Lyman GPR's Built by Pedersoli? Warning Ranting inside.

[deerslayer303]

I just saw Lyman GPR's listed as "By Davide Pedersoli" Thats all fine and well. But, HERE they go again with their "1.48" twist B.S. "to shoot modern Bullets" Well Guess What Mr. Pedersoli, I DON"T WANT TO SHOOT "Modern Bullets" SMH! And now the GPR is north of a grand with a Handicapped twist rate. THANKS LYMAN for effing up a Perfectly good Rifle, that No one has in stock. I don't care what anyone says, 1.48 aint' worth a flying crap for shooting round ball. Been there, done that, SOLD the stupid thing.
Deep Breath - Ok Rant over!

[4V50 Gary]

Decent rant.

If they want to cheat, they should do a minie ball gun and not some compromise twist.

[deerslayer303]

Yes Sir, Its just hard to argue against it. When I can take the cheapest commercial Side Lock, with a crappy Lock, no set trigger, but a decent Barrel with the correct twist rate, and put Round ball in dang near the same hole at 100 yards off a rest. And it didn't take alot of work up or guessing to get it shooting like that. I could NEVER do that with a 1:48" Rifle, no matter the patch, thickness, powder, charge, lube, holding my mouth right, etc, etc LOL
I'm just going to buy a Kiblers Kit and finish it I guess this is my sign to stop being Lazy with factory built guns.

[Hawg]

The signature series made by Pedersoli had a 1:24 twist. From what I've heard Lyman is no longer making muzzleloaders and Pedersoli no longer makes the signature series.

[deerslayer303]

Oh Wow! That's a little heart breaking. What a fine rifle and at a reasonable price they were.

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[l.cutler]

You can still get the old Great Plains rifle made by Investarm, it is now sold as the Investarm Gemmer Hawken. The only ones I can find in stock right now though are the .50 cal. flintlock.

[deerslayer303]

Thank you for that. It seems alot of import guns are out of stock right now.

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[Jim Watson]

Lyman used to have a model with round ball rifling.
Investarms still catalogs it in .50 and .54 with 60" twist, their models 160 percussion and 170 flint. If they had any to sell.

[bladesmith 1]

You're showing your gross ignorance, deerslayer. Let me begin with no other than Bill Large, one of the original founders of the Nation Muzzleloading Rifle Association, was a excellent cross sticks competitor. In his day he was the most famous patched, round ball, barrel maker. Are you listening ? ALL his barrels were 1/48 twist. Many times he would show up to shoot for that side of beef and other shooters would pick up and go home. Many times he would go back farther, or just give away 2nd and 3rd place picks of meat, after winning first place. At one time I had 4 of his barrels, all 1/48. The flint Hawken I made myself had a 54cal, 1/48 twist, 15/16 across the flats, 34" long. I shot many a deer with it, and once on the national muzzleloading range at Friendship tied for first shooting the silhouette match. Targets were from 50 to 200 yards, shot offhand. Patched round ball. At a local match against a bunch of slug gun shooters, I won again with a 50, 4X, at 50 yards rest. Patched round ball. There was the chunk gun I built with one of his 54cal, 1/48 twist, 1 1/2 across the flats, 50" long. On a X target I could put one after the other in one hole. God was that gun heavy. Being more of a pistol shooter I sold it to a guy who would look me back up to say how great it shot. Then there's the wifes little caplock that I had him bore to shoot a 451 RB because I had so many for pistol shooting. She beat everyone one time at a local walkthrough. All the guns are patched round ball, and will shoot with the best. Tompson Center made their so called Hawkens 1/48 because you could shoot their " maxi-ball " or a round ball.
I made a German Jager in 62 cal one time. The reason was I picked up a H&H barrel in 62cal that was made too short for a customer. It was only 20" long and the price was only $50 with the breech plug installed. Anyways, I never could get it to shoot until I figured out it was a 1/66 twist. I took more powder than I was accustom to using. I though it was a bad barrel. No, it was me and what I was loading.
So maybe your problem with shooting PRB in a 1/48 twist is you just didn't try the right powder charge. I think you'll find that 1/66 or 1/72 takes more powder, the 1/48 a little less. It could be any number of things other than the twist.

