Aperture sight alignment

[divil]

Help me settle something. I can elaborate later, but for now I want to know how you use aperture sights (or at least how you think you're using them) and what kind of results you get.

If you vote, please also comment with as much info as possible on what kind of accuracy you typically get. At a minimum, your group size at a given distance, shooting position, and ideally type of rifle, exact type of sights, front post/front globe etc.

Thanks!

[44 AMP]

You may have thought of this, and we are just expressing our thoughts in different ways...


I look THROUGH (not at) the rear peep. I put the top of the front sight post in the center of the "hole" and put what I want to hit on top of the post.

If the gun is adjusted to fit you (and you put your head in the same place every time) then the top of the front sight will naturally be centered in the aperture.

IF this isn't happening, the fix is to adjust you (your shooting position) the stock, or the sights, or a combination of these things.

When you shoulder the rifle, things should line up "on their own" and you shouldn't have to hunt around to find your sights. Just as, with a properly mounted scope (for you) you shouldn't have to move your head to "hunt" for the full field of view. It should line up properly when you shoulder the rifle. If it doesn't something isn't lined up (aligned) correctly. Most of the time, its the shooter...

[divil]

You may have thought of this, and we are just expressing our thoughts in different ways...


I look THROUGH (not at) the rear peep. I put the top of the front sight post in the center of the "hole" and put what I want to hit on top of the post.

If the gun is adjusted to fit you (and you put your head in the same place every time) then the top of the front sight will naturally be centered in the aperture.

IF this isn't happening, the fix is to adjust you (your shooting position) the stock, or the sights, or a combination of these things.

When you shoulder the rifle, things should line up "on their own" and you shouldn't have to hunt around to find your sights. Just as, with a properly mounted scope (for you) you shouldn't have to move your head to "hunt" for the full field of view. It should line up properly when you shoulder the rifle. If it doesn't something isn't lined up (aligned) correctly. Most of the time, its the shooter...

Thanks. It sounds to me like you do the 2nd option by my way of expressing it, since you deliberately make sure the post is in the center of the aperture (by the sound of it).

The reason for my post is that many sources claim that you do not need to deliberately put the front sight in the center of the aperture. The phrase that's all over the internet is that "your eye will do it automatically". Some even go so far as to say that if you try to do it deliberately, that will prevent you from shooting well.

But what I have found is that my eye doesn't do it automatically. I have to make sure to put the post in the exact center. And that's usually harder for me than putting a post in the center of a notch, because the aperture is huge by comparison and invariably contains clutter from around my target. So the center of the area of light is not always the center of the aperture.

If I just look through the aperture, put the post on the target, and trust my eye to "automatically" align the post to the center of the aperture, I will get good groups as long as I maintain exactly the same eye position. The next group I shoot will also be good but it'll be in a slightly different place. Yes it's close as long as I have my eye close to the same place every time, but I find it impossible to get a perfectly consistent cheek weld on any one rifle, nevermind trying to do it on every rifle I have.

But if I pay attention to where the post is in the aperture, and make sure it's centered, then I get good groups centered in the same place every time, even though my cheek weld is far from consistent.

I am talking about precision shooting here. I can ignore the aperture/post alignment and still get good enough accuracy to be dangerous. But I want to shoot 1 MOA groups, not minute of pumpkin or whatever (which is why I'm asking people to tell me the results they are get as well as their technique - not every has the same notion of accuracy).

[Sarge]

I use the method 44AMP described with aperture sights, regardless of platform. Once I have acquired a target, my focus shifts to the front sight aligning it as precisely as possible on that target. I know the aperture is there but it plays no role in my making the shot.

[David Todd]

My sights get aligned when I perform my automatic alignment as part of my shot sequence - every time, and deliberately. Once aligned the thecrear sight is in my peripheral vision only.
David

[44 AMP]

. The phrase that's all over the internet is that "your eye will do it automatically".

Yes, it will, but that phrase is slightly misleading. Your eye does not automatically put the front sight post ANYWHERE...

What the human eye can do "automatically" is find the center of a circle. In other words, you can tell when something is in the center of a circle, or when its off to one side or another.

It's up to YOU to put your sight post so that it's top is in the center of the circle. Your eye doesn't do that, what your eye does is recognize when its there, or not.

[tangolima]

My neck is short and the stock is long, or my nose is too small. Doesn't matter how hard I try, I simply can't put my nose on the charging handle, or so close to the rear sight that the hole disappears. It is always there in the periphery as reference. The front sight post is the only thing in focus. Its tip is in the middle of the blurry hole and it points to the intended poi. It doesn't have to be automatic, but I have to be aware of the sight picture and make adjustment to make it happen.

