Potential new indoor range, yay! New rules, no-yay

armoredman · February 15, 2018, 01:29 AM

The very good local gun shop, (we have one good one, one chain one and one dump), let on that they are looking at building an indoor range in town sometime soon. I thought, yay, high desert summer temps might be able to shoot in AC, yay! Then he told me that all the brass that hit the floor would belong to him, and they would clean and sell it. As a reloader I just smiled and said, "Man I would have loved to try out your new range, but not with that rule."
I guess I'll just be sweating on the outdoor in July.

SonOfScubaDiver · February 15, 2018, 02:15 AM

Um, yeah, not a good rule. I think he will find that sorting all that brass and cleaning it will be a lot of work for not a lot of sales potential. How many of his customers are going to be reloaders in the first place, and how many will be willing to buy their own brass back from him? My guess is not very many.

The indoor range I go to has no problem whatsoever with me gathering up as much brass as I want. They don't care if it's from my guns or not. It's less for them to clean up, and even with those of us who do collect it, they still end up with buckets and buckets full of spent cases to get rid of.

UncleEd · February 15, 2018, 05:56 AM

If range is built, it won't happen.

And if it does, the occasional loss of brass
for indoor comfort in the summer is minimal.

If a good customer, probably something can
be worked out.

I suspect such a rule affects mostly .45 and
.40 (maybe) shooters.

As for a range trying to separate and clean brass,
that's mostly a fantasy. It is sold as bulk scrap.

Lohman446 · February 15, 2018, 07:38 AM

Around here I do not know of an indoor range that is not a "lost brass" range. Those stalls are rented by the half hour, on busy times it is busy, and having people scurrying around trying to collect brass would be an issue.

Maybe the rule would be relaxed in off-peak times if asked nicely? Busy ranges are talking tens of thousands of rounds of brass during peak days. If they are able to fill a slot during non-peak times they might be willing to forgo a few hundred rounds of brass.

**44 AMP** · February 15, 2018, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Then he told me that all the brass that hit the floor would belong to him,

At that point, I would have told him that rule just cost him a customer. And why. My brass doesn't become his brass just because it touches his floor, any more than my shoes become his shoes when I walk in the place, or my car become his car because I park in his lot.

At least, not until I abandon them, on his property. THEN he has a legal (and moral) claim, but not until then!

I MIGHT consider his range, and his rules, IF he deducted the value of my spent brass from the cost of the range rental.

I MIGHT consider his range, and ONLY shoot revolvers...

I absolutely would not consider his range if I am shooting one of my "wildcat" pistols were no commercially manufactured ammo is available. When I have spent some time (and time=money) trimming, forming and reaming brass to make cases, he can go pound sand if he thinks I am going to give them to him, and pay him for the privilege just because they land on his floor!

If I didn't reload, or all I shot was non-reloadable ammo, I probably wouldn't care much. He's welcome to all the rimfire cases and berdan primed cases, and even reloadable brass that I leave on his range. otherwise, its my property, and I'm not going to agree to just give it to him.

It's his place, and he can make whatever rules he wants there, I'm free to, and quite willing to go elsewhere.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 15, 2018, 12:56 PM

I'm with others. My brass is MY brass until I give it over to someone else. I guess I'm fortunate. The indoor range where I shoot allows us to shoot our own reloads (except in their rental guns, which I don't have a problem with), and we are allowed to retrieve our brass for reloading. In reality, few of his customers other than me reload, so he's not losing any significant amount of money on the brass I take home. To the extent possible, I buy powder and primers from him, so it works out.

He sells the brass that other shooters leave, but he doesn't clean it or sort it. He has a guy who comes in once every two or three weeks and buys it by the pound. The only sorting that gets done is that there are separate pails for aluminum and steel cases (and some customers are so lazy or so stupid they can't even get that right).

SIGSHR · February 15, 2018, 02:06 PM

I have seen that at some local ranges. Either shoot 22LR, revolvers, or have a good brass catcher.

fredvon4 · February 15, 2018, 02:14 PM

So don't let your brass hit HIS floor...all sorts of side of stall contraptions are possible

On the other hand I would just go have fun in the AC with my CZ75 9mm... I do not collect that cheap assed brass any way.... I shoot 300~900 rounds of 9mm per month several times a year... I reload but 9mm in bulk that MY pistol likes to too low cost for me to bother re-loading it

45 colt my other favorite has me scrambling all the time to gather MY brass..I would certainly lay down one of my old Army wool blankets in My rented stall...NONE of it would hit HIS floor....grin

UncleEd · February 15, 2018, 02:27 PM

A lot of times a range owner means it's his brass
when it comes to others shooting and leaving the
stuff on the floor and it's not for you to sweep it
up for yourself.