[bladesmith 1]

If you're shooting open sights at 100yds, I have trouble believing you're shooting a one hole group. Many modern scoped rifles won't do that with a bullet let alone a PRB. Your statement is a bit of a stretch.

[44 AMP]

I have trouble believing you're shooting a one hole group.

I don't have any trouble believing it, its fine shooting.

Note he did not say one "ball sized" hole....

I've shot a one hole group (5 shots) that measures 2.5". Five .45cal holes overlapping. That makes it ONE hole.

[Hawg]

My .54 will make one hole groups but it is a big hole. My 30-06 will make one bullet sized hole

[bladesmith 1]

You guys are shooting mighty fine groups. Open iron sights are hard to align the same every time and it starts showing up more at a hundred yards. And any kind of wind at all really blows a RB quite a bit. Modern gun manufactures brag when they make a gun that shoots minute of angle at a hundred yards. And that's with a scope and bullets. Congratulations to all of you.

[FrankenMauser]

I don't care what anyone says, 1.48 aint' worth a flying crap for shooting round ball.

I have had two rifles that shot PBRs very well with 1:48" twists.
Perhaps you never got your ball, wad, lube, and powder charge combination correct for the one that you gave up on.

Is the twist theoretically a little fast? Sure.
But does it work? In my experience, yes. (And that of several other people in my family.)

[Pahoo]

I don't care what anyone says, 1.48 aint' worth a flying crap for shooting round ball. Been there, done that, SOLD the stupid thing.
Deep Breath - Ok Rant over!

You certainly have the right to rant and this is as good a time and place to do so. I too prefer 1:60-66 for RB shooting.....

If they want to cheat, they should do a minie ball gun and not some compromise twist.

The 1:48, is a compromise twist. I once read that many of Jake and Sams barrels out of St. Louis and Harper's Ferry, were 1:48 pre-conical. When asked why that twist, supposedly they did not have a difinitive answer. I'm sure there is more to this story, than meets the eye. ...

Yes Sir, Its just hard to argue against it. When I can take the cheapest commercial Side Lock, with a crappy Lock, no set trigger, but a decent Barrel with the correct twist rate, and put Round ball in dang near the same hole at 100 yards off a rest.

Again, I respect your choices and stick with it. In part, I can say this because I shoot both twists and both shoot better that I can. .....

Tompson Center made their so called Hawkens 1/48 because you could shoot their " maxi-ball " or a round ball.

True but not always the case. Perhaps you need to do a bit more homework.

But does it work? In my experience, yes. (And that of several other people in my family.)

Same for me but JMHO and this is a Rant-allowed zone...........

Be Safe !!!!

[Hawg]

I have heard that Sam and Jake only had one rifling machine and it was a 1:48 twist. Rifles back in the day had deeper grooves. That may have helped with round ball accuracy. I had a .50 Investarms with a 1:48 twist and it shot round balls better than conicals. I have to admit my .54 Douglas barrel with a 1:66 twist shoots round balls much better.

[deerslayer303]

