Uvalde After Action Report

[shafter]

Dougle Naught - What's troubling to me is that in every other situation these cops were probably brave. They've probably all responded to scenes where the suspect was at least as dangerous if not more. What doesn't make sense is that suddenly they back down when it's a school.

JohnK - The problem I'm seeing is that we have expectations for law enforcement that far exceeds the level of training they are given. Imagine getting hired to pour a foundation and yet given no training on how to do it right. Then, when you screw it up everyone gets mad at you and says "well, he signed up for it."

Departments need to be held accountable for lack of training. I'm sure that nowadays many departments are doing some sort of active shooter training but when you take a close look at the actual training evolutions they're pure garbage. I've seen this first hand with agencies I work with.

Cops understand that the odds of ever having to respond to an active shooter call are extremely low and in the meantime focus on settling important problems every community faces every day like domestics, mental health calls, and drunk drivers. If we crush cops for failing in these situations there won't be many left to handle the other problems. They'll all leave. The solution is training. Good top tier training from reputable sources.

[44 AMP]

The solution is training.

You're not wrong, but it is rarely quite that simple.

I've been "trained" for years in accident investigation, root cause analysis and (industrial) emergency response, and as long as there is any human involvement in the situation, " The solution is training." Often, but not always there are other factors involved, but whenever there is a human, then "training" is ALWAYS one of the factors.

And this catch-all category applies if the person does what they're trained to do , AND if they don't.

"Training" is always the scapegoat when things go wrong, and almost never given more than a passing mention when things go right. When things go wrong, despite the training being followed then training gets the blame for being inadequate, incorrect, or insufficient.

When things go wrong because the person/people involved IGNORE their training, (either willfully or unintentionally) training STILL GETS THE BLAME...

"Training" is a huge blanket, and is stretched to cover virtually everything, sometimes stretched so thin as to be essentially transparent.

So, while "the training needs to be improved" IS actually the solution, what generally happens is we get sidetracked in the merry-go-round of specifics, what, and where changes need to be made, and often every kingdom builder in the bureaucracy sticks their own thumb (priorities) into the mix, and the resultant stew become the next, new standard, until THAT fails and the whole blame game starts over...

If you think that meddlesome, agenda driven people don't screw up what the training is/should be, I suggest you review what happened when someone suggested airline pilots be allowed to be armed...

[Double Naught Spy]

Dougle Naught - What's troubling to me is that in every other situation these cops were probably brave. They've probably all responded to scenes where the suspect was at least as dangerous if not more. What doesn't make sense is that suddenly they back down when it's a school.

So, what you are saying is that these cops were fair weather cops, good for routine activities, but just not prepared for a real crisis? What I find most troubling isn't that they were possibly brave in other situations and failed to do so here, but that this is when the stakes were the highest and they had people on scene from nearly the very beginning that were trained SPECIFICALLY for this type of event. An SRO arrived on campus within moments of the shooter and actually (unknowingly) passed the shooter while still outside of the school. Other officers arrived before the shooter even entered the school. Moreover, after the shooter entered the school, other officers showed up that were trained SPECIFICALLY for this type of event. You talk about training being the answer and these people had training. The Uvalde CISD Police Chief, Arredondo was on the scene VERY early on and is among the first officers to make entry into the school.

JohnK - The problem I'm seeing is that we have expectations for law enforcement that far exceeds the level of training they are given. Imagine getting hired to pour a foundation and yet given no training on how to do it right. Then, when you screw it up everyone gets mad at you and says "well, he signed up for it."

This was NOTHING like getting hired to pour a foundation and not given any training to do so. EVERY LEO gets a goodly amount of training and there were most definitely people on scene with the specific training needed exactly for this kind of event. Never mind that broad level officer training also covers this sort of event. However, going back to your foundation example, all of these guys had training to pour foundations.

