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Old September 14, 2017, 08:32 PM   #51
dogtown tom
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Quote:
zukiphile
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogtown tom
But that isn't Nanuks claim.
He believes SBR's are specifically prohibited that "You cannot carry loaded, in your car a registered SBR in many places"
That is incorrect. The claim wasn't that a prohibition was specific to SBRs but that the legal treatment is more restrictive in some places than for a pistol. The latter clearly true. Repetitively asking for citation for the former isn't insightful.
No actually it WAS his claim in post #32:
Quote:
YNanuk: ou cannot carry loaded, in your car a registered SBR in many places, you cannot cross state lines with an SBR without prior written permission from BATFE which specifies where you are going and for what purpose. You do not need to do that with a pistol.
His claim was specific to SBR's and whether it's easier to transport a loaded pistol. Further his belief that one does not need "permission" to carry a pistol is clearly untrue. I know there are states that prohibit any form of SBR's.....but there are also states that prohibit carrying a pistol without the appropriate license/permit.


Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogtown tom
He started posting about his supposed ability to carry his AR pistol anywhere without permission and I told him why that wasn't true, now he's inventing laws about SBR's.
He actually claimed "I can legally carry a loaded pistol in many places I cannot a carbine or SBR."

See the difference?
No, his first claim was
Quote:
Nanuk: I can carry my AR pistol pretty much every where I go without asking anyone's permission.
Even with LEOSA that isn't true.


Bottom line is transporting an SBR interstate requires filing an ATF form once a year. No big deal.

Carrying an AR pistol? you'll need a license(s) with reciprocity and need to follow the concealed carry laws and open carry laws as I linked to above.
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Old September 14, 2017, 11:22 PM   #52
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Not on topic except for goofy rules but I always thought it was funny that a pistol couldn't be shipped USPS unless it was full auto, then that turned it from "pistol" to "machine gun" then it's OK to ship USPS....
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Old September 14, 2017, 11:29 PM   #53
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Bottom line is transporting an SBR interstate requires filing an ATF form once a year. No big deal.
As long as you go only one place with it each year, know the date(s), give them the reason why, tell them where from, where to and how. Also you have to notify them if life happens and your plans change. All if you submit the form(s) far enough in advance to get them approved. Then it isn't a big deal.
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Old September 15, 2017, 05:40 AM   #54
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Since I travel from state to state about once every 30-40 years, that aspect of NFA '34 wouldn't impact my life much, though for people who travel a lot, I can see that being a small problem.
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Old September 15, 2017, 08:00 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DT tom
But that isn't Nanuks claim.
He believes SBR's are specifically prohibited that "You cannot carry loaded, in your car a registered SBR in many places"
Quote:
Originally Posted by z
That is incorrect. The claim wasn't that a prohibition was specific to SBRs but that the legal treatment is more restrictive in some places than for a pistol. The latter clearly true. Repetitively asking for citation for the former isn't insightful.
No actually it WAS his claim in post #32:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanuk
you cannot carry loaded, in your car a registered SBR in many places, you cannot cross state lines with an SBR without prior written permission from BATFE which specifies where you are going and for what purpose. You do not need to do that with a pistol.
His claim was specific to SBR's and whether it's easier to transport a loaded pistol.
Emphasis added.

Follow the bolded portions above. An observation that the law of a state will treat an SBR as a rifle isn't a prohibition specific to SBRs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DT Tom
He started posting about his supposed ability to carry his AR pistol anywhere without permission and I told him why that wasn't true, now he's inventing laws about SBR's.
Quote:
He actually claimed "I can legally carry a loaded pistol in many places I cannot a carbine or SBR."

See the difference?
No, his first claim was

Quote:
Nanuk: I can carry my AR pistol pretty much every where I go without asking anyone's permission.
Emphasis added.

That you don't see a differences amongst the bolded illustrates the specific manner in which you've misunderstood Nanuk's assertion.

That you felt so strongly about your misreading that you had to post about three times in 15 minutes and maintain that Nanuk needed to provide citation for your misreading lends support to the idea that you sought to "bully [your] way through" a point rather than grasp it.



The silver lining from the colloquy is some greater clarity. In addition to the burdens of NFA regulation associated with an SBR, one would expect each state to treat it as a rifle rather than a pistol. Where state ccw laws are geared toward pistol carry, an item classified as a pistol may permit use with fewer restrictions.

I don't know if that means that the SBR concept is dying. I am not a student of that genre, but a real stock seems like one of the key advantages of a rifle.

Last edited by zukiphile; September 15, 2017 at 09:40 AM.
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Old September 15, 2017, 06:51 PM   #56
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Carrying an AR pistol? you'll need a license(s) with reciprocity and need to follow the concealed carry laws and open carry laws as I linked to above.
I never denied that. I said "ANYWHERE I GO".
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Old September 30, 2017, 10:04 AM   #57
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I have multiple braces and SBRs.. The only time a gun with a brace even leaves the safe is if I leave the state and didn't file a travel request...

