Testing Loads

[ninosdemente]

I have been getting my feet wet with loading 30-06 and .223 and have been looking at videos on testing loads. I started with 55gr and now loading with 69gr and have used Vmax, Nosler CC and Barnes. All of these have been loaded at starting loads. Have been using IMR 4064 and Varget. I know tests consists of other powders/brands. But for what I have at the moment wanting to go further and see what and how to determine what gives me a better result if applicable for my rifle. As mentioned, have been looking at videos but the search has yielded many forms of testing on youtube.

Is there a process that is widely accepted and/or used in order for one to find out what one's firearm likes better? I am testing on Savage 12FV 223.

Weight, powders and brands have been chosen from reading online what has worked/used for others and from here as well along with recommended from here. I understand one's results doesn't indicate it will apply to me or yield the same results. At least for me, this has been a starting point for me and I will eventually might/have to try other powders/weights/brands down the road.

[Bfglowkey]

Before you start a new load ask yourself what it's for? Hunting? Paper/steel? Varmints? Then define your max distance desired. That will lead you to bullet selection. Brass wise I believe we should always use the best we can acquire. Budgets vary so you make due with what you can swing. Powders are what you have reasonably available to you on a regular basis. Primers are like powders.
Once you have the purpose and gather your ingredients..then begin load development.

[hounddawg]

I agree with Bfglowkey, first you need to establish what your goals are then establish were you are at. Establish goals and work towards them, be realistic with yourself as far as your shooting skills. A lot of reloading problems can be solved by more trigger time.

I assume you have read the basics on reloading by now. Lintz and Bower have some excellent advanced books. If you have not read them yet then take the time to do so if precision reloading is your goal. After reading evaluate your procedures and refine with retaining what works while discarding what doesn't. Use common sense and experiment with different components.

[ninosdemente]

Thanks guys. Yes read the basics of reloading.

My realistic goals are for paper only at least for the .223. The 30-06 will be for hunting deer. For now want to concentrate on .223.

My max distance at the moment is geared for 200yds since that is the farthest the range has where I go. I do still have a lot of practicing but I know have to work at it. Not the worst but nowhere near good to where I want to be. Perhaps I should upload a picture of the last target and let you guys give me your opinion. At least to help me "analyze" if that is an appropriate word. Curious, for this type of testing is it best to start at 100yds? Reason why I ask is because I usually am at 50yds as my son is with me when I go to range. Don't get me wrong, glad he comes with me so I will always put him first before me and until he decides he doesn't want to go one day I plan to go, which almost never happens. Lol.

Will look up the books recommend hounddawg, thanks.

[jpx2rk]

IMO, do you initial load development at 100 yds, 50 yds does not show/indicate much.

I have a FV12 223 and during my load development phase for this rifle, (primary purpose is paper and pdogs) I wanted an accurate load with an explosive bullet. Go to Nosler's web site for their reloading data and it will give you numerous load combo's to try. I had 10# of Varget on hand so I started with that powder. The data indicated Varget's most accurate load was 23.0g and I loaded some up to test.

A good starting point is to follow their specs (brass, primer, OAL, etc) and adjust from there. I determined that my FV12 prefers LC brass, and I changed the primer to S&B's which tightened the groups just a bit/hair more. I do use Nosler 55g Varmegeddon bullets, both tipped and hollow points for this load. The OAL's are slightly different due to bullet shape, but I can shoot a 10 shot string of this load (5 of the tipped and 5 of the HP's) mixing them up in random order or alternating and the group size does not change significantly. I even had a range buddy do this test with 10 shots, and he got the same results.

Load development takes time and some focus. Take/make good notes so you know what you've done/tested to avoid re-do's. I realize/respect you want your son to go with you to the range, but you may need to go solo so you can focus on the task at hand to get your basic load developed, then you can fine tune it on a joint trip to the range.

[mgulino]

I agree with all the advice that has been posted for you so far, and I would add one thing.

