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Old January 18, 2021, 06:22 PM   #51
jmr40
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All that energy for a non JHP, interesting.
We are basically copying the Russians who developed a new 9mm pistol recently that would shoot standard 9mm ammo or some pretty hot FMJ designed to defeat body armor.

https://www.defensereview.com/russia...-applications/
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Old January 19, 2021, 12:09 PM   #52
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Makes me wonder if my 9mm Fiocchi was +p or +p+. That was some pretty snappy stuff.
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Old January 20, 2021, 04:40 AM   #53
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screw SAAMI

Quote:
anything over 35,000psi is overpressure, hence what designations such as "+P" indicate
Let me be utterly clear: A SAAMI +P+ designation means, specifically, no pressure standard met.

It does not mean anything other than the manufacturer does not care about the pressure; it may be anywhere on the spectrum.
It just doesn't adhere to SAAMI.
'We' normally consider +P+ to mean high pressure, but it is not always so.


Ask me how I know.
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Old January 20, 2021, 04:41 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by TunnelRat View Post
How can a heavier projectile (124 gr vs. 115 gr) at a lower pressure (we've established 9mm NATO is typically 36,500 PSI whereas M1152 is 39,700 PSI) go as fast?
There's no difficulty in making that happen with different powders. Peak pressure is not the variable to focus on. A load with a high peak pressure but a very steep decline in pressure while the bullet is still traveling in the bore can produce a lower muzzle velocity for a given projectile than a load with a lower peak pressure but a much less steep pressure curve.

It's a calculus problem. Focus on the area under the pressure-travel curve -- the average pressure exerted on the projectile by the propellant -- not solely the peak pressure figure, which is achieved for only a very small fraction of the time that the bullet is in the barrel.
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Old January 20, 2021, 08:11 AM   #55
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The US military is shooting +P+ now?

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Originally Posted by AustinTX View Post
There's no difficulty in making that happen with different powders. Peak pressure is not the variable to focus on. A load with a high peak pressure but a very steep decline in pressure while the bullet is still traveling in the bore can produce a lower muzzle velocity for a given projectile than a load with a lower peak pressure but a much less steep pressure curve.

It's a calculus problem. Focus on the area under the pressure-travel curve -- the average pressure exerted on the projectile by the propellant -- not solely the peak pressure figure, which is achieved for only a very small fraction of the time that the bullet is in the barrel.

Good point, thank you.

Though in this particular case Fiocchi doesn’t list a cartridge on its website that performs as was suggested.


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Old January 20, 2021, 10:06 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by WESHOOT2 View Post
Let me be utterly clear: A SAAMI +P+ designation means, specifically, no pressure standard met.

It does not mean anything other than the manufacturer does not care about the pressure; it may be anywhere on the spectrum.
It just doesn't adhere to SAAMI.
'We' normally consider +P+ to mean high pressure, but it is not always so.


Ask me how I know.
How do you know?

Are you saying that +P+ could mean the pressure is within standard non+P pressure limits?
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Old January 21, 2021, 12:25 AM   #57
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I know of at least one commercial 9mm +P+ loading that conforms to SAAMI 9mm +P standards. When I contacted them, the manufacturer stated that the pressure was, in fact, the maximum allowable 9mm +P pressure.

I have speculated that perhaps the manufacturer was concerned that the loading might exceed 9mm +P in certain circumstances (e.g. high temperatures) and therefore felt like they should market it as +P+ to be safe. But I don't know for sure why they made the decision.
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Old January 21, 2021, 08:47 AM   #58
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For what it's worth the M1152 isn't marked anywhere as being +P+



The box has a small warning that it is loaded 10% to 15% higher than industry standard.
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Old January 21, 2021, 10:13 AM   #59
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The US military is shooting +P+ now?

Which I believe is the same warning on their commercial “NATO” product.


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Old January 21, 2021, 01:27 PM   #60
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Quote:
How do you know?

Are you saying that +P+ could mean the pressure is within standard non+P pressure limits?
As a former manufacturer I was privy to SAAMI info.
And yes, +P+ ammo can be within SAAMI specs, and in fact can be 'standard', low, or over-SAAMI pressures.
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Old January 21, 2021, 05:03 PM   #61
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S&B 9mm 115gr (normal 9mm 115gr load) is 1,280FPS
https://www.sellierbellot.us/product...es/detail/290/

Fiocchi 9APHP is at 1250fps.

Fiocchi 9AP 115gr was printed at 1250fps until a bit ago.

Both Fiocchi loads are not marked +P but Fiocchi does have a +P 38 special round...

Whinchster RA9115HP at 1335FPS on the box.

Federal Classic is 1300fps.
https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammuniti...ls.aspx?id=526

Speer Gold Dot 53612 is 1300fps on the box.

124gr +P can clock in at 1300fps in full sized 5" barrel.

9mm Major your looking at 1400FPS.

This is not a magic or unique round.


Didn't even mention BB, DT, Underwood with their lack of pressure testing compared to Federal/Speer/etc.
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Old January 21, 2021, 05:10 PM   #62
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Have to do conversions yourself, but the fiocchi non usa website:

https://www.fiocchi.com/en/category/...ne-cal-9-luger

meters per second conversion to feet per second.