Too many of you fellas get too huffy over nothing
that hasn't happened, probably will not happen
and if it did happen could still be remedied.

FrankenMauser · February 15, 2018, 02:31 PM

I've dealt with two of those.
I picked up my brass, anyway. I didn't try to take more than was mine - just what belonged to me. That way, they didn't have extra 'ammunition' against me, if they got pissy about it.

And 'pissy' did happen. One of said ranges stopped my father and I in the middle of a session and told us that they would kick us out if we kept picking up our brass (coming from ammunition that we had to buy there). I politely informed the RO that I would leave as soon as I was done picking up my brass, and not come back. My father was MUCH more confrontational, but shared a similar message.
Neither of us returned.
The place went belly-up a few months later, citing lack of profitability of their range, due to declining civilian use and sudden lack of use by police departments.

Jim Watson · February 15, 2018, 02:36 PM

I pre-enrolled at a range under construction. I figured that if they wanted to make my brass a profit center, like SIGSHR said, I have .22s and revolvers. But they are actually quite reasonable as such places go; afraid of holsters but if you can keep them on the paper, they do not limit your rate of fire.

Amusing anecdote: Although one of the owners and some of the staff have military or LE experience, they were not acquainted with enthusiasts. One was watching a friend and I shooting such IDPA drills as we could get on a lane. We came off the range and he asked her "What kind of professionals ARE you?"

TXAZ · February 15, 2018, 02:43 PM

At the range, I seldom see people picking up brass, their own or others (except for the occasional kid that wants a souvenir.

spacemanspiff · February 15, 2018, 03:57 PM

I only gather up the 30'06 brass when I drag my Garand out with me.

I don't reload yet, but if and when I do start I won't need to buy brass.

FITASC · February 15, 2018, 04:08 PM

My suggestion would be to shoot revolvers during the heat of the summer and dump your empties in a bag where you're at.

Or shoot a lot of cheap steel and aluminum stuff and then let him have the fun of sorting through it all.

s3779m · February 15, 2018, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FITASC

My suggestion would be to shoot revolvers during the heat of the summer and dump your empties in a bag where you're at.

Or shoot a lot of cheap steel and aluminum stuff and then let him have the fun of sorting through it all.

Good answer, not sorting the brass from the steel will cut down on the bulk rate he gets from selling.

johnwilliamson062 · February 15, 2018, 06:42 PM

Many firearms will eject forward. Those that do not will ounce brass around such that some always goes forward of the line. Some people are really dumb. They will chase brass across the line. In one case someone dropped live rounds forward of their position on the line and, you guessed it, crawled over to retrieve them. There is no regular ceasefire at an indoor range.
I was at an outdoor range where a guy wanted to comb the grass for his brass each cease fire delaying everyone significantly.
This rule is normal, although not regularly enforced in my area.

Don't they sell brass that is not cleaned?
There are definitely people who will buy unsorted dirty brass and sort and clean it to resell.

I doubt they want your wildcat brass too badly.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 15, 2018, 09:25 PM

Quote:

I doubt they want your wildcat brass too badly.

You mean like the ubiquitous .357 Long Colt Magnum? (.45 Colt necked down to .357)

armoredman · February 16, 2018, 01:21 AM

Ouch.
I have to say this is the first I've dealt with this, and I worked an indoor range for a little over a year about 16 years ago. We had brooms available for customers to sweep brass back that went forward of the line IF they weren't stupid about it. We also had barrels and barrels of brass,(I counted 15 55 gallon barrels in the back room at one time), that we would roll out and if a customer asked, (a paying customer), we would gladly give over some plastic bags and let them fill up with whatever brass they felt like digging out of the barrel, but it was everything at once, aluminum, steel, etc. "You pays you money, you takes you chances." if I had been a reloader back then, I would have brought a couple of barrels home with me.
The one that gets me is my work range, where we meticulously account for every single spent brass, packaged up neat and driven under armed guard to...the dump. I kid thee not. 9mm, 223 and 308. Was told if I tried to follow them I'd be fired.

