How commonly is this done?

[the45er]

A friend has given me to sell for him a Colt Single Action Army. It is an old one but has been rebarreled and the cylinder fitted to a 38 spl. It was originally a 41cal. It is fully functional and shoots 38’s just fine with the few rounds I’ve shot through it.

I’m still concerned about the long term functionality of the revolver. Can a gunsmith determine the integrity of this conversion? The last thing I want to do is sell someone a defective or even dangerous firearm.

[105kw]

It was fairly common to convert uncommon caliber Colts to 38 Specil.
Gun Parts used to sell Colt manufactured barrels and cylinders for this purpose.
If the frame is smokeless rated, which I believe is 1900, I wouldn't worry. 38 Special is fairly low pressure, and a 38 Spec. cylinder has a lot of metal between the chambers.
It would still be prudent to take it to a Gun Smith to have it checked.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

38 special can produce a lot more pressure than black powder guns can handle.

It's not that 38spl is so powerful, just that black powder produces so little pressure.

You can make a gun out of cast iron or brass and it will handle BP just fine.

If you want to be safe load your cartridges with BP only.

[44 AMP]

38 special can produce a lot more pressure than black powder guns can handle.

Not when loaded to industry specs. It IS blackpowder pressure levels.

GO "off the map" with smokeless, any cartridge can produce dangerous pressure levels.

Your conversion is safe, pressure wise, and since the few rounds you've fired have been fine it appears to be mechanically timed safely. IF you have doubts, have a gunsmith check it.

There is no conclusive evidence that I'm aware of saying black powder guns suffer catastrophic failure loaded with the correct amount of smokeless producing the same pressures as black powder.

The problem when BP guns do fail catastrophically when shooting smokeless is usually somebody stuffing in more smokeless (and/or the wrong kind) because there is room to do so. And, its easy to do...


Point here is its a virtual certainty that your Colt has a .38 barrel and cylinder made for smokeless powder use. It probably has a smokeless powder rated frame (post 1900). Look and see what holds the cylinder base pin in place. It its a screw its a black powder era frame, if its a spring loaded plunger its a smokeless era frame.

If you want, take it to a qualified gunsmith, have them do an assessment of its condition and get it written up on their letterhead, condition, date examined, everything they did, and checked. Put that document with the gun when it goes up for sale. Include the cost of the gunsmith in the asking price if you want. It would be fair.

[Mike Irwin]

I've seen a couple of .41 Colts so converted.

After World War II production of .41 Colt ammo didn't really resume, and I believe by 1960s it was pretty much out of production entirely.

[bedbugbilly]

Is it a BP frame or a smokeless frame? The serial number ought to be helpful on that? Make a post on the Colt Forum and someone there should be able to answer that question for you.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Not when loaded to industry specs. It IS blackpowder pressure levels.

I have said this a million times. Even if a Smokeless cartridge is loaded to the same pressure level as Black Powder, the pressure spike is very different. Most Smokeless powders have a very quick pressure spike, vs Black Powder which has a gentler pressure spike. An old Black Powder cylinder can fail if subjected to the much more rapid pressure spike of Smokeless Powder.

I have several antique Smith and Wesson revolvers and I never shoot them with Smokeless ammo, only my own Black Powder loads.

The cylinder of this Black Powder era Merwin Hulbert revolver experienced a catastrophic failure from a very light Smokeless Powder 44 Russian cartridge.








Let's look at the history of Colt metallurgy for a moment. Starting in 1873, frames and cylinders of the Colt SAA were made from materials closely resembling malleable iron, not steel. In mid 1883 frames and cylinders began to be made from transitional materials, similar to modern low carbon steel. In 1898 Colt began using low-medium carbon steels. By 1900 improved heat treating techniques allowed Colt to factory warranty the SAA for Smokeless Powder. This information comes from Jerry Khunhausen's The Colt Single Action Revolvers. A Shop Manual, Volumes 1&2, the most authoritative book about Colts on the market today.





Back to the original poster: Colt factory warrantied the Single Action Army for Smokeless powder in 1900. Shortly after that Colt began stamping VP in an inverted triangle on the left front of the trigger guard. VP stands for Verified Proof. So if the Original Poster inspects the trigger guard, and finds the VP stamp there is no question the gun was manufactured after 1900 and was safe for standard factory Smokeless ammunition at that time.






If the Original Poster posts the Serial Number here I can look up exactly what year that Colt was made. Be sure to include any letter prefixes or suffixes, they will help zero in on when it was made. If you would like, substitute Xs for the last two numerical digits, but be sure to have the correct number of digits along with any letter prefixes or suffixes.

To be clear, the pressure vessel of a revolver is the cylinder, not the frame. To further clarify, the first Colts that shipped with 38 Special cylinders were in 1930, well into the post-Black Powder era.

So it is very likely that no matter how old the frame, the cylinder will be perfectly fine for Modern SAAMI Spec 38 Special ammunition.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Is it a BP frame or a smokeless frame?