I said, " I can take a cheap off the shelf side lock with a crappy lock, and put round ball in dang near the same hole". I didn't say THE same hole. This rifle is in fact a Traditions Kentucky. The cheapest side lock round ball chucker you can buy with a 1:60 twist. And it does the job very well. Not some secret brew of lube, or some special thickness of patch made from unicorn hide, or a light charge,etc etc. Load development was very easy for my intended purpose. I'm not shooting a custom high end, expensive bench rifle with a custom barrel. I'm talking off the shelf commercial guns. These manufacturers just annoy me with the twist rates in various models. Like a 1:48 twist in a Pennsylvania, 1:28 in a GPR etc. I don't shoot for sides of beef, I shoot for sides of DEER, out of a tree 20 foot up with no rest. I have to shoot Affordable rifles. And I do it with a round ball. So I want a rifle with the proper twist rate for the projectile I plan to shoot. I guess next thing I'll hear is, I should buy a 1:12" twist barrel for my AR to shoot 77 grain bullets, because some Messiah of the AR world had a custom barrel that could do it. So please forgive my "ignorance" for wanting the correct tool for the job I have in mind. With all that said, from this thread I did find out that the GPR is still made under a different name and I'm waiting on some to hit our shores. So my rant was productive, I guess And I'm building the budget for a Kibler (my first Flinter) that is probably the closest I will ever get to a high end front stuffer. Well it's my high end I guess. I appreciate all of the replies. And I too respect everyone else opinion on the matter. If you can do it with a 1:48 that's great, I could not make it happen with the TC Hawken I had. The groups were way to big for me to feel comfortable going in the woods with it. And I surely won't intentionally buy another with that rate of twist intending to solely shoot round ball, which is what I like and very economical. As a sportsman my equipment has to without a shadow of a doubt prove itself to be worthy of woods work. There is no do overs or second shot. I like to make the best shot possible on an animal for a clean ethical harvest. The TC just didn't do it. I did spend some time with it though, in the end I sold it and replaced it with the Kentucky which has proven itself a worthy Deerslayer. I'm just wanting to step up to .54 as I may have an opportunity to go after some bigger game soon.

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[FrankenMauser]

Please consider paragraphs.

Your previous two posts are just walls of text.

[bladesmith 1]

Pahoo was right in a way. TC used a 1/48 but also only had the rifling .004 deep. It was a compromise between RBs and their Maxi ball. RB rifling should be deeper, at least Bill Large thought so. His were .015 deep. Deep enough to grip the ball securely if heavy loads were used. And that's the trouble with many modern made rifles - the rifling is too shallow for RB shooting and heavy loads.
So once again I'll say Deerslayer is dead wrong by lumping all BP rifles together as bad shooting guns if they have a 1/48 twist. Nothing could be further from the truth. And we may have newbies to BP shooting that read something like his rant and believe it. I've been shooting BP since 1969. After trying a Spanish made gun and then T/C, I was taught how to make my own. I starter going to the National shoot in Friendship around 1971 and competed in mostly pistol, some shotgun, rifle, and primitive matches. I acquired a camping spot there next to Bill Large, Ted Cash, and Turner Kirkland from Dixie Gun Works.
I guess I'm just use to shooting guns with good, properly made [ rifled ] barrels. So for 60 years I've shot guns with 1/48 twist that group just great, then I read a rant saying how they're nothing but crap. The one gun I had that wouldn't shoot had the H&H barrel. H&H made barrels with round grove rifling believing they would be simpler to clean. It also had a 1/66 twist and I couldn't get it to group. Having only shot guns with 1/48 twist I was use to less powder than what it took for a 62 cal with a 1/66 twist. I though it was the round grove rifling. At times we want to blame something and it isn't the problem. I believe this is the case with deerslayers rant. That first Spanish gun I had was a CZ. They have come a long way but in the 60s and 70s they were a piece of s#!!. The barrels were so ruff you couldn't push a PRB down. And cleaning - after a hour or so the black was still coming out of it. There are many things that can contribute to poor shooting, but it sure isn't the twist, with in reason. In Africa some guns that were 4 bore for shooting lions had a 1/192 twist. They had just enough rifling to stabilize the big ball, not not so much to give a lot of resistance to the ball and cause more recoil than necessary. With the right books and a little reading one can learn quite a bit.

[bladesmith 1]

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The PC or the web sites won't let one do paragraphs in the normal way
They, or it, starts every line all the way to the left. Sorry.

[deerslayer303]

Youre right Bladesmith. I may have been wrong to lump them ALL in a basket. I'm drawing my position off of my experience. My position remains though, I wouldn't knowingly go buy a 3/8" wrench to remove a metric 10mm bolt. When knowingly there is a better tool designed to fit that bolt perfectly.

[Hawg]

Never mind.

[FrankenMauser]

They, or it, starts every line all the way to the left. Sorry.

Hit enter twice.

[Hawg]

Lets see.

If that works. Nope.

[backlash]

bladesmith 1, Good story, IF, you had omitted the unnecessary first sentence.