As noted, the first LEO on scene was a SRO who was trained for this task. The Uvalde SWAT team was trained for this very task. The Uvalde CISD Police Arredondo that arrived on scene (and later claimed to not be in control despite issuing orders and the school specifically being his jurisdiction, recognized as the incident commander, etc.) had his latest school shooter training just a few months before. He was trained for this very type of event. https://www.insider.com/uvalde-polic...-report-2022-5

Yes, they very much did sign up for this, particularly the Uvalde ISD Police officers. They trained for this. This was not something outside of the realm of expected jobs that they might have to perform. https://www.ucisd.net/Page/2120 Let's face it. This isn't 1955. School shootings aren't virtually unknown. Why do you think Uvalde CISD had their own police force in the first place?

Cops understand that the odds of ever having to respond to an active shooter call are extremely low and in the meantime focus on settling important problems every community faces every day like domestics, mental health calls, and drunk drivers. If we crush cops for failing in these situations there won't be many left to handle the other problems.

That is like saying firemen mostly deal with little fires, vehicle accidents, etc., so you are okay if they decide not to fight a fire because it is bigger than what they do on a daily basis. I can see it now, the firemen sayng, "That is a big school fire. We might get hurt fighting it. We will just stand around outside and make sure nobody else does anything to put out the fire or save the people inside."

Yeah, if we crush the cops who aren't doing their jobs, they should leave because we can't count on them when we really need them, like when our children and their teachers are being shot, some killed, and some just left to bleed out for 90 minutes until some other federal law enforcement folks whose job has nothing to do with the situation finally take some action.

Arredondo got crushed. Other than you and Arredondo, I don't think anybody is upset about him getting crushed. Others should be as well.

And it isn't like they didn't know that there were wounded children and teachers inside the classrooms. When SRO Ruiz reported that his wife is shot and down in her classroom after he spoke with her on the phone, he got escorted from the building, detained, and disarmed. https://www.kwtx.com/2022/06/21/poli...save-his-wife/ After all, we can't have some crazy cop trained for this sort of thing trying to save people, right?

However, you say more training is needed. Okay, there were nearly 400 law enforcement officers on scene by the time the gunman was taken out by the Border Patrol Tactical Team. You think they were trained specifically for dealing with school shooters?

There was Uvalde CISD Police, Uvalde Police, Uvalde SWAT, Uvalde Sheriff's Office, TxDPS, Border Patrol, Border Patrol Tactical Team, US Marshalls, DEA, and a smattering of officers from surrounding towns and counties. How much more training do you want? There were more law enforcement officers present at Uvalde, nearly double than who defended the Alamo against Santa Anna's army of ~4000 soldiers, LOL, but the lone gunman was the only one in control of the situation. That gunman, unlike the HUNDREDS of officers, did not have any training.

I would assume that in short order, all of Uvalde CISD Police officers were on scene. Did they have any training? Sure. As noted, Arredondo had just got through his training again a few months prior for active shooters.

Officer Celia Flores - Flores serves on the board as Region 5 Director for the Texas Association of School Resources Officers. She is currently working to obtain her intermediate certification and has attended numerous safety trainings such as Crisis Intervention, Advanced Hostage Rescue, and Youth Mental Health Awareness.
https://www.ucisd.net/domain/1725

No doubt the other SROs did as well, hence why they were SROs, right? Sadly, their creds do not appear to be currently listed on Uvalde CISD's website anymore.

And what about Uvalde PD SWAT? Usually, SWAT teams are the best of the best, high speed, low drag, highest trained, most gear and most powerful gear. Dang, these folks certainly look like they can handle themselves.https://www.facebook.com/uvaldepd/ph...371887/?type=3


That was, of course, their photo of when they posted on FB about how they would be in full tactical gear and touring Uvalde schools and businesses in 2020...you know, so that they could learn the layout of the premises in case there was an incident, you know, like a school shooting...

The issue wasn't that there weren't officers there with training for the job.

[Limnophile]

Uvalde law enforcement officers terminated:

https://youtu.be/CtOoTd4enw8

[Double Naught Spy]

Uvalde law enforcement officers terminated:

https://youtu.be/CtOoTd4enw8

NO. Only one current officer was fired, only the newest officer who was hired from DPS and who was determined to have performed poorly when responding to the shooting as a DPS officer and because of comments she made at the time. The rest are on suspension from the PD, but still employed by the district.

