Fixed power rifle scope

[tangolima]

Thinking about getting one. Question is how much magnification I should get. I heard our military snipers used to have fixed 10x. They could hit torso sized target out 800yd. But I'm kinda old, so 12x reasonable?

I mostly shoot at paper and steel targets. To be able to hit torso target at 1000yd with no more than 2 cold bore shots is my current goal. Not going to pile thousands of dollars on equipment for that. I don't hunt, but wouldn't rule out hunting boars in the future. 6x, 10x, 12x, 16x, 20x are the options available.

Thanks for your inputs.

-TL

PS. I have been practicing for the goal. My current level is 500yd - 600yd. I fire one cold bore shot. If I miss I get to fire another shot without waiting. If I still miss, I fail the attempt. I wait 10 to 15 min (go shoot other guns) before I take another attempt. I have to score a hit before I promote to target at longer distance. Starting from 300yd with 50yd increments, till I exhaust 20yd, the game can easily last for hours.

PPS. My torso sized target is 18"x20" rectangle.

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[ligonierbill]

I have several Leupold FX3 6X scopes on hunting rifles. It is a good compact scope, but you probably need more magnification. Several makers sell dedicated target scopes, including Leupold (24X I think). Unless you want to try a used vintage scope, your options are limited. Everyone wants a variable. Of course, nothing stopping you from buying a variable and leaving it on your chosen magnification.

[G.O. West]

For hunting "field of view" is important. For targets, it's not much of a factor. That's why variables are popular if you both hunt and target.
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“A gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears.” King George V said circa 1920 in reference to the modern shotgun.

[HiBC]

I'm going to tell you of a scope I have never even looked though but if I was scoping a budget long range I'd look into it.

Its the SWFA Super Sniper 10x.

The legend is the SEALS put out a requirement /specs for a 10X scope and Tasco got the bid. Many folks(including SEALS) by reputation would not select a Tasco to go to war. Fair enough,but Tasco was serving the discount store cheapo market to build that rep.
Apparently when serving a military contract they CAN build a decent scope.

Anyway, the SEALS said "No,take them off" and then bought S+B or whatever.

Which left a supply of scopes SWFA has been selling. From what I have heard,folks who buy them like them.

As I said, I have never looked through one. I do not know price or availability

Leupold may still make a fixed 12x. Its a 1 inch tube . When I was considering one the Custom Shop offered options like target turrets,and reticles.

[tangolima]

swfa ss is indeed the scope I'm contemplating. I'm leaning towards 12x to give me a bit more bias towards the kind of shooting I'm doing. 10x should do too. I have been using 3-9x till eyesight started to turn south on me.

-TL

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[44 AMP]

I heard our military snipers used to have fixed 10x. They could hit torso sized target out 800yd.

Consider this, modern military snipers work in teams. One shoot, one spotter (sometimes they switch off) and they are shooting at people who aren't usually moving much or fast. SO, a higher power scope isn't the same kind of drawback it is when hunting game animals.

Also consider that the higher the magnification, the more it magnifies everything. Everything. Haze, heat shimmer, your heartbeat, breathing, the nearly imperceptible movement of your body when you squeeze the trigger, everything. Recoil too. (movement of the crosshairs off the target during recoil)

Had an old Weaver K8 with "fine crosswires" on my first .22-250. Worked GREAT for everything I was shooting with a .22-250. Would have been virtually useless in the deer woods. (or shooting offhand)

I've used scopes with top ends of 18x and 24x, and found that I actually shot them better dialed down to 9x.

If you're shooting from a solid rest, at targets that don't move and at known distances, a high power fixed power scope will serve well. If you're doing anything else, it has downsides compared to variables.

[tangolima]

I just looked it up. FOV for 10x is 13' @100yd. It will go down to 10' ish for 12x. I think it will work. 12x it is. Just to give me a bit more help to my aging eye.

Thanks guys.

-TL

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[HiBC]

I had aging eyes, Cataracts, Medicare covered nearly all of surgery. I got my eyes fixed. (Probably as cheap as a 10x SS scope!)

It might be worth seeing an eye doctor.

[Recycled bullet]

I wish I had access to shooting ranges like y'all have. If it's on your own land that is truly blessed.

I shot/tested self cast handloads from a black hawk 357 and 300 blackout ranch rifle at twenty one yards tonight. That's as far as the range went

The rifle has a fixed 1x holosun green dot sight and the black hawk is big irons.