I can regularly shoot 10-round groups at 100yd smaller than 2”. Occasionally I go below 2”, but very rarely can I go below 1”. With that and some luck, I think I can hit torso sized target out 500yd, if not 800(I wish), with less than 2 shots. Good enough for me. I will let the others to win matches and break records. I can't afford the ammo costs to achieve that.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Jim Watson]

What the human eye can do "automatically" is find the center of a circle. In other words, you can tell when something is in the center of a circle, or when its off to one side or another.

It is the diffraction effect, the center of the hole is brighter and clearer.

I shot BPCR for a while and they have very elaborate sights; a globe front with ring insert and a tang sight with adjustable aperture size. Scale the insert and the aperture to the target and the lighting and they are very precise.

[divil]

Yes, it will, but that phrase is slightly misleading. Your eye does not automatically put the front sight post ANYWHERE...

What the human eye can do "automatically" is find the center of a circle. In other words, you can tell when something is in the center of a circle, or when its off to one side or another.

It's up to YOU to put your sight post so that it's top is in the center of the circle. Your eye doesn't do that, what your eye does is recognize when its there, or not.

Well of course your eye doesn't have direct control over the rifle. I wasn't going to split hairs over that. The issue is whether you must pay attention to sight alignment or not.

This is clearly a tricky thing to talk about because people have such different ways of phrasing things. For instance, I took your initial reply to mean that you do pay attention to your sight alignment, but Sarge seems to have taken it to mean that you don't. We both read the same thing! And now after reading your latest reply, I still don't know.

I'll try to phrase it a different way. Do you agree or disagree with Bart B in this quote:

Here's two popular versions of a myth about using metallic sights:

With peep sights, your eye automatically centers the top of the front sight in the circle.

With an aperture, alignment with the rear sight isn't so critical--your eye sort of handles it for you.

Anyone who can shoot no worse than 1 MOA for 15 or more consecutive shots with these sights knows they are myths. But alas, the internet is full of sites with folks claiming they're facts such as this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_sight . But it's got other good information on them.

Ask the folks from the US Olympic or Palma rifle teams who are the best in using aperture (peep) sights.

I"m sure you have all heard these kinds of claims, which Bart calls myths, for example here:

Sight alignment, as normally taught, is of little importance when aiming with aperture sights

or here:

The shooters eye will automatically center the front sight in the round hole. ANYTHING that draws attention to the aperture/hole/rear sight will detract from that magical alignment and require more work to achieve a proper sight picture.

I could go on citing sources of this kind but I don't think there's any need.

But there is contrasting advice like Bart Bs post above, or this like this:

When you look through the rear aperture, your mind must form an imaginary pair of cross hairs, one vertical and one horizontal. The front sight post is then aligned with these cross hairs. The top of the front sight post is brought up even with the horizontal line and centered.

Read about this for any length of time and you find most people adhere to one of these 2 contrasting claims. The essential character of the disagreement is: you must do sight alignment consciously vs you must not do it consciously. I created the poll to try and see a correlation between which side people are on, and what results they get. But I don't think it's going to work out.

[tangolima]

I have to do it consciously (to check and make it happen). Without that I can only get it close.

Why not do it consciously, especially during slow fire. You have the time, do you not? You may not during rapid fire. That's why rapid fire has bigger groups.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[44 AMP]

Let's see if I can come at this a different way...

Sight "alignment" is ALWAYS critical. If you don't align your eye, your sights, and your target, you don't hit where you want to.

I do pay attention to my sight alignment (as I understand the term), with peep sights, and with open iron sights on my rifles and handguns.

My understanding of "sight alignment" is that it means aligning the front and rear sights, with each other. in the configuration desired by the shooter.

With a peep sight, this is normally top of the front sight in the center of the aperture circle. with open sights this can be "equal amount of light on both side of the front sight in the rear notch, and top of the front sight level with the top of the rear sight (which is the way pistol sights are usually used) or it could mean "putting the brass bead in the bottom of ther U notch" (on a rifle so equipped) or it could mean something else depending on the shooter's preference and the equipment used.

The rear sight "peep" is a reference, one your eye uses to form the "circle" and then find the center of. Its not looked at, its looked through, and should be visible, but slightly out of focus.

When the rifle is set up to fit you (well enough if not perfectly) and you are consistent with your eye placement, relative to the rear sight, the front sight should be visible somewhere in the ring. Aligning the sights means moving the rifle so that you see the top of the front sight at the center of the circle.

Hope this clarifies things for you.