[HiBC]

I'll say it again. The pic above of the Uvalde SWAT Team LOOKS impressive.
They spent the money.
They probably have at least a step van to transport in. Likely 1000 yd rifles,rangefinders ,spotting scopes.

And we can assume they did range days and drills. Maybe went to training schools.

Training is good but its only effective when it is combined with decisions and action. Whether it is a picture perfect SWAT Team or an Army of One.

Once again, 2007,New Life Church, Colorado Springs, a heavily armed nut case went into a church to rack up a body count.
An armed ex cop was in the congregation as authorized security. When the killer entered the building shooting,casualties in the parking lot, this petite Woman with her sidearm headed into the gunfire and dropped the killer with the AR-15. I'm leaving her name out because she does not want attention.

These killers are not typically Delta Force. They are coward punks shooting unarmed kids. Confronted by one "Good Guy" who shoots back, its not unusual for them to choose a quick suicide.

Parkland? Klebold and Harris? Sandy Hook? This punk at Uvalde? Had they been to Thunder Ranch or Gunsite? Ranger School? No. They were punk wannabes who might have watched video games and posted selfies.

And I think any one,or better two beat cops with the arms in most patrol cars and the training most cops get would be fully capable of heading toward the gunfire and stopping the murder of children.
Dangerous? YES!! Could they get killed? YES!! But beat cops face that every day. DV calls,traffic stops. Getting ambushed gassing up.

At least in an active shooter scenario, the element of surprise is mitigated.
The Officer (S) can go in 100% on their toes. Even if they get hit, unless its a CNS hit,with body armor there is a good chance the bad guy can get hole punched.
SWAT is good. But one or two determined beat cops can stop the killing.So can an armed Custodian or Teacher. The time thing. That might save 5 or 10 kids. Thats what we are talking about. Its often one wimpy coward punk who just bought an AR or AK or shotgun for his fantasy.

One more thought. Looking at the pic of the Uvalde SWAT Team... I have no doubt they are well trained,well equipt volunteers who were there because they wanted to be.

As some famous military leader pointed out,

"There are no poor units. Only poor leaders"

A failure the scope of Uvalde is almost certainly a failure of command.

Officers who were willing and able to intervene were forced to stand down.

[thallub]

Texas has fired three state troopers over the Uvalde train wreck:

"The fired trooper was identified as Sgt. Juan Maldonado, CBS News learned Friday. Maldonado is the third officer to be fired over the botched law enforcement response to the shooting."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-s...uan-maldonado/

[Gas Bag]

I don’t want to be a dog chewing on a bone, but when I saw the photo of the Uvalde SWAT team, I thought that they are all flash and no bang.

[fastbolt]

Training is the answer when training is a problem.

The right people are the answer when people are the problem.

You can't field the right people if you don't look to attract and hire them. Despite what recruiting posters and recruiting officers at booths at job fairs like to promote, LE is not something that everybody has the psychological stability and willingness to effectively do. Yes, there's also a physical component to the requirements of the job when things don't go smoothly.

You can't promote and appoint the right people if you don't have them among the candidates from which to choose. This includes the leadership at the top. Having a wall full of certificates and diplomas is great for interior decorating and photo ops, but it really only means someone filled out their name on a training roster and had a seat at some training event. Just because they were good test-takers doesn't meaning they could walk the walk outside the safety of a training class and environment, let alone took the critical elements of their training experience to heart and back to work with them.

Going to a swat or active shooter training isn't like being a graduate of Top Gun. You can listen to Danger Zone on your device while running and exercising, but that just means you're listening to music.

[shafter]

I think part of the problem is that nowadays the majority of day to day activities of law enforcement is on the opposite end of the spectrum of the small percent when all hell is breaking loose. Being well suited for most of the job means that most cops aren't necessarily suited for that call of a lifetime. The people who you want when things are really going sideways aren't the ones you want handling the day to day calls and vice versa. Training helps but only so much.