[tangolima]

No surgeries are needed yet. I have short sightedness and astigmatism, so I lost clarity on distant objects. With aging eyes adding on top, my "dynamic range" is further reduced to a short span, not too close and not too far, even with transition lenses. Actually what I've really lost is sensitivity to light. Can't see much in dim light.

Other than my in-born cheapness, reason to consider fixed power scope is its brightness. The reduced optical mechanism makes higher light transmission. The scope is made in Japan. It is a big factor.

-TL

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[bamaranger]

I dabbled in F class -T/R matches for a about 3 years, shooting mostly mid range to 600yds, with a couple of 1000yd shoots with a heavy barrel .308 bolt rifle before I got out of it. The first year I shot only to 600 yds on "across the course shoots" and used the gear I had on hand. That included an old Weaver K-12x.

The old Weave 12x r did OK, soldiering on through 150+ rds over the course of the weekends , the adjustments staying true for my comeups and good enough for a newbie. The 10 -ring was 1 MOA, at 600 yds of course, 6 inches. The "black" was a whopping 36".....3 ft. it was pretty easy to center the 3 ft bull with the 12x and let fly. It was not so easy to hold precisely on the 1/2 MOA 3" X-ring. I upgraded to a 6-24X and my 600 yd scores jumped noticeably. I shot the 6-24x at my 1000 yd shoots, always cranked all the way up.....24X. The 1000 yd black was 30".

I learned several things: 1) I was not as good a shot at distance as I thought I would be, 2) Match shooting was expensive, even then, and 3) My wind reading ability was pitiful, and 4) you could buy some improvement with better gear to a point you caught up with your ability or inability in my case.

[bamaranger]

So I ended the prior post prematurely. All that to say, that to get to 1000 yd
on what amounts to about a 2MOA target, I would want a minimum of 16x. My old Weaver worked to 600 yds on a 6MOA black, but I was definitely at a disadvantage.


On the F-TR firing lines, many of the 1000 yd rifles were running 24x PLUS magnification, on a 3MOA black, the limit only being how much mirage was effecting the target image. On a cool day, those big variable scopes were cranked WAY up.

[tangolima]

Thanks for the input. It definitely gives me a solid data point.

I haven't attempted 1000yd for real. I reckon, with 12x magnification, it is equivalent to a target placed at 85yd. I should be able to hit it with iron sight. Of course it is way harder in reality. I think it is not really about magnification, but rather it is the other factors, such as reading the wind, fighting the mirage, ability to fire the shot etc. I will find out eventually. I know people spending a fortune on equipment. The scope they have costs more than 10 times of what I can bear. I have no match to win but a record to break; my own record to get as close as I can with whatever I can afford.

I have watched extreme long range competitions where they walk multiple shots into a target big as a car. Not into those. It is the first 2 cold bore shots that counts.

-TL

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[HiBC]

I'm not a Veteran or a Sniper,even on TV. My understanding,which could be wrong, is that a USGI Sniper with a 10x scope was expected to be able to hit 15 inch steel square at 1000 yds.

I think a quality 10x will do it. Quality optics are as much an asset as magnification. I had an Israel surplus 6x by 42 mm that punched way over its weight. Consider exit pupil size. Depending on light,your eyes may be 2mm to 7mm. If your eye pupil is 4mm, a 10x by 40 mm scope will be good. It too,has a 4mm exit pupil. A 20x scope with a 40 mm obj will have a 2mm exit pupil which is a bottleneck. You might not "see better" at 20x.

I have a Kowa Proimar 77 mm obj spotting scope with a 20-60 zoom eyepiece.

Generally, I gain nothing by going over 45 X . I see the same bullet holes.

Those who compete will disagree,but I have owned 3 different 4,5-14x scopes,from 40mm to 50 mm . At the 1100 yd spot where I shot, I had adequate magnification to hold on a 8 in target. or so. Or a milk jug. If your reticle stadia are 1/2 MOA,they will cover approx 5 in at 1000 yds.

So,yes! I can see how F-class (which I have never done) might benefit from 20x or 24 x. But if the target was a coyote 14x would do,IMO.

[zeke]

Went the route of SWFA for shooting and imo they are excellent scopes for the money. Our range is only 600 yds, so have not tried them to 1000 yds. Prefer the 12x for the reticle divisions, but this was more than a couple of years ago. For my purposes, the best part of the scopes were the repeatability/dependability of the turret adjustments (tracking). The disadvantage of them are the glass quality, especially in poorer light.

