Defensive ammo in a 1911?

[HiBC]

The modification for SWC''s is NOT to the frame feed ramp. It is about the bevel on the entrance to the chamber.

My 45 1911's will feed empty brass. I know,we don't use that in a gunfight.

But magazines ,extractor tension and configuration,and,while I'm not real impressed with "shiny",a smooth ramp,throat,and breech face are all factors.

In any case,youjust bought a new gun. The white box WW hardball ammo is cheap .A new gun needs for you to get familiar with it,and it needs for the parts to get used to each other.

Some say a 1911 needs a 500 rd break in. Regardless,shoot it till it goes at least a couple hundred without a jam. With hardball.

Self defense ammo is + or _ $1 a shot. Pick one and try it. Or pick three and compare,

But for myself,after a hardball break in, I'd want a minimum of 50 hiccup free
shots with whatever ammo I was going to carry.And that's pretty minimal

If you do a 500 rd break in and a 50 rd carry ammo qualification, its certainly due for a strip,clean and lube.

If you are armed with a RELIABLE 45 ACP loaded with hardball,you are armed.Thats pretty good.

You can punch holes.If you hit the right stuff,such as spine,its done..
Or it may take time for bleeding to incapacitate the bad guy.

Holes punched by expanding bullets will probably bleed more ,faster.

The sooner he bleeds out,the sooner he cannot shoot at you.Two or three seconds might save you from getting hit.

Whether gunstore clerk,internet (like us) you ultimately decide who to give credibility to.

[ocharry]

i use Winchester 230gr jacketed hollow point,,personal protection

50rnds/box,,,cycles and performs very well,,,,in fact the different brands i have tested and used (speer gold dot and federal hydra shock,,and others),,,and im no expert just what i have seen while testing side by side

the Winchester stuff performs just as well,,,expands every bit as good as the others i think,,,cost is about the same,,,but you get 50 rounds

just my take

im NO expert,,,but i have shot a few rounds

just my take,,,YMMV

ocharry

[tipoc]

It's been a long time that anyone has made a 1911, except perhaps an actual GI repro, that only feeds ball. And even then they often fed SWC and what little JHP there was pretty good in some cases.

A clerk who gives this advice either is butt ignorant or wants to upsell the potential buyer. As in: "1911s don't fed ball ammo well. Unless you're want to look at this $3500. Nighthawk custom. If you want reliability with a 1911 you have to go custom."

Two lies there.

tipoc

[gwpercle]

Test fire a few loads you think might be good ., if your 1911 likes it , feeds fires and ejects it 100% and you get acceptable accuracy ...use it .

The good thing about a 45 is its already .451 going in. Hollow points are not absolutely necessary. Something like a truncated cone with a good flat point will usually feed from most 1911's . The old day's of only round nose feeding reliably are over.
My old AMT Hardballer made in 1979 feeds Winchester Silvertip JHP and cast lead SWC ammo just fine.

Gary

[JERRYS.]

I know I'm in the minority here, in this caliber just about any standard velocity 230 h.p. from a full sized gun would be fine, even if you had to use fmj.

[Red Devil]

.45 ACP Federal HST 230 gr Ammo Gel Test

Red

[Nick_C_S]

I'm a revolver guy. But a 1911 is my nightstand gun (it's not literally in my nightstand). Revolvers are too loud and flashy (think 357 Magnum). And I find 1911's very comfortable to shoot. I have complete confidence in all three of mine. For the record, the one that gets nightstand duty is a Springfield mil-spec (I believe it's their bottom-of-the-line model and it's awesome).

In it is Hornady's 230g XTP+P's. They chronograph at 959 f/s through my gun. And that was a 40-round test sampling; so it was an expensive day at the range .

I've tried (extensively) Speer's Gold Dots - both 200's and 230's, but they tend to want to hang up and not cycle. A rare event; but way too common for defense use. Hornady's cycle perfectly - both 200's and 230's.

Why did I choose the heavier bullet? Three reasons:
1) heavier bullets are generally not as loud as their lighter counterparts.
2) I'm a member of the "you must first make a hole" mindset; so I tend toward heavier bullets for SD in general.
3) I live in a house (not an apartment with thin walls); so over-penetration is less of a concern.

But to refocus on the OP's question/concern: As T O'Heir stated, modern 1911's are designed to handle more than just "ball ammo" (an antiquated term). My first 1911 - purchased new in 1984; a Colt; tended to not like feeding anything but ball ammo (and jacketed round nose bullets really were called "ball ammo" back then - right on the box). That is, until I had the barrel and receiver feed ramps polished. A minor modification, as previously stated. A modification rarely, if ever, needed in modern 1911's.