[Double Naught Spy]

The SROs are supposed to be those highly trained people we wanted protecting the kids. They are supposed to be the ones with the active shooter training that know to follow protocol to go in (at their risk) and neutralize the shooter. That is literally the job they sign up for and are supposed to be trained to perform. Then there are the SWAT guys that are supposed to be highly trained and go in and put down shooters. They were all there in the opening minutes. Sadly, the aggressive protocol lasted for only one feeble attempt and once the first responders were shot at and one grazed, they suffered a group think mental breakdown that was not overcome by their leadership (also trained in this very activity) and from all appearances, crippled leadership so far that a federal agency not responsible for the job had to do it well after the golden hour of trauma was over.

[thallub]

A Texas Ranger who was in the building and did nothing has been suspended.

"Christopher Ryan Kindell was inside the school on May 24, when a gunman killed 19 children and two teachers. Sources tell CNN Kindell left the shooter unchallenged for more than an hour while he was on the scene. "

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/dp...c908191282a62a

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy

The SROs are supposed to be those highly trained people we wanted protecting the kids. They are supposed to be the ones with the active shooter training that know to follow protocol to go in (at their risk) and neutralize the shooter. That is literally the job they sign up for and are supposed to be trained to perform.

I think this is an optimistic view of what SROs are, and are supposed to be.

SROs are School RESOURCE Officers, not School Protection Officers. Their primary function is keeping peace within the school and providing a positive role model for the kids. When the grammar school in my town had an SRO, he was an older gentleman, considerably overweight, whose only function in the police department other than SRO was to act as the department's photographer. (He also worked part-time in a camera shop at a mall in a nearby city.)

The SRO at Parklands in Florida was there primarily to pencil whip the reports of delinquent behavior. If you have read up at all on the "Broward Solution," what this refers to is a program the County had in place to report felonies as misdemeanors, and to not report misdemeanors as crimes. The purpose of this, which was carried out with the cooperation of the Superintendent (and possibly/probably at his request), was to improve the statistics regarding criminal activity in the school system.

It's nice to think of SROs as the first line of defense against active shooters, but I don't think most school districts or PDs regard them as such.

[HiBC]

What Police Dept is not facing short staff and budgets?
I'm not knocking SRO s .Quite the contrary. My 10 years as a custodian, I (thankfully) never experienced an active shooter in the school. But yes,the SRO might be a placement for police hires less suitable for rigorous street duty.

SRO s do help "keep the lid on" the population of 500 to 1000 plus hormone fueled young people learning social interaction skills under one roof. Its easier to tip off an SRO about a drug dealing or gangsters or threatening individuals.

Schools themselves tend to want their students to get past "indiscretions" without stained public records.They also avoid dealing with parents who are certain "My kid would not do that" And,every incident requires a lot of paperwork.
I've witnessed teachers use a large book to shield their eyes from seeing student misbehavior.
The schools want "smoothness"...even if it takes denial to maintain it.
A problem is : Today's bullied kid (who may be a cockroach) might get bullied by the school star quarterback.
And its not necessarily the"cockroach" . The "jocks" at my daughter's high school stuffed her in a locker and left her there mostly because she had an "out" gay friend.
When I called in I talked to an assistant Principal who was also a football coach. I got the "boys will be boys" routine. I explained to the coach I taught my Daughter to be Peaceful and tolerant. If she could not be safe in the hallways,I would teach her how to kill people. I gave the example of a nylon rat tail comb being an effective ice pick. A sock full of change will break a skull. I'm sure that got my name on some list, but bullied students left out in the cold arm themselves. And SOMETIMES they ARE crazy.

Stuffing a kid in a locker has to be some form of felony.

An SRO can see that more clearly than a football coach. For my Daughter,being stuffed in a locker was more significant than winning a state football championship.

As a custodian, I found used hypo syringes and liquor "shooters" at the school. When I turned them in to the office, I got "What do you want us to do about it?"
I was finding a lot of airsoft pellets. Speculate on the possibilities.

An SRO can take time to view security video.

FWIW, most schools have several strategically placed video cams and a monitor in the office . Thumbnail display gives an overall picture of activity.

Call me "Captain Obvious" ,but in a crisis , an Officer on that monitor with a radio could be good intel. Maybe even an I-Pad with access to the school feeds would be good.

