Rules regarding a loaned NFA item?

SC4006 · August 31, 2015, 03:34 PM

So I follow quite a few different gun related YouTube channels, Hickok45 being one of them. Quite often he, as well as other channels, will make a video with an NFA item that was loaned to them; sometimes it's a full auto firearm, SBR, or suppressor.

This got me thinking, does the NFA have any type of rules for someone loaning an NFA item to someone who hasn't taken the necessary steps to own one themselves? Could someone technically "loan" an NFA item to someone forever? If a popular channel like Hickok45 is making a video with a loaned NFA item, then obviously that in of itself is not illegal, but how would the ATF even know how long it was loaned for?

Sharkbite · August 31, 2015, 04:51 PM

As far as i know, you CANNOT loan any NFA weapon to anyone. It must be in the possession of the individual, Corp, Trust that the BATF approved on the form with the tax stamp.

Thats for "civilian" owned items. Dealer samples and LE guns have different rules.

How Hickock 45 is being "loaned" NFA items is unclear to me.

Sharkbite · August 31, 2015, 05:51 PM

That said....

If i wanted to loan you one of my NFA weapons, i could add you on to my trust as a trustee and you could then legally have and use any of the items on that trust just as i can.

dakota.potts · August 31, 2015, 06:05 PM

Maybe Hicock has an FFL for the purposes of maintaining the YouTube channel? Then he could have the gun transferred to him on a Form 3 IIRC. He could also have the guys from the FFL there at the Ranch, just not on camera, since he usually gets them from a company in NC, where he lives IIRC.

SC4006 · August 31, 2015, 06:24 PM

Quote:

He could also have the guys from the FFL there at the Ranch

That's quite possible. He showcases NFA items quite often it seems from a place called NC silencer. Not sure they would want to send someone over for every video though. Maybe he could have an FFL, or NC silencer somehow has him as a trustee?

Whatever he does I know he is smart, so I know he wouldn't commit an illegal act and post it on YouTube for the world to see.

James K · August 31, 2015, 09:06 PM

AFAIK, the owner of an NFA weapon can't "loan" it to anyone if that means that he loses constructive possession of it. He can allow someone else to fire the gun as long as he is present. But to "loan" it to someone to take home, no.

Jim

Theohazard · September 1, 2015, 02:33 AM

You can't transfer your NFA item to anyone else without doing it properly via a Form 4. The ATF's definition of "transfer" includes the word "loan", so you can't loan your NFA item to anyone else:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATF

The term “transfer” is broadly defined by the NFA to include “selling, assigning, pledging, leasing, loaning, giving away, or otherwise disposing of” an NFA firearm.

Only the registered owner of an NFA item (or a trustee if it's owned by a trust, or a corporate officer or employee if it's owned by a corporation) can possess the item. However, the precise definition of "loan" seems to be somewhat controversial, and not being a lawyer I won't weigh in on that argument. That said, it seems that the way the ATF enforces the law is that it's fine to let someone else shoot your NFA item as long as you're present.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC4006

He showcases NFA items quite often it seems from a place called NC silencer. Not sure they would want to send someone over for every video though. Maybe he could have an FFL, or NC silencer somehow has him as a trustee?

An FFL/SOT like NC Silencer doesn't own their NFA items through a trust, they just own them outright. Unless Hickok45 was an employee of NC Silencer, he couldn't possess their NFA items without an NC Silencer employee present:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATF

No “transfer” under the NFA occurs when an FFL/SOT permits a bona fide employee to take custody of its registered NFA firearms for purposes within the employee’s scope of employment and for the business purposes of the FFL/SOT. Therefore, no approved ATF transfer form is required when employees take custody of firearms under these circumstances.

Without NC Silencer transferring their NFA items to him via a Form 4, a tax stamp, and a several-month wait, I can't think of any possible way to make it legal for Hickok45 to use them without having an employee of NC Silencer present.

Sharkbite · September 1, 2015, 09:52 AM

I would bet that there is a "Employee" standing there off camera. Nothing else makes sense (or is legal), unless Hickok 45 is an employee of that company himself.

He may be part of the advertising dept. that would make it all legal

Skans · September 1, 2015, 10:22 AM

I can't imagine loaning out an NFA item to anyone, even if it were permissible. I will let a buddy shoot one of my NFA items with me standing right next to them. Beyond that, forget it! Come to think of it, I don't lend ordinary guns out to anyone unless I'm shooting with them either. Now, if a neighbor needs a hand saw or hammer, I'm a little more generous.