When you work up loads, only change one thing at a time. For example, I started my 223 work up with Federal brass, Win small rifle primers, and H335 under Hornady’s 55gr SPBT FMJ. All cases were prepped/trimmed the same and all bullets seated to the same COL. Using load data from three sources, I started at the low end and worked up in .5 grain increments to find the load that gave me a desired velocity and accuracy at 100 yards. Once I settled on that load (and I had to return to the bench and disassemble a few that were loaded heavier) I reloaded another batch around my best .5 grain load, this time in .1 grains increments, to find the sweet spot.

When I changed to CCI primers, I did the same all over again, and for my gun and loads there was a different sweet spot. I would recommend starting over anytime anything changes, case brand, primer brand, bullet weight/shape, and especially powder.

[David R]

50 yards is ok to start. Shoot some factory stuff for a baseline so you can have comparison. Once you have a better idea of your own loads, move out.

I learned respect for factory loads when I started reloading.

Enjoy, it’s another hobby.

David

[m&p45acp10+1]

I have the 12FVSS in .223 with a decent load it is hard to find a load that does not shoot well in it. I load a great shooting economy load of 55 grain VMax with H335. For the heavier weights I go with Reloader15. Varget will do what RL15 will for the most part. It just so happens that the same loads that shoot so well in my bolt action shoot well in my AR too.

I run all mixed head stamp brass. The load I use you would be hard pressed to show a change in POI with segregating brass by weight, or case capacity. I keep my loads at standard magazine length so they will load into my AR mags.

[hounddawg]

a good start on a precision reloading bookshelf

https://www.amazon.com/Book-Rifle-Ac.../dp/0982678800

https://www.amazon.com/Pet-Loads-Com...rds=ken+waters


https://www.amazon.com/Applied-Balli...rds=bryan+Litz

[ninosdemente]

Thanks again for the help/tips/suggestions guys. Very much appreciated. This for sure is a starting point for me plus winter is here so I will have plenty of time to work on this.

jpx2rk, I have Nosler 7 book and on there 69gr is not listed. I checked online and also on their 8th book, 69gr is not listed. It only goes up to 64gr. What does this mean other than the obvious its not listed. I know there are other books that have it listed as the Lyman 50th does list this weight and higher.

Hounddawg, thanks for the links. I actually found this in pdf version: https://www.amazon.com/Long-Range-Sh...6XMK0JGYV6Y08D

After doing a search yesterday... did see so many books out there. Not a surprise as there are many books out there for other peoples interests. Just difficult to choose which will be a good starting point if one doesn't ask for a little help.

[T. O'Heir]

"...what it's for?..." Absolutely. Pick one cartridge or rifle. Your Savage will do nicely. Then pick the bullet weight according the rifling twist. (The brand makes no difference at all. 69 grains is 69 grains. You do not load according to who made the bullet.) Pick the construction of the bullet according to what you're loading for. As in varmints, targets, deer if it's legal, etc. Then the powder. Usually best to start with whatever powder is given for the accuracy load in your manual. And work up the load.
No powder throwers when you're working up the load either. Weigh each charge, loading 5(or a mag load) of each and go up by .5 to the max load. Stripper clips are really handy things for keeping 'em separate, but so is a factory box.
You get to start over if you change the bullet weight. You should start over if you change any one component too. Never noticed enough difference when changing just a primer though. The brand of case makes no difference.
"...only goes up to 64gr..." Close enough. The 5 grains won't matter. There's lots of 69 grain data on-line though. The Nosler 7 book will only have stuff that No$ler makes. However, they list heavier than 64 grain bullets under 5.56NATO.

[hounddawg]

A Nosler 69 gn and a Sierra 69 gn are almost identical bullets, so Sierra load data is good.

http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads...223rembolt.pdf

[ninosdemente]

T. O'Heir, thanks for the explanation and help.

[ninosdemente]

Thanks for the link hounddawg. What do you mean by both being identical bullets? Curious, not calling you out. Lol.

[std7mag]

Nino,

To me it doesn't matter what purpose the load is for. An accurate load is an accurate load, be it hunting,or target. Only difference is what bullet to pick.

And a 69gr bullet, is not a 69 gr bullet as T.O. would have us believe.
Check out Alliant's load data for 69 gr bullet in 223. Same powder, different amounts for different makes of bullets.