A head or night custodian will have a Master Key to every room in the building. When a custodian is absent, the Relief Crew comes around and gets at least the basic cleanup. To do that,the Relief Crew has a Master Key that works in any door,any school.

With just a little forethought, the scenario of locked classroom door would be no obstacle (or excuse) for delayed response. The SRO and SWAT could have a key.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by HiBC

With just a little forethought, the scenario of locked classroom door would be no obstacle (or excuse) for delayed response. The SRO and SWAT could have a key.

Years ago I sat in on a presentation from the Las Vegas Sheriff’s Department about lessons learned from that shooting. One thing the department had going for them in that event was the availability of what they called, “Go Bags”. Those were centrally located bags at each casino that had the access cards and keys needed to get around the buildings. The idea here was this helped alleviate the need to search down one person or another that may be the sole bearer of a certain key. Instead they went to one location, grabbed the Go Bag, and then the team could make itself around the casino. Going into the presentation I didn’t have a full appreciation for the sheer difficulty of navigating a space with which you aren’t familiar and, in the case of Vegas, is in part designed to keep you disoriented so you stay in the casinos spending money (not to mention the sheer size of the casinos).

I’ve also sat in on a presentation from one of the officers that responded to the Washington Naval Yard shooting, and there similar issues were found. In their case it was less an access issue, and more an issue with familiarity with the space and coordinating arriving officers with those on the scene. In that shooting there was surveillance throughout the building, and in time stamps on the videos there were multiple instances where the shooter and officers passed within seconds of each other on stairwells. There actually was a person in the central control room for the surveillance cameras, unfortunately that person was in a state of shock and never relayed relevant information. Like someone mentioned above, you can have equipment and training, but real life doesn’t always hit you the same.

In sitting through both of those presentations and comparing them to what is detailed in the report in the OP, I can only shake my head. I’d argue, even if the officers in those other instances wouldn’t, that the officers in those other instances faced larger hurdles than those seen in Uvalde. And yes plenty of things went wrong in those instances too, but there was a concerted effort to keep working the problem. In Uvalde there was a shutdown. Whether the failures were a function of leadership, individual officer inaction, or a combination of that and others the result was obviously tragic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JohnKSa]

SROs are School RESOURCE Officers, not School Protection Officers.

From what I can tell, protection is definitely part of their job, at least in TX.

They are fully commissioned LEOs and are issued firearms and body armor.

Here's a job req for a SRO in TX.

https://www.tcole.texas.gov/sites/de...%20Officer.pdf

First job responsibility:

"Protecting the lives and property of DISTRICT students, personnel, and visitors."

Equipment includes:

"Police vehicle, two-way radio, firearms, vehicular radar, intoxilyzer, handcuffs, body armor, defensive weapons, mobile telephone, and video camera/equipment."

[HiBC]

From what I can tell, protection is definitely part of their job, at least in TX.

They are fully commissioned LEOs and are issued firearms and body armor.

Here's a job req for a SRO in TX.

I'd agree what you describe for an SRO is a fine ideal . It may be a description of what is needed. No argument.
What I am about to say is not meant to disrespect ANYONE. No disrespect to SRO's. I'll pre-emptively say there are a number of critical cases where Women Officers rose to the occasion. IIRC, maybe the Washington DC assault on the baseball team. The Ft Hood shootings. The New Life Church.
I know of a couple of Silver Stars earned by Women. IIRC,one was a SGT who took action and busted an ambush and the other was a Medic.

There are Women who will pick up a broom and beat a Grizzly Bear down to a greasy spot if it threatens the kids. There are Women Teachers who did all they could do for the kids by absorbing bullets. I'm not disrespecting the Woman Warrior. And I'm sure Rhonda Rousey could whoop me quick.

Hiring practices have evolved. Today, LEO career opportunities are open to soccer Moms.
There are Officer who are just aging. Not ready to retire but looking forward to it. Dad Bod and all.

These useful People may be assigned as Community Service Officers ,DARE officers,or SRO's.

There are only so many cops to choose from. It would be great if our military could have 80,000 Special Forces and SEALS. Where do you find them? Every Football team could use an Elway or a Manning or that guy who deflates his balls...Whats his name? Where do you buy those?

