, which I guess is something being assessed.

Interesting concept to give handicapped people a gun without sights or sighting mechanism to use for shooting in self defense. I am still trying to wrap my mind around how a person so disabled as to not be able to hold a normal gun would then have the ability to work this single shot pistol which appears to require use of many of the fingers to be able to fire.
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Old February 27, 2016, 08:17 AM   #16
RiponP90
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But does one not have to start somewhere? If nothing is the first step then something is better than nothing, and then redesign is better than something... So if you follow that logic "better than nothing" is a fair assessment for a first draft that hasn't been modified for feedback yet. Just saying...

By saying better than nothing I'm saying "good, someone is taking time to look at the needs of a specific demographic, now lets take that idea and make it better."
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Old February 27, 2016, 04:27 PM   #17
briandg
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It is nice that they decided to create " better than nothing," but there are already a lot of "better than nothing" items that are MUCH better than this. Mace, stun gun, super flashlight, even an air horn will be more effective than one shot that the attackers won't even notice unless one drops.

Let me explain "better than nothing."

Let's say that a person makes min I mum wage. For that matter, everyone needs more money. Where I toss a dime on the floor at a mall, as I sometimes do, nobody picks it up. Ill do that once in a while as I wait, and watch all of the people walk past "better than nothing."

I see people using this against some hardcore goon, and being badly injured or even killed. Spend the money learning other ways to avoid being hurt.better than nothing is feeding an airline bag of peanuts to the guy you just rescued from the desert. It's not going to kill him, but he's no better off than he was beforehand.

Once again, I HATE this idea. This is not a liberaror that was used in the worst case scenario against Nazi invaders. It is something that little old men will be carrying when people with bats accost him at the subway. Seriously, handing over your wallet and begging for your life is "better than nothing," and might even be better than using this thing.
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Old February 27, 2016, 04:30 PM   #18
RiponP90
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I'm just getting a kick out of how my opinion that it is better than nothing seems to have upset people lol. There are tons of options out there yes but that doesn't negate the fact that this is still an option whether it is the best out there or not

Also congratulations on generalizing that people with handicaps are all little old men. My wife has spina bifida and I would rather she have this than nothing if this was the only option or what she was comfortable with. But I do agree that there are better options out there at the moment. HOWEVER, that doesn't negate the fact that I will congratulate this group for what they are trying to do.
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Old February 27, 2016, 04:44 PM   #19
briandg
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Look, I agree with you. It is better than nothing. Assuming that your choices are to carry this, or carry nothing. All I'm saying is that this truly is better than going empty handed.. that isn't good enough. There are plenty of other options that are better than this. I'd ather give my 103 year old granny a canister of fart gas and a bigger battery for her wheel chair. Believe me, if a mugger thinks that my granny just loaded her diaper, he's unlikely to go through the pocket of her house coat.

Yep, that there is certainly better than nothing.
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Old February 27, 2016, 04:47 PM   #20
RiponP90
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Oh I agree, honestly a revolver design would be something to consider I think.
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Old February 27, 2016, 09:11 PM   #21
James K
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FWIW, the original palm pistols used a .32 Extra Short rimfire cartridge, made necessary by the design, which was loaded from the inside of the flat "cylinder". With a case length less than half that of the .32 S&W Long, it was not exactly the .454 of its day. But it fired seven rounds, not one.

See the excellent pictures at the link shown in #14. Mine is not quite as nice but is fully functional and only cost $700, a third of what they are asking.

My idea would be a more or less conventional revolver with a bracket extending forward from the butt and around to the frame below the barrel. A lever would be attached to that and to the trigger so that squeezing the lever with four fingers would pull the trigger in a DAO manner.

Jim
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Old February 27, 2016, 09:44 PM   #22
briandg
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There is no reason in the world that electronic primers couldn't be used. Plenty of ways to create safety systems. There is no damned reason that nearly any number of rounds couldn't be fit into a handgun once you eliminate the need force hammer, trigger, etc.

When you start thinking about really unconventional things, a wrap around design, blow back operated 32 or .380 is conceivable. We've already thrown away every convention. We could create a design that could it in the palm, fired electronically,, blowback slide, several passive and manual safety features, etc. It doesn't need to be as small as a deck of cards. It just has to fulfill the needs of a firearm that repeats, of being held and fired with weak hands, and be capable of using rounds that can damage an assailant.
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Old February 29, 2016, 04:20 AM   #23
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Electric ignition is a fun concept, however it is not easy to do, especially with smokeless. The size of the components is something to factor in, too. However, it is possible.

Here's one guy experimenting with it for the purpose of building a caseless electric ingition rifle:
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_...eignition.html
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Old February 29, 2016, 10:04 AM   #24
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And then, of course, there was Metal Storm, but their goal was military contracts more so than personal weapons and they went into bankruptcy, but all their weapons were electronically fired.
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Old February 29, 2016, 12:54 PM   #25
James K
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Electronic ignition is certainly possible, as Remington has already proved. High Standard had an "electric" trigger, but it did not use electric primers, it just used a solenoid to operate a normal sear. I tried one of those years ago and it is disconcerting as there is no sense of trigger pull at all. I had then some qualms about safety, but of course the force needed can be made hard or easy.

In fact, we have already done away with conventional ammo, firing wired darts using CO2 (hence not a firearm) and that could be one way to go.

There are many ideas out there, some of which might require a change in the law or BATFE regulations to implement, but such changes are certainly possible.

But I don't think a single shot pistol, whether a "palm pistol" or a derringer, is the answer.

Jim
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