The ones owned are pretty heavy duty, but have upgraded to mid priced Viper PST's.

edited for all the scopes being used are mil-mil. Looked at their website and the 10x is now offered in what they call the "mil quad" reticle. The one graduated to .5 mil divisions on the reticle.

[Jim Watson]

Like bamaranger, I started with what was on hand. (We were drawn into F class by the same mutual acquaintance, who is a fine LR shooter.)

I soon concluded that 10X was not enough and splurged on an 8-24X variable.
I kept increasing the power as I gained experience but never did max it out; 18-22X depending on light and wind was plenty for me.

So for THAT application, a 20X fixed power scope would be my choice.
Maybe a bit less for your project, consider 16X.

That is the problem, picking a fixed power is a bit of a guessing game to get lower cost and simpler mechanics.

As an aside, your man size target better duck fast at 500 yards if somebody comes along with a .40-65 or .45-70 BPCR mounting tang and globe iron sights.

[tangolima]

Exit pupil is interesting. I mostly forgot about it. Exit pupil matching eye pupil is the best. Increasing magnification further leads to exit pupil smaller than eye pupil. The brightness remains the same and the FOV starts to shrink by a blurry circle, a phenomenon called vignetting. It is distracting but ok for looking at target, I think.

Old people tend to have smaller eye pupil. As per wikipedia my expected pupil size is 3.1-3.6mm in the light condition that I shoot. 12x indeed would be the best fit for me. There may be slight vignetting towards late afternoon, which will go away when I get older.

-TL

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[44 AMP]

I'm a big fan of fixed LOW power scopes, but then, I'm not trying to hit a torso size target at 500yds+...

Never quite understood the idea of "saving money" on something you're only going to buy once. Now, I'm not in the camp of those who think the scope should cost as much as the rifle, by any means, just don't see how a relatively small cost saving justifies a less than optimal product on something that essentially doesn't wear out, and is expected to be a one time purchase, but, that's just me.

I prefer the versatility of a variable scope the way I want adjustable sights. Even if I never change the setting, I want the ability to easily do so, if I ever have the need.

[NHSHOOTER]

I have a weaver fixed 25x with fine wire crosshairs, my range only goes out to 200 but you can pick put Lincolns head on a penny even at 200, it wasnt expensive either..

[Rimfire5]

tangolima,

I will turn 80 in July, so I thank you for the information about exit pupil's and aging.

I generally shoot from a bench with a F-Class bipod and a Protektor rear rest.
I have been using 36x fixed power scopes for several years.
I have 4 Weaver T-36s that I use on my .22LR match rifles. The target turrets are great when I move from 50 to 100 yards.

I have 4 Sightron 36X fixed power scopes several of my centerfire rifles and the Sightron's are slightly brighter than the Weavers.

During the last few years, I moved to NightForce 8-32x56mm Benchrest scopes with my best performing target rifles. They are brighter, clearer and almost parallax free.
My groups sizes have reduced by from 7 to 17%, depending on the caliber of the rifle.

Years ago, when I was teaching my grandkids to shoot 22LR rifles, I found that they initially had problems finding the scope image with 24 power scopes, so I adjusted the power down to 8X and they immediately found the image.
After about 20 rounds, I adjusted up to 12 power and they could easily find the optical plane and liked the larger image.
I finally got them to 24X by the end of their first session. They both got very comfortable shooting pretty small groups.

Once they knew what they were looking for, they seemed to just position the rifle and were set up with a clear image.
The smaller exit pupil size makes it more important to learn how to get centered in the optical plane of the image, but once you get used to it, the "Aim Small, Hit Small" approach really increases your accuracy up to a point.

Years ago, I tested different scope powers to see if it made a difference.
Increasing power from 9X to 15X made a significant difference for me, from 15X to 24X made about half again as much improvement, and from 24X to 36X made a very small improvement, if any.
However, I found that at 100 yards, a 36X scope with a target reticle lets me get my aim point within less than 1/10 of an inch.
For me, that allows me to minimize my "shooter induced variation" because I can be sure that I am precisely on my aim point every time.
Of course, I have my POI slightly above my aim point so I can keep my aim point from being hit and becoming a caliber sized hole.
Works for me.

[tangolima]

I think high scope power and small moa per click is important for shooting small targets at short ranges. Silhouette shooting is the game. However I found high scope power makes the image jittery. I prefer low magnification if possible. In the type of shooting I am doing, it is either a hit or a miss. No extra point to hit the bullseye.

-TL

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[Rimfire5]

tangolima,

Even at almost 80, I can keep a 36X scope solid and steady on my aim point if I have a solid rest and take care in my set up.