[Rifletom]

Keeping with this thread, I looked over some of my range notes. I've handloaded some 200gr Hornady XTP JHP. These shot very good in my 1911. Don't know why I stopped those. Probably 'cause the older 230gr plated x-treme or the 230gr coated Missouri bullets are super accurate[especially Missouri] and affordable. I'm just a 230gr RN guy I guess.

[spacemanspiff]

I carry with either defensive or ball in my 1911. Feeds both just fine. And when you live in a state where the weather is cold enough that 8 months of the year everyone is wearing multiple layers of thick clothing, I don't really think that it will make a difference either way should the need arise where I have to use my gun.

[1MoreFord]

I'm not the norm with .45's. I don't like 230gr bullets. Too much muzzle flip for me. I've shot so many 200gr H&G 68 major PF loads that's my preference but I'll go down to 185gr stuff before going up to the 230gr loads. Since I don't practice as much as I need to these days my .45's are secondary carry to my 9mm's.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Ball will always feed better. If reliability is king use ball. Kills just fine.

[dahermit]

The associate is confused. Mind you, there's no such thing as "defensive" ammo. Any ammo, cast bullets included, is defensive.
"...to only be used with ball ammo..." That's just mythical nonsense. In the old days, that being about 30 or so years ago, 1911A1 style pistols didn't come out of the factory ready to feed SWC's easily. They do now. It's really just a slight modification to the feed ramp.
"...hard ball 230 grain load was known to knock a man down with one well placed hit..." That's mythical nonsense too. No pistol round will do that. Physics doesn't allow it.

There are three distinct styles of feed lips available on .45 ACP magazines to accommodate the different styles of bullets. They are Hard Ball, Wadcutter, and Hybrid. A person who shoots wadcutter style (or blunt nose) bullets in a magazine with standard round nose lips may(or may not) find he has a problem with feeding even if his feed ramp is modified to accommodate "defensive ammo".

[JJ45]

To the OP, IMO, If you can fire 500 rounds of ANY .45ACP/ Magazine combination through your 1911 without a malfunction then I would call it a gem of a defensive pistol....just as important with auto pistols, ESPECIALLY the 1911 platform, are reliable magazines.

[Fishbed77]

The hard ball 230 grain load was known to knock a man down with one well placed hit.

Utter nonsense. Why do people keep perpetuating this myth? It shows a lack of understanding of basic physics.

Newton's Third Law of Motion: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

If any round is powerful enough to knock a human-sized target down, it will knock down the human-sized shooter as well.

[Cheapshooter]

and the associate that was helping me advised me to not use defensive ammo in my 1911 because 1911 weren't made to use the flatter hollow point ammo and to only be used with ball ammo.

Did he also advise you that you don't even have to make a good, center mass shot. Hitting a 200 pound man in the pinky finger with a 45 will knock him off his feet?
Pick any good quality hollow point ammo, don't be cheap (from cheapshooter LOL) and run a couple boxes of it to make sure the gun functions 100% reliably e with it. If your gun is harsh new, first run at least 100 rounds of range ammo as a "shake down" If those 100 are 100% reliable, try your choice of carry ammo.
Some online ammo dealers will have the same ammo as gun shops and big box sporting goods stores in 50 rounds boxes selling for not much more that a 20 round box from brick and mortar places. Even with shipping it's a savings. There, that's more like cheapshooter.

[hdwhit]

I inherited my 1911 from my grandfather who carried it in World War II and Korea. It likes my SD loads (185 grain Hornday XTP) just fine.

Why the guy at your LGS told you that is a mystery to me, but I have learned over the years to do my own research about a product before buying it. I find even with that limited exposure to the product, I often am more aware of the gun, its capabilities and its foibles than many of the clerks behind the counter selling them.

[Red Devil]

Originally Posted by Fishbed77

Utter nonsense. Why do people keep perpetuating this myth? It shows a lack of understanding of basic physics.

Newton's Third Law of Motion: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

If any round is powerful enough to knock a human-sized target down, it will knock down the human-sized shooter as well.

Half the story.

Conservation of Momentum dictates recoil on both ends, assuming that the bullet speeds up from zero, and slows down to zero, at ~ the same rate.

For a 230 gr. bullet fired at 860 fps and striking a 180 lb man (with an upper body weight of 90 lbs) in the chest:

0.03286 lb(860 fps) = 90 lb(3-3/4 inches per second)

A shove.