There are your 1300fps fiocchi loads.
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Old January 21, 2021, 05:59 PM   #63
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The US military is shooting +P+ now?

Fiocchi has a USA website with FPS measurements there. Fastest thing listed is at 1280 FPS. It’s a 100 gr bullet, not 124 gr which is what was stated in the comment I originally responded to and the comment AustinTX is quoting.

https://fiocchiusa.com/shop/ammo/handguns/9-luger.html

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Old January 21, 2021, 07:14 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by wild cat mccane View Post

Didn't even mention BB, DT, Underwood with their lack of pressure testing compared to Federal/Speer/etc.
Who said BB, DT, Underwood doesn't pressure test? Did they say so?
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Old January 21, 2021, 07:30 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by wild cat mccane View Post
S&B 9mm 115gr (normal 9mm 115gr load) is 1,280FPS
https://www.sellierbellot.us/product...es/detail/290/
From a 6" barrel.
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Old January 22, 2021, 02:37 AM   #66
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Yes. Don't go to the Fiocchi USA website.

If you have Fiocchi in that green/red box before the recent change, you're likely dealing with these:

https://www.fiocchi.com/en/category/...istol-revolver

Federal Classic +P+ still being made. 1,300FPS.
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Old January 22, 2021, 06:13 AM   #67
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Who said BB, DT, Underwood doesn't pressure test? Did they say so?
pretty certain they do....
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Old January 22, 2021, 07:57 AM   #68
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The US military is shooting +P+ now?

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Originally Posted by wild cat mccane View Post
Yes. Don't go to the Fiocchi USA website.

If you have Fiocchi in that green/red box before the recent change, you're likely dealing with these:

https://www.fiocchi.com/en/category/...istol-revolver

Federal Classic +P+ still being made. 1,300FPS.

The fastest velocity listed at that link is 390 m/s, which is 1280 FPS. It’s a 115 gr bullet.

The only reason I even commented about this again was because AustinTX made a point about total pressure versus peak pressure. I really have no desire to go through a series of back and forth with you again. It’s one cartridge variant from one manufacturer. It’s not really something to get worked up over.


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Old January 22, 2021, 10:24 AM   #69
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And I'm just saying that round is nothing special and the world "developed" is being used to make the buyer believe a 9mm 115gr at 1300fps on a truncated bullet is new, believe this is the US military round, and it's being shot in mass.

It isn't.



The magazine articles that just keep citing each other are wrong. Proven by financial data that this round isn't even a small portion of the US military's training. (though written a while back and the finance data is current)
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Old January 22, 2021, 10:59 AM   #70
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I assume they don't pressure check.

Look at BB website FAQ question 1 talking about the .380 +P
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...ct_list&c=62#1.

BB says they have shot their ammo through LCPs. They don't say they pressure check their ammo like the big manufactures (include Winchester that this thread is about)
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Old January 22, 2021, 12:12 PM   #71
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I assume they don't pressure check.
So you made it up out of thin air. That's all we need to know.
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Old January 22, 2021, 04:52 PM   #72
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If they are selling ".380 +P" which isn't a SAAMI or CIP rating which are the two standards for pressure checking...how do you suggest they are pressure checking their ammo?
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Old January 22, 2021, 06:28 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by wild cat mccane View Post
If they are selling ".380 +P" which isn't a SAAMI or CIP rating which are the two standards for pressure checking...how do you suggest they are pressure checking their ammo?
You said BB, DT and Underwood don't pressure test their ammo. This statement requires evidence to support it.

Did you ask BB, DT or Underwood if they test the chamber pressure of their loads? Did you? You just said you made it up. Re-read your post.

You just said you made it up. Do you not understand what you said? I find it concerning that you would make something up out of thin air, since this erodes your reputation for posting factual information, and folks would have a good reason to not believe your future and past posts.

Ironically, if they say they are selling +p 380 ammo, it implies they tested chamber pressure in order to make that statement, otherwise they would not know that it was over standard pressure limits. It's certainly not an argument for not pressure testing their ammo.
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Old January 22, 2021, 07:25 PM   #74
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https://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_P_ammo.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Hawks
How about the "+P" cartridges for calibers such as the .32 ACP and .380 ACP that are offered by some specialty ammo makers, such as Buffalo Bore? The answer, as far as I can determine, is that there are no SAAMI standards for +P ammunition in these calibers.

Ammunition so labeled is not true +P. It is either loaded to the standard SAAMI MAP for the cartridge (perhaps right at the upper limit), or loaded to higher than permissible (thus potentially dangerous) pressure. The former is a marketing gimmick to stimulate sales and the latter (over-pressure loads) are not safe for use in all guns and may degrade your pistol's reliability and longevity.
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Old January 25, 2021, 09:51 AM   #75
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Not to be a pill, but here is another marketing lie to consumers. This time by Remington (just bought by Northrop Grumman--capitalism created an ammo monopoly) who does not currently produce over run or any run for the military:

https://www.weaponspro.com/products/...mb9mm3upc-3460
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