But if I muscle the stock or have my cheek weld too tight on the stock, I see all kinds of motion, mostly my heartbeat and the shake from my less than steady muscles.

[HiBC]

What our eyes interpret is the light reflected off a target 1000 yds away after it travels through 1000 yds of air.

If you have an abundance of light, your eye pupil may choke down to 2 mm.

Under that circumstance, With a 40 mm objective and a 10X ,the optics focus the light to a 4 mm dot . The scope can deliver all you can use with your eye constricted to 2 mm.(in theory.)
"Exit Pupil" is not a washer you are peeking through. Its the "dot" of light the optics focus the light that goes through the objective lens. That light gets bent and focused down to a "Dot" Thats exit pupil.

With a 20 X scope and a 40 mm objective on a bright day when your pupil is 2mm, you still have adequate light.(Scope has a 2mm exit pupil)

If its a little cloudy and your eye pupil is 4 mm, he 2mm exit pupil is a bottleneck and you may not have sufficient light reflected off that 1000 yd target to resolve adequately.

An advantage to a variable is that actually the exit pupil is variable. Decreasing the magnification will increase the exit pupil and give your eye more light. You might see the target better at 12 X than at 20 X

With a variable you can adapt to varying light conditions.

A larger objective will collect more light. At 10x, a 50mm objective will have a 5 mm exit pupil and a 40 mm objective will have a 4 mm exit pupil.

If you do the " pi r squared" math its quite a bit more area/light.

When choosing a fixed power, I would balance the objective size with the magnification to coincide with my "best guess" as to what my eye pupil might measure under the light conditions. "Sunny day" target shooting only might allow more ,magnification. My hunting 6X by 42 mm Leupold has a 7 mm exit pupil. Its as good as it gets for a low light scope.

Note on spotting scopes, a 60 mm objective scope will often be fitted with a 15 x or at most 20 x eyepiece. Generally those will "see" the target best. My 77 mm fluorite crystal objective Kowa gains little to nothing over about 45 X in typical light.
For a fixed 20X I might want a 50 mm objective rifle scope . I'd still need decent daylight to use it effectively.

Spec out your reticle . Find out the MOA width of the stadia. A 1/4 MOA stadia wire will cover a 2.5 in aiming point at 1000 yds. A 1/2 MOA will cover 5 in at 1000 yds. That might matter to you.

[jmr40]

I had a couple of the SWFA scopes. Mine were 6X and I was able to shoot some 4-6" groups with them at 600 yards. They have very fine crosshairs and are a darn good scope for the money. I sold them because for what I do most of the time they were simply too large and heavy. But they are an excellent entry level scope for target shooting.

But everything I've read/witnessed says the 6X or 10X is the sweet spot. The more magnification you go with, you really need a better-quality scope. I've not tried a 12X and it may still be OK. But a friend had a 20X and it wasn't in the same league as my 6X's when it came to clarity.

Exit pupil shouldn't be a concern on a target scope. Those have 42mm objectives and should be OK in any legal hunting situation right up to dark with 10X. Above 10X and you may have some issues right at dark. But most people aren't shooting at paper in the dark.

To figure exit pupil simply divide objective size by the magnification. 42mm/ 10X= 4.2mm exit pupil. I like for my hunting scopes to be 5mm+, but 4.2 is close enough for most situations. A 42mm/12X is only 3.5mm and is getting pretty small.

[taylorce1]

I have a couple SWFA SS 6X fixed power scopes. I one one on a Ruger 10/22 target rifle. I also tried one on my Savage 6X45 rifle, that I've since removed. The SS is a heavy optic but it seems bulletproof tough.

I mainly took the one off as it was on an EGW 20 MOA base in Burris Tactical low rings, and it had the scope too high to get a good cheek weld. I would have to add a riser or something to get eye alignment. I tried taking off the EGW base, but at 40 in-lbs I twised a torx bit off in the mounting screw. So I mounted a 1" tune scope in extra low rings to get a more comfortable cheek weld.

HiBC is somewhat close on his history. The SS 10X was given a NSN (National Stock Number) by the Navy. That doesn't mean it beat out other optics or was awarded a large Government contract. It just meant the Navy wanted to test them more than probably the handful of samples they had could provide.

You might take a look at Arken Optics, I have the one linked. It has a 34mm main tube and is stupidly heavy at 36 ounces! I got it really cheap, and thought I'd give it a try, but I doubt I'll keep it long term. The reviews on forums is quite favorable on their optics.