Pick your bullet, and your powder. Start at start loads, and do a ladder test. You rifle will tell you what charge weight it likes.

[ninosdemente]

Thanks std7mag. Do you mind if I ask you how you pick your bullet?

[RC20]

It takes some sorting and that is the nature of this.

Its why I like Hornady and Sierra Books. Most calibers and family of bullets, have a wide variety of powders listed.

Go online and you will find which ones are the more common go to.

Varget is good power used right as is 4064.

With guns yo9u can just go with tendencies.

Sierras shows 4064 over a range of 223 bullet weight as well as Varget. Good choice.

Then its a matter of bullet weight and twist and what generally they like - some are happy outside the range and some are not.

Once you find a node then you can change the COAL to see where it likes it best.

I don't do ladder tests, I don't hve the distance to do so most range sessions.

I just star low and work up at 3/10 and .020 off the lands and see what looks promising.

Usualy if starting new I load 10 of each, two 5 shot groups.

You tend to find one node lower down and another node or two higher up.

[hounddawg]

same weight, practically same ogive when laid side by side

[std7mag]

Nino,
Picking the right bullet lies in what your trying to accomplish.
For hunting (take note for your 06') i know from experience that Nosler Ballistic Tips are accurate and perform well on game. (165gr for 06')

After much research i found that Bergers original VLD target bullet is now their VLD Hunting bullet. Accuracy is very good, and performance on game can be amazing.

I bought a box of Noslers Accubond Long Range to try, yup at the range.
Performed very well out to 600 yards. So i"m going to try them on game in my 7mm Rem Mag, and 284 custom Mauser.

For target work, there are a bunch of good bullet choices as well.
Sierra MatchKings are pretty much the standard.
Nosler, Hornady, Berger, and Lapua all make excellent target bullets.

For the MatchKings the new Tipped MatchKing gives better BCs.
I'm shooting 69gr MK, TMK out of my wifes Savage 110FP in 223.
At longer ranges the TMK is blown around less by the wind.

[std7mag]

Hounddawg,

It's not the ogive that you worry about when doing a new load.
It's the shoulder length, material, construction.

[hounddawg]

Hounddawg,

It's not the ogive that you worry about when doing a new load.
It's the shoulder length, material, construction.

I have had both sitting on my shelf at the same time and tested the two side by side both using same powder charges. When talking about the 69 SMK non tipped HPBT and the Nosler CC they are practically identical. Both are .224 in diameter and weigh 69.0 gns appx. Both are HPBT's and measure .90 inches. Both are made of lead and have a medium thick copper jacket. One or the other has a slightly smaller meplat but for all practical measures are identical bullets and can be loaded exactly the same.

The Nosler CC is considerably cheaper and shoots superbly which is why I can't take a picture of a SMK and a Nosler side by side. There are probably a dozen or so SMK's mixed in with whats left of a 1000 round box of Noslers but a magnifying glass and a lot of time looking at meplats would be the only way to find them.

My AR's both love both of those bullets loaded to magazine length with some Varget or TAC but my bolt gun only shoots them so so. It likes 77 and 80's much better

I don't think Nosler is shy about taking SMK's and pretty much copying them and re marketing as Custom Competition. Check out the 6.5 123 SMK and 123 Nosler CC as another example

[ninosdemente]

RC20, do know it will take time and I am willing to take the time. Not that one really has any other choice if one is trying to accomplish such task I imagine. Lol.

Perhaps, my somewhat downfall is that I still go to Cabela's and go off from that. I don't do any shopping online for reloading materials or hardware for that matter. Perhaps by this thinking I am just closing doors on myself rather than opening them. Sierra is limited, had a bad experience with VMAX and tend to stay away from Hornady, and there is a lot of Nosler options available for my caliber. Not trying to go crazy on testing as have to be realistic, still have a lot of time behind the trigger to get better. So at least in the back of my mind, wonder if my shooting skills can possibly provide "inaccurate" results. Meaning thinking that this specific load might be the one.

---

std7mag, funny I do have Nosler BT 150gr as testing. Not where I want to be but then again as mentioned, my skills are not that great or I am not adjusting the scope properly for this firearm. No problem with the scope on the Savage, so this is having me believe it is strictly user error. I did purhcase the Nosler BT 165gr. Haven't loaded those yet until I finish the 150gr.