You are the Chief of Police. You have 63 Officers. What criteria do you use to decide who is assigned 10 SRO positions?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TunnelRat : Some schools are VERY disorienting! I agree. The person who will know the school building, every breaker panel,valve, closet, roof access hatch, ladder, under floor hatch, key,and lock is the Custodian.

The Custodian even knows where to look for a donut or slice of pizza.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The schools I worked in had relatively sophisticated alarm systems. I'd arm the system as I went out the door to go home. Except sometimes there would be a fault. I had to figure out what was wrong. One night,it was motion in the rooms. Thats a little spooky. I worked alone at night. The control panel told me the room.
The teacher had hung CD's,DVDs by threads from the ceiling. When the heat came on the airflow would move them . That would trigger the motion sensor. It took a while for me to see it.

The potentially useful point: I'm not an alarm tech. Potentially,the security alarm system could be used to determine which rooms have motion. I'd guess the potential victims would tend to be still and the shooter would be moving.

Door ajar faults can show movement. Between camera,audio, and motion sensors all feeding a monitor and control panel, a lot of info would be available. It can save time. Some schools are a basement and three floors.
While system software may not currently support this use, it can be developed as a responder tool.

[101combatvet]

Originally Posted by shafter

Mike Glover of Fieldcraft Survival does an excellent breakdown of the security footage and the tactics used or not used.

Mike is very pro law enforcement as am I so don't take this as a cop bashing post. There are a lot of lessons to be taken from this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_f6lvwVyfE&t=8s

He gets way too emotional, which isn't a good trait either.

The first time seeing that video, all of those jokers in blue were worthless.

[101combatvet]

Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy

He was trained for this very type of event.

Wrong rifles, but okay.

[shafter]

Good luck getting a highly trained and tactically proficient officer to accept a position as an SRO. Those guys want to be on the street where the action is. In many departments you can't just assign someone to a specialty position. If I was forced to work in a school every day I would quit and go somewhere else.

SRO's are generally the older and less fit officers who are looking for a couple of easy years before retirement. Often they're great at every aspect of that job except for the one time someone shows up and starts shooting. Law enforcement has so many different facets to it nowadays that the skill and demeanor that allows one to be effective at one area can work against them in others. It's extremely difficult to maintain an edge in a place when nothing ever happens 99.9 percent of the time.

[JohnKSa]

The fact remains that it is one of their stated responsibilities and they are trained and paid to do it.

If society is really ok with the idea that there isn't going to be any effective onsite protection to stand up to a school shooter then the money paid for salaries/training/equipment could be spent on something else instead. It makes no sense to pay them, train them, equip them and then to make excuses for them when they don't do their job.

[HiBC]

If society is really ok with the idea that there isn't going to be any effective onsite protection to stand up to a school shooter then the money paid for salaries/training/equipment could be spent on something else instead. It makes no sense to pay them, train them, equip them and then to make excuses for them when they don't do their job.

Well said and I agree.

I don't know exactly where the failure was. The attack on Benghazi Embassy comes to mind. Best Warriors were ready,willing and able. Somewhere the command was "Stand Down". Was it the White House? I don't know.

As the movie "13 Hours" depicts, a handful of Warriors defied the stand down orders. Some died. Who failed?

I don't know. I suspect with effective COMMAND, the Uvalde PD could,and would handle one child murdering punk coward. A perfectly good engine won't run if the ignition switch is "Off"

[thallub]

Troopers at Uvalde talked about taking on the shooter:

UVALDE, Texas - Sinclair San Antonio has obtained new body camera video of the Uvalde School Tragedy that has never been seen by the public. The video, given to us by sources, captures troopers talking about the need to confront the shooter, but no one takes steps to do that.

https://news4sanantonio.com/newslett...school-tragedy

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by thallub

Troopers at Uvalde talked about taking on the shooter:



https://news4sanantonio.com/newslett...school-tragedy

Talking it, but not walking it is a common problem in the US these days. If anything this infuriates me more because they all know what the protocol is, but would rather have a group therapy session than exchange lead.