IIRC - Energy is ~ that of getting hit in the chest by a fastball pitch.


Given that, and you replaced that shove or fastball pitch with a 7" KA-BAR knife strike to the chest?




Red

[RickB]

The hard ball 230 grain load was known to knock a man down with one well placed hit.

Utter nonsense. Why do people keep perpetuating this myth? It shows a lack of understanding of basic physics.

It's not always physics that determines who goes down with a single shot.
Plenty of people have been "knocked down" (out) with a peripheral hit from a .25, in what might be called an "Oh, God, I've been shot" stop.

There was an interesting article on "stopping power" a few years ago, and the guy decided to look past "one shot stops", because he saw incongruous statistics, such as .380 hardball having a higher stop percentage than .45 hardball, so he focused on incidents involving more than one shot, as he wanted to eliminate the stops that were not "ballistic" stops, and he found a much stronger correlation between bullet size and effectiveness in shootings involving more than one hit.
His conclusion was, the first hit might put someone down, or not, regardless of caliber or even hit location, but if you had to keep shooting to end it, the bigger the bullet, the better.

[FairWarning]

What an uninformed "sales clerk". Most any somewhat recent 1911 can feed popular self defense ammo. And 1911s wouldn't continue to sell like hotcakes if no one could use JHPs!!

When I was younger, I felt more inclined to give credibility to extreme prejudices and sometimes outright idiocy of macho man gun store "sales clerks". However, with time and also the rise of the internets, which allows us to see countless real tests and stories that go beyond the chalk board, I give them far less credit until they earn it these days.

OP should spend some quality time here:

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...c-tests/#45ACP

Luckygunner has provided a great service to the public by conducting these tests in a controlled manner and compling the reports with such professionalism.

You'll notice that some of the +P 185s do QUITE well, such as Barnes TAC-XPD and Remington Golden Saber. Neither of these are forum darlings, but the results speak for themselves. The 185 loads tend to provide lower felt recoil (because physics) even if they produce more muzzle energy, so they are a good choice for a 1911. I favor both of these for my 1911.

The very best defense loads in 45 still tend to be 230 gr, although they also give you a heavier push, slowing follow up shots. So it is up to you to go to the range and decide what matters most to you. For my soft-shooting HK USP 45 with recoil reduction system, I use either Win Ranger 230 T-Series or Federal HST. These are the champions of the current stable. I call this class of bullet Death Stars!!!

[darkgael]

Defensive ammo??? Sounds like another marketing tool.
Is there, then, “offensive” ammo?
About reliability....yes, you do need to know if and how well a particular type of ammo will work in your gun. Yes, you need to practice as much as you have time and money to do. Beyond that, reliability is a myth.
I have said this before: a firearm is a mechanical device. All mechanical devices will fail sooner or later. There is no way to tell when this failure will occur, only that it will. Shoot 500 trouble free rounds? The is no guarantee that the gun will not ftf on the 501st. In fact, the more trouble free rounds that I put through my gun, the closer I get to the one that does not work.
Every squeeze of the trigger is an act of faith.
Pete

[Mobuck]

According to some .45 fans, you shouldn't actually NEED AMMO. Just show the bad guy the muzzle and he'll either faint or run away leaving a trail of dribble from his pants leg.

[pete2]

Heck guys, 230 Ball will knock a man down with a hit anywhere, even on the little finger. Don't yall watch movies?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Don't use a 1911 in 45 ACP. It will tear your arm off.

I was told this by:

1. A very large Minnesote moose hunter
2. An army captain about 6' 3"

Both said they fired one and it damn near tore their arms off!

Couple of weekends ago, I fired about 100 WWB 230 gr rounds from a SW 1911Sc (scandium gun). Still looking for my arm. I'm only 5'6" and 70 years old, I wanted to keep that arm for another 10 years.

[tipoc]

Defensive ammo??? Sounds like another marketing tool.
Is there, then, “offensive” ammo?

The price of some ammo offends me mightily!

But, isn't the term "defensive ammo" just a variation of "Personal Defense" "Self Defense", ammo which many of the ammo makers use?

https://www.federalpremium.com/produ...drashok/p32hs1

http://www.gunsandammo.com/shoot101/...-defense-ammo/

It is a term that speaks to political correctness but ammo is made for various purposes, practice and drills, self defense, hunting, bullseye/target loads, etc.

tipoc

[Fla_dogman]

And blows up tanks too!!!

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