The whole thing was it was a shame to hear this from the guys I like to go see - they run a great CCW class out of the store and use a local range for the firing portions. They used to use the free public range I love, but they got irked when people would slide in early and take the 80 yard line for their own fun.

Cirdan · February 16, 2018, 01:38 AM

The indoor range I belong to is owned by a reloading company, so they keep all the brass. They also sell their product at a decent price.

**JohnKSa** · February 16, 2018, 01:49 AM

Quote:

The one that gets me is my work range, where we meticulously account for every single spent brass, packaged up neat and driven under armed guard to...the dump. I kid thee not. 9mm, 223 and 308.

That's a whole lotta stupid going on right there. Even if they sold it as scrap metal it would bring a decent amount of money.

Quote:

...all the brass that hit the floor would belong to him...

Yup, that's the way it goes sometimes. Some indoor ranges figure brass sales in as part of their business model.

Prof Young · February 16, 2018, 02:26 AM

The range I shoot, Ramparts in Pochantous IL, has no rules about brass save for sweep it up when you are done. You can take it home or dump it in the brass pail. They do sort and bag some but a lot goes to the metal recycler. You don't have to buy and shoot their ammo only but you do have to buy and shoot at their targets. I think it is one of their one concessions to making some $$, and who knows what kind of weird stuff people would bring in as targets. The range time is $16 an hour. Half that for kids, military and LEO. They have a ladies night, offer classes, sell ammo, reloading supplies, freeze dried food, jewelry, wide variety of shooting supplies. You can rent guns and eyes and ears if you forget them. If you don't feel like shooting there is always a coffee pot on and a TV hanging on the wall. They have a yearly rate and a life time member rate. I'm a life time member and go about twice a week. Being an LT gets me ten percent discount on ammo and six times a year I can bring a guest who shoots for free. And they have given me some great deals on gun purchases.
Life is good.
Prof Young

armoredman · February 16, 2018, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnkSa

That's a whole lotta stupid going on right there. Even if they sold it as scrap metal it would bring a decent amount of money.

I have mentioned it many times, to deaf ears....

**Mike Irwin** · February 16, 2018, 07:05 AM

I wouldn't shoot at such a place.

I have heard of ranges that claim they own your brass once you pull the trigger, even on revolvers.

I shoot rounds like .32-20, .44 Special, .41 Magnum, and .45 Long Colt.

NFW am I going to surrender that brass.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 16, 2018, 07:35 AM

https://www.brownells.com/shooting-a...prod81549.aspx

Lohman446 · February 16, 2018, 07:45 AM

If you are shooting a "common" round like 9MM or .40 what is the value of fired brass anyways?

I get your concern if you are shooting some hard to find or uncommon cartridge that is a reloaders special and I would be willing to bet, for those instances, exceptions could be made. I would not want everyone on a range trying to police their own brass - it would just add one more element of chaos to things. The person who shoots something odd - don't care.

In the end the range has to be profitable to whatever level the owners have set as acceptable and they have to get there either through higher costs or cost recovery (such as recycling).

February 15, 2018, 01:29 AM	#1
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,297	Potential new indoor range, yay! New rules, no-yay The very good local gun shop, (we have one good one, one chain one and one dump), let on that they are looking at building an indoor range in town sometime soon. I thought, yay, high desert summer temps might be able to shoot in AC, yay! Then he told me that all the brass that hit the floor would belong to him, and they would clean and sell it. As a reloader I just smiled and said, "Man I would have loved to try out your new range, but not with that rule." I guess I'll just be sweating on the outdoor in July.

February 15, 2018, 02:31 PM	#10
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	I've dealt with two of those. I picked up my brass, anyway. I didn't try to take more than was mine - just what belonged to me. That way, they didn't have extra 'ammunition' against me, if they got pissy about it. And 'pissy' did happen. One of said ranges stopped my father and I in the middle of a session and told us that they would kick us out if we kept picking up our brass (coming from ammunition that we had to buy there). I politely informed the RO that I would leave as soon as I was done picking up my brass, and not come back. My father was MUCH more confrontational, but shared a similar message. Neither of us returned. The place went belly-up a few months later, citing lack of profitability of their range, due to declining civilian use and sudden lack of use by police departments. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