[Unclenick]

Ninodesmente,

Nosler does have the 69-grain bullet data. It is just under 5.56×45 NATO instead of 223 Remington. The reason is their 223 Rem test barrel has a 12" twist and their 64-grain bullet was the heaviest it could stabilize. Their 5.56×45 NATO test barrel has a 7" twist, so it can handle all the heavies. I compared their 5.56 loads to the same bullet weight loads in Hodgdon's data for 223 Remington with H335 and Varget. The Hodgdon maximums were the same or higher, so the 5.56 data Nosler put up is not at the warmer M855/SS109 or still warmer M855A1 pressures. Just good old M193 pressure, which matches SAAMI's 223 pressure. Unlike some other chamberings (308 in particular) 5.56 brass has no less capacity than commercial brass and is interchangeable for pressure purposes. It's main advantage is in self-loaders as the harder heads stand up to extraction better. The external case dimensions are the same.

Your gun's 9" twist will be fine with the 69-grain standard match bullets, but not the longer 69-grain VLD's or the lengths and, in theory, it should stabilize some of the 77-grain match bullets, but that's kind of a shaky subject as some folks with 9" twist guns find the stubby 77's work well for them and others do not. Berger recommends an 8" rifling pitch when you get to their version of that bullet, but it is longer than the Nosler and Sierra versions. Even barrel twists have a tolerance, and a barrel whose twist is on the long side of tolerance vs one on the short side of it may make a critical difference.

Your powders are on the slow side for the 55's. Reloader 10X, Benchmark, H322 and H335 should work well with it. Under some circumstances, the slow powders can cause barrel ringing when used with too light a bullet.

Unlike the others, I'll suggest you do all your accuracy testing at 200 yards. When the accuracy gets good, more range is better and, in general, 300 yards is considered best as it is long enough for muzzle velocity variation to show up as change in bullet drop.

I'll suggest reading Dan Newberry's OCW method.

The older Audette ladder method is in the second part of this old post.

More folks seem to try to find velocity flat spots these days, but I haven't had the opportunity to see how that compares to the other two methods yet, so my jury of one remains out on that subject.

Good luck with it!

[hounddawg]

More folks seem to try to find velocity flat spots these days, but I haven't had the opportunity to see how that compares to the other two methods yet, so my jury of one remains out on that subject.

I only worry about low ES and SD for 500 and out. I am taking this load in two different directions.

for 300 and less I will use the 40gn load. I may try a few other primers to get ES and SD down and use it for long range also. I might even load up 5 at 39.9 or 39.8 to shoot over the chrono. I would bet money there is a flat spot there just below 40.0

https://imgur.com/JlvAgEU

for 500 + I am running further tests between 41.5 and 41.8 at 300. See how it groups and if it maintains over the course of 20 shots. If I get flat velocity I will play with bullet seating fine tuning in .003 to .005 increments to tighten the groups

https://imgur.com/S3cHsw4

when I load develop now I do the brunt of it at 100. First doing a rough seating test Berger style 5 shots each looking for grouping patterns, then 3 shot load test across a chrono. I try and shoot as well as I can but my main interest is velocity. Then I analyze the two tests and refine at 300 with small changes to load and seating

3 or 5 shots do not make a winning load or a stable velocity, but they can show you where to look. When you can put 20 sub MOA that is a good load.

Some key points to remember is

Large groups usually repeat;
Large groups with large standard deviations always repeat;
Small groups caused by luck never repeat. - https://northamericanarms.com/ballistics/stddev/



BTW I will trust bullet manufacturer data over powder manufacturer data any day of the week in the future. I have Sierra and Hornady but by the end of the month the Nosler and Berger manuals will be joining them

[Unclenick]

Small groups caused by luck never repeat.

Unfortunately, they do...eventually. This is how we get shooters who spend a whole day at the range shooting 3-shot groups until they get one really tight one, then proclaim it proves what the gun and ammo can do when they do their part, and then pack up and go home to revel in their illusion.