I love the enthusiasm of them being the same but its night and day to me
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Old October 7, 2017, 08:58 AM   #58
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Quote:
I have multiple braces and SBRs.. The only time a gun with a brace even leaves the safe is if I leave the state and didn't file a travel request...
In your state can you legally carry a loaded rifle in your car?

Quote:
I love the enthusiasm of them being the same but its night and day to me
I do not think anyone said they were the same. I have maintained that there is not enough difference to get worked up over.
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Old October 10, 2017, 01:38 PM   #59
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I'll throw another one out there:

In North Carolina, one can not legally conceal a rifle or shotgun with or without a CCL (which is a Concealed Handgun Licence in NC BTW).

I can however legally conceal a loaded AR pistol. I can legally carry it concealed in a laptop case, backpack, etc. I can keep it out of sight, but within arms reach in a vehicle.

In NC, one can't legally do any of those things with an SBR.
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Old October 10, 2017, 07:09 PM   #60
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I think it is a dying concept for the reasons you outlined in the OP. However there will always be a group of guys that want to get the stamp, whether they are going for a correct build or want the added benefit of having an adjustable stock.
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Old October 15, 2017, 08:07 AM   #61
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What DMK said is also true in Ohio. A SBR is a "dangerous ordnance" per the O.R.C. and cannot be carried concealed. However a AR/AK/MP5/whatever pistol is a pistol, and can be concealed legally, provided you have a concealed handgun license.
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Old July 16, 2018, 02:05 PM   #62
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Here's the latest reason to further this argument haha I just got the new SB Tactical SBA3 adjustable pistol brace. Works just like a collapsible stock, except it doesn't go quite as far out as a normal stock.
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Old October 21, 2018, 12:22 AM   #63
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I like the newer options of the pistol braces. While I haven't SBR'd anything just yet, the braces really wet my appetite for an SBR. Additionally, I want to SBR my UZI for a more historically accurate (even with the wood stock) look, which just can't be done with the pistol brace. As many said, the pistol braces are simply easier to travel with and I travel across a state line for a range I frequent, so there is that.

SBR won't disappear (even if I would love to see that NFA process dropped), but the newer pistol brace rage may very well help speed up the processing time for an SBR!

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Old October 21, 2018, 01:11 AM   #64
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(Addressing 2018+ replies)
Run what you want, but the ATF still has a fickle mind.
I stopped masturba... Err... um... playing with "pistol braces" about four years ago. Dumb idea. Too much mystery and risk.

I, personally, have an SBR now. I don't have to play with stupid, overpriced 'braces' on "pistol" lowers.
I can run a full-blown, completely legit "rifle" lower, with all of its benefits, and not have to wonder what the ATF's opinion will be next week with my 10.5" .300 Blk upper, or the 14.5" .475 Tremor upper, or the 3.25" 5.56 upper.

I run what I want. I don't have to worry about changing opinion. ...Or short LOPs that make shooting a pretend SBR a pain in the butt (or nostril).



It took less than three months for my SBR stamp to come back. It ain't an 8+ month wait any more.
If you had filed back when you started this thread, you could have enjoyed completely legal SBR fun for QUITE some time, now. ...And probably saved money on the novelty 'braces'.
Stop being dumb. Get real. Get legal. File the Form 1.
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Old October 23, 2018, 11:49 AM   #65
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I am not dumb, fake or illegal. And I did not submit to the demands of a govt. agency to surrender a bunch of personal information. "Novelty braces"...are they sold near the whoopie cushions?
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Old October 23, 2018, 02:12 PM   #66
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Indeed, they are - in the 'overpriced junk' section of the toy department.


The government already has your information.
Google has even more.
Paranoia is a symptom of many diseases. You may want to see a doctor.
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Old October 23, 2018, 06:09 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by CalmerThanYou View Post
I am not... illegal.
Well, not this week, at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalmerThanYou View Post
"Novelty braces"...are they sold near the whoopie cushions?
No, they're sold next to the 5.11 Tactical pants in size 48x28.
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Old October 23, 2018, 07:12 PM   #68
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I do not know you Frank, but you seem to be awful bent about one of the few rulings of late(Opinions) that went in the American gun owners favor.
If they are not your thing that is cool. The fewer out there the less attention they may attract.
I suffer from no paranoid episodes. And I am far too polite to suggest what medical advice you may or may not need.
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Old October 23, 2018, 08:32 PM   #69
FrankenMauser
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It's an opinion.
You don't have to like it. You don't even have to read it.

But I do appreciate that you did take the time to read it.