February 15, 2018, 02:43 PM	#12
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	At the range, I seldom see people picking up brass, their own or others (except for the occasional kid that wants a souvenir. __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

February 15, 2018, 03:57 PM	#13
spacemanspiff Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2002 Location: alaska Posts: 3,498	I only gather up the 30'06 brass when I drag my Garand out with me. I don't reload yet, but if and when I do start I won't need to buy brass. __________________ "Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard

February 15, 2018, 04:08 PM	#14
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,440	My suggestion would be to shoot revolvers during the heat of the summer and dump your empties in a bag where you're at. Or shoot a lot of cheap steel and aluminum stuff and then let him have the fun of sorting through it all. __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

February 15, 2018, 02:15 AM	#2
SonOfScubaDiver Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2017 Posts: 391	Um, yeah, not a good rule. I think he will find that sorting all that brass and cleaning it will be a lot of work for not a lot of sales potential. How many of his customers are going to be reloaders in the first place, and how many will be willing to buy their own brass back from him? My guess is not very many. The indoor range I go to has no problem whatsoever with me gathering up as much brass as I want. They don't care if it's from my guns or not. It's less for them to clean up, and even with those of us who do collect it, they still end up with buckets and buckets full of spent cases to get rid of.

February 15, 2018, 05:56 AM	#3
UncleEd Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2013 Location: N. Georgia Posts: 1,150	If range is built, it won't happen. And if it does, the occasional loss of brass for indoor comfort in the summer is minimal. If a good customer, probably something can be worked out. I suspect such a rule affects mostly .45 and .40 (maybe) shooters. As for a range trying to separate and clean brass, that's mostly a fantasy. It is sold as bulk scrap.

February 15, 2018, 07:38 AM	#4
Lohman446 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2016 Posts: 2,192	Around here I do not know of an indoor range that is not a "lost brass" range. Those stalls are rented by the half hour, on busy times it is busy, and having people scurrying around trying to collect brass would be an issue. Maybe the rule would be relaxed in off-peak times if asked nicely? Busy ranges are talking tens of thousands of rounds of brass during peak days. If they are able to fill a slot during non-peak times they might be willing to forgo a few hundred rounds of brass.

February 15, 2018, 12:56 PM	#6
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,458	I'm with others. My brass is MY brass until I give it over to someone else. I guess I'm fortunate. The indoor range where I shoot allows us to shoot our own reloads (except in their rental guns, which I don't have a problem with), and we are allowed to retrieve our brass for reloading. In reality, few of his customers other than me reload, so he's not losing any significant amount of money on the brass I take home. To the extent possible, I buy powder and primers from him, so it works out. He sells the brass that other shooters leave, but he doesn't clean it or sort it. He has a guy who comes in once every two or three weeks and buys it by the pound. The only sorting that gets done is that there are separate pails for aluminum and steel cases (and some customers are so lazy or so stupid they can't even get that right).

February 15, 2018, 02:06 PM	#7
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	I have seen that at some local ranges. Either shoot 22LR, revolvers, or have a good brass catcher.

February 15, 2018, 02:14 PM	#8
fredvon4 Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2010 Location: Lampasas Texas Posts: 154	So don't let your brass hit HIS floor...all sorts of side of stall contraptions are possible On the other hand I would just go have fun in the AC with my CZ75 9mm... I do not collect that cheap assed brass any way.... I shoot 300~900 rounds of 9mm per month several times a year... I reload but 9mm in bulk that MY pistol likes to too low cost for me to bother re-loading it 45 colt my other favorite has me scrambling all the time to gather MY brass..I would certainly lay down one of my old Army wool blankets in My rented stall...NONE of it would hit HIS floor....grin

February 15, 2018, 02:27 PM	#9
UncleEd Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2013 Location: N. Georgia Posts: 1,150	A lot of times a range owner means it's his brass when it comes to others shooting and leaving the stuff on the floor and it's not for you to sweep it up for yourself. Too many of you fellas get too huffy over nothing that hasn't happened, probably will not happen and if it did happen could still be remedied.

February 15, 2018, 02:36 PM	#11
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	I pre-enrolled at a range under construction. I figured that if they wanted to make my brass a profit center, like SIGSHR said, I have .22s and revolvers. But they are actually quite reasonable as such places go; afraid of holsters but if you can keep them on the paper, they do not limit your rate of fire. Amusing anecdote: Although one of the owners and some of the staff have military or LE experience, they were not acquainted with enthusiasts. One was watching a friend and I shooting such IDPA drills as we could get on a lane. We came off the range and he asked her "What kind of professionals ARE you?"