Theohazard · September 1, 2015, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharkbite

He may be part of the advertising dept. that would make it all legal

Good point, though I wonder what the exact definition of "bona fide employee" is. If all he does is make off-site videos that mention NC Silencer occasionally, I would think that the ATF might take issue with NC Silencer listing him as an employee. Plus, wouldn't that mean they would have to pay him money in addition to letting him use their NFA items in his videos? Because I doubt the ATF would consider someone a "bona fide employee" if they didn't get paid. But I really don't know how strict they are with that kind of thing.

I'll bet they have an employee present off-camera in those videos. That's gotta be the easiest and cheapest way to do it: It simply costs NC Silencer gas money and one employee's wages for the time it takes to drive there and back, plus the time it takes to film a short video. And for that they get advertising on one of the most popular YouTube gun channels.

James K · September 1, 2015, 05:32 PM

I am pretty sure the folks here are a lot more worried about that situation than BATFE is. As long as there are no accidents or cases of a shooter going berserk (or an inquiry from an anti-gun Senator), I doubt very much they really know or care about the status of the shooter.

Jim

OcSpeed · September 26, 2015, 01:25 PM

I've watched a couple of Hickock45's videos and he clearly states he borrowing it from XXXX who is right here but off camera.

August 31, 2015, 03:34 PM	#1
SC4006 Senior Member Join Date: June 27, 2012 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 525	Rules regarding a loaned NFA item? So I follow quite a few different gun related YouTube channels, Hickok45 being one of them. Quite often he, as well as other channels, will make a video with an NFA item that was loaned to them; sometimes it's a full auto firearm, SBR, or suppressor. This got me thinking, does the NFA have any type of rules for someone loaning an NFA item to someone who hasn't taken the necessary steps to own one themselves? Could someone technically "loan" an NFA item to someone forever? If a popular channel like Hickok45 is making a video with a loaned NFA item, then obviously that in of itself is not illegal, but how would the ATF even know how long it was loaned for? __________________ I don't always go to the range, but when I do, I prefer dosAKs. They say 5 out of 4 people are bad at math.

August 31, 2015, 06:05 PM	#4
dakota.potts Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2013 Location: Keystone Heights, Florida Posts: 3,084	Maybe Hicock has an FFL for the purposes of maintaining the YouTube channel? Then he could have the gun transferred to him on a Form 3 IIRC. He could also have the guys from the FFL there at the Ranch, just not on camera, since he usually gets them from a company in NC, where he lives IIRC. __________________ Certified Gunsmith (On Hiatus) Certified Armorer - H&K and Glock Among Others You can find my writings at my website, pottsprecision.com.

August 31, 2015, 04:51 PM	#2
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	As far as i know, you CANNOT loan any NFA weapon to anyone. It must be in the possession of the individual, Corp, Trust that the BATF approved on the form with the tax stamp. Thats for "civilian" owned items. Dealer samples and LE guns have different rules. How Hickock 45 is being "loaned" NFA items is unclear to me.

August 31, 2015, 05:51 PM	#3
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	That said.... If i wanted to loan you one of my NFA weapons, i could add you on to my trust as a trustee and you could then legally have and use any of the items on that trust just as i can.

August 31, 2015, 09:06 PM	#6
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	AFAIK, the owner of an NFA weapon can't "loan" it to anyone if that means that he loses constructive possession of it. He can allow someone else to fire the gun as long as he is present. But to "loan" it to someone to take home, no. Jim

September 1, 2015, 09:52 AM	#8
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	I would bet that there is a "Employee" standing there off camera. Nothing else makes sense (or is legal), unless Hickok 45 is an employee of that company himself. He may be part of the advertising dept. that would make it all legal

September 1, 2015, 10:22 AM	#9
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	I can't imagine loaning out an NFA item to anyone, even if it were permissible. I will let a buddy shoot one of my NFA items with me standing right next to them. Beyond that, forget it! Come to think of it, I don't lend ordinary guns out to anyone unless I'm shooting with them either. Now, if a neighbor needs a hand saw or hammer, I'm a little more generous.

September 1, 2015, 05:32 PM	#11
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I am pretty sure the folks here are a lot more worried about that situation than BATFE is. As long as there are no accidents or cases of a shooter going berserk (or an inquiry from an anti-gun Senator), I doubt very much they really know or care about the status of the shooter. Jim

September 26, 2015, 01:25 PM	#12
OcSpeed Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: the greater unknown Posts: 123	I've watched a couple of Hickock45's videos and he clearly states he borrowing it from XXXX who is right here but off camera.