Our opinions differ.
But we can still lead happy lives, even if we choose different paths.
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Old October 23, 2018, 09:53 PM   #70
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It took less than three months for my SBR stamp to come back. It ain't an 8+ month wait any more.
I don't know if you can say your 3 month wait is now typical. A friend of mine went the SBR route for his M1 Tommygun (semi auto) a couple years ago, and his wait was 10 months, almost to the day. Full auto is out, due to state laws, but he wanted his semi to look right.

He is now selling it, due to medical reasons, and last time I checked, he is up to 8 months waiting for ATF approval to SELL it (he has a buyer waiting).


I had a good time when the ATF decided that I could legally put the shoulder stock on my C96 Mauser. Until a little later when the ATF changed its mind, again, and only allowed ORIGINAL stocks, to be legal, no reproductions. Enjoy your "approved" pistol braces, while you can. The ATF can change their approval to disapproval at any time, and they have a history of doing so.
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Old October 24, 2018, 09:38 AM   #71
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I don't know if you can say your 3 month wait is now typical. A friend of mine went the SBR route for his M1 Tommygun (semi auto) a couple years ago, and his wait was 10 months, almost to the day. Full auto is out, due to state laws, but he wanted his semi to look right.

He is now selling it, due to medical reasons, and last time I checked, he is up to 8 months waiting for ATF approval to SELL it (he has a buyer waiting).
It seems to be a regional thing.
The states around me are down to historically "short" wait times on Form 1s.
The long wait to sell it... Yea, that fits right in with current wait times for Form 4s.

If your friend was in a hurry to sell it, the better option would have been to return it to regular 'rifle' (Title 1) configuration and sell it that way. Then the new owner could file their own Form 1 to re-SBR. The money works out the same, and the buyer has to wait either way. But the actual transfer of the firearm can take place very quickly.
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Old October 24, 2018, 12:02 PM   #72
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I had a good time when the ATF decided that I could legally put the shoulder stock on my C96 Mauser. Until a little later when the ATF changed its mind, again, and only allowed ORIGINAL stocks, to be legal, no reproductions. Enjoy your "approved" pistol braces, while you can. The ATF can change their approval to disapproval at any time, and they have a history of doing so.
This.
This.
This.

ATF Determination Letters are merely the current opinion of ATF's Technical Branch and represent their OPINION at this time. It isn't law, it isn't permission, it doesn't mean it's legal and valid forever.
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Old October 24, 2018, 03:09 PM   #73
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Old October 25, 2018, 06:40 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankenMauser
I stopped masturba... Err... um... playing with "pistol braces" about four years ago. Dumb idea. Too much mystery and risk.
Well, I agree the ATF is fickle, but pistol braces offer a pseudo-SBR for now and for those that move often (military), cross state lines often due to location, job, or family, and some locals are simply not very NFA-friendly.

I'm still "playing" with them If anything, they are quite persuasive to jump on the NFA wagon now that I'm retired from the .mil.

If anything the proliferation of braces (and suppressors) should start pushing the irrelevance of the NFA regarding short barrels and sound suppressors, but that's just my wishful thinking.

My first SBR will be to make my UZI more of an original (with the wood stock as well!).

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Old October 25, 2018, 11:18 AM   #75
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Something else that I have not seen brought up here, but is very important to the discussion:

INTENT.

The ATF has established, multiple times over, that intent to use something in a particular manner is enough to create an illegal NFA item. ('Constructive possession' is based largely upon this premise, as well. -Even though the intent might be a fictional construct of the ATF/FBI/etc.)

If you build a "pistol" and add an 'arm brace' with the intent to shoulder the 'arm brace' and use the pistol as an SBR, you are committing a felony act.
Just because, "the ATF isn't going after the YouTube guys," doesn't mean YOU (and they) aren't committing an illegal act by building a "pistol" with an 'arm brace' with the intent to build a 'sleeper SBR' and subvert the NFA.

A case, which I recently dug up for another discussion, that was later used as a precedent for others: United States vs Webb (1995)
(The above link is to a 1996 appeal.)

Webb was convicted of possession of unregistered firearms and firearms not identified by a serial number, based almost entirely on his intent to break the law by constructing a 'silencer' - not the actual material construction or viability of the devices.
Why is intent so important here? Because the devices in question were made of materials that the ATF admitted would not have been effective or survived actual use.
An except from the case files:
Quote:
(...) the defendant made two suppressors from “[o]ld toilet paper tubes and stuffing from some old stuffed animals.”
Webb's sentence was reduced, specifically because of the materials used. But he was convicted.

Note that the case also involved a, "Raven Arms .25 caliber semiautomatic pistol that had no serial number," but he was never even charged for that one. The ATF and Kansas Bureau of Investigation stood on the charges relating to the intent to use cardboard tube 'silencers' and got the conviction there.
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