February 15, 2018, 06:42 PM	#16
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	Many firearms will eject forward. Those that do not will ounce brass around such that some always goes forward of the line. Some people are really dumb. They will chase brass across the line. In one case someone dropped live rounds forward of their position on the line and, you guessed it, crawled over to retrieve them. There is no regular ceasefire at an indoor range. I was at an outdoor range where a guy wanted to comb the grass for his brass each cease fire delaying everyone significantly. This rule is normal, although not regularly enforced in my area. Don't they sell brass that is not cleaned? There are definitely people who will buy unsorted dirty brass and sort and clean it to resell. I doubt they want your wildcat brass too badly.

February 16, 2018, 01:21 AM	#18
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,297	Ouch. I have to say this is the first I've dealt with this, and I worked an indoor range for a little over a year about 16 years ago. We had brooms available for customers to sweep brass back that went forward of the line IF they weren't stupid about it. We also had barrels and barrels of brass,(I counted 15 55 gallon barrels in the back room at one time), that we would roll out and if a customer asked, (a paying customer), we would gladly give over some plastic bags and let them fill up with whatever brass they felt like digging out of the barrel, but it was everything at once, aluminum, steel, etc. "You pays you money, you takes you chances." if I had been a reloader back then, I would have brought a couple of barrels home with me. The one that gets me is my work range, where we meticulously account for every single spent brass, packaged up neat and driven under armed guard to...the dump. I kid thee not. 9mm, 223 and 308. Was told if I tried to follow them I'd be fired. The whole thing was it was a shame to hear this from the guys I like to go see - they run a great CCW class out of the store and use a local range for the firing portions. They used to use the free public range I love, but they got irked when people would slide in early and take the 80 yard line for their own fun. Last edited by armoredman; February 16, 2018 at 03:43 AM.

February 16, 2018, 01:38 AM	#19
Cirdan Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2013 Location: Tahoe Posts: 363	The indoor range I belong to is owned by a reloading company, so they keep all the brass. They also sell their product at a decent price.

February 16, 2018, 02:26 AM	#21
Prof Young Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2007 Location: Illinois - down state Posts: 2,403	Maybe we need a range thread . . . maybe this is it!!! The range I shoot, Ramparts in Pochantous IL, has no rules about brass save for sweep it up when you are done. You can take it home or dump it in the brass pail. They do sort and bag some but a lot goes to the metal recycler. You don't have to buy and shoot their ammo only but you do have to buy and shoot at their targets. I think it is one of their one concessions to making some $$, and who knows what kind of weird stuff people would bring in as targets. The range time is $16 an hour. Half that for kids, military and LEO. They have a ladies night, offer classes, sell ammo, reloading supplies, freeze dried food, jewelry, wide variety of shooting supplies. You can rent guns and eyes and ears if you forget them. If you don't feel like shooting there is always a coffee pot on and a TV hanging on the wall. They have a yearly rate and a life time member rate. I'm a life time member and go about twice a week. Being an LT gets me ten percent discount on ammo and six times a year I can bring a guest who shoots for free. And they have given me some great deals on gun purchases. Life is good. Prof Young

February 16, 2018, 07:05 AM	#23
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	I wouldn't shoot at such a place. I have heard of ranges that claim they own your brass once you pull the trigger, even on revolvers. I shoot rounds like .32-20, .44 Special, .41 Magnum, and .45 Long Colt. NFW am I going to surrender that brass. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 16, 2018, 07:35 AM	#24
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,458	https://www.brownells.com/shooting-a...prod81549.aspx

February 16, 2018, 07:45 AM	#25
Lohman446 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2016 Posts: 2,192	If you are shooting a "common" round like 9MM or .40 what is the value of fired brass anyways? I get your concern if you are shooting some hard to find or uncommon cartridge that is a reloaders special and I would be willing to bet, for those instances, exceptions could be made. I would not want everyone on a range trying to police their own brass - it would just add one more element of chaos to things. The person who shoots something odd - don't care. In the end the range has to be profitable to whatever level the owners have set as acceptable and they have to get there either through higher costs or cost recovery (such as recycling).

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