BP Frame (with the screw retaining the cylinder pin) or Smokeless Frame, (with the spring loaded transverse cylinder pin latch, is not a valid indicator of whether the revolver should be fired with Smokeless ammunition. The 'modern' spring loaded transverse cylinder pin latch first appeared on some target models as early as 1882. It became a standard feature in 1896. As I said earlier, Colt did not factory warranty the SAA for Smokeless ammunition until 1900. So there are examples out there with the 'modern' transverse cylinder pin latch that were made before 1900 and should not be fired with Smokeless amm. Again this is thoroughly covered by Kuhnhausen.

No need to go to the Colt Forum, I can easily look up the Serial Number and when it was manufactured.

[Jim Watson]

I have seen it said that the VP smokeless proof did not come in until 1904.
S&W would not warrant for smokeless until 1909 for top break models, although .38 Special went smokeless much earlier and nobody seems to mind shooting an early M&P with fresh ammo.
Smokeless ammunition was readily available at the turn of the century and I bet Grandpa bought it if he could afford it.

No standard load in any caliber will blow up the steel Colt or Christie cylinder of a caliber conversion; I had an old gunzine with an article about a first generation Colt converted to .357 Magnum but it did not give the actual age of the gun.

But will it stretch the frame of an old iron or mild steel gun in the same manner we are told how it will loosen a top break?

I think one difference is the change in attitude. Enthusiasts shoot their guns a LOT, ammo is relatively cheap vs the price of the gun and reloading makes it cheaper yet.
What was the ratio of target shooters to gun owners then vs now? I suspect it was less.

[DaleA]

Driftwood Johnson-really nice photos. I suspect everyone on the site enjoys your posts even if we don't say so every time. Thanks.

[ernie8]

Stating incorrect info a million times does not make it correct . Peak pressure is peak pressure . Smokeless powders are not an explosive , Blackpowder is . Smokeless powders can be found in all different burn rates , from fast to slow . Black can not . Just because someone screwed up a reload for the old revolver , it does not prove your point . Pressure curves of smokeless powers are not hidden , just look them up .

[Bob Wright]

One popular conversion for .41 Colt SAAs back "in the day" was to simply swap out the cylinder to .38-40 (.38 W.C.F.) and no barrel change was necessary. Both the .41 Colt and .38-40 shared bores of .401" or so, as they were not too precise then.

And, such wildcats as the .401 Eimer or .401 Special are encountered.


Bob Wright

[Bob Wright]

It seems that in talking blackpowder/smokeless powdder conversations the sole emphasis is on pressure. Remember that most blackpowder guns of the era were softer steels and were more likely to fail due to metal fatigue. Pressure level for pressure level, the recoil level for smokeless is different and this does contribute to gun failure as well.

Common sense should tell you that for black powder guns, LOAD BLACK POWDER!

Bob Wright

[Driftwood Johnson]

Stating incorrect info a million times does not make it correct . Peak pressure is peak pressure .

Let me put it to you this way. Suppose you are towing a car with a rope attached to the bumper. If you start slowly and slowly increase the pressure, you may be able to move the car. But if you start with a jerk you may break the rope or yank out the bumper. That is what I am talking about. Pressure is pressure, but the way it is applied can be very different. That is what I am talking about with different pressure curves. Yes, there are smokeless powders out there that can imitate the slow curve of Black Powder, but the most common powders used, especially for revolver cartridges, have much faster pressure spikes, and may tend to shock the metal of an older gun.

Don't forget, as I said earlier, the early Colts did not have steel cylinders and frames, they had iron cylinders and frames.

Why would it be that Colt waited until they had improved their metallurgy by 1900 that they would go out on a limb and factory warranty the SAA for Smokeless powder?

Still waiting to hear the serial number of the Colt in question so I can date its year of manufacture.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Driftwood Johnson

Don't forget, as I said earlier, the early Colts did not have steel cylinders and frames, they had iron cylinders and frames.

Why would it be that Colt waited until they had improved their metallurgy by 1900 that they would go out on a limb and factory warranty the SAA for Smokeless powder?

Still waiting to hear the serial number of the Colt in question so I can date its year of manufacture.

Your point is valid, but the seller can't predict what type of smokeless powder an eventual buyer will put through the pistol. Simple solution would be to sell it with the caveat that it should only be fired with commercial "cowboy load" ammunition or equivalent.

I don't understand why you're concerned about what year the gun was manufactured. Isn't the critical part the material used to make the cylinder? If the cylinder that was used in the conversion can handle "cowboy" smokeless loads, I don't see any way the frame itself is going to kaboom.

[cdoc42]

Why not just honor the integrity of his request so he can then explain his reasoning rather than question his intent?

[Driftwood Johnson]

I don't understand why you're concerned about what year the gun was manufactured. Isn't the critical part the material used to make the cylinder? If the cylinder that was used in the conversion can handle "cowboy" smokeless loads, I don't see any way the frame itself is going to kaboom.

As I stated very plainly earlier, I can determine what the cylinder was made from by the date the revolver was made.

Of course the frame is not going to 'kaboom', the cylinder is the pressure vessel of any revolver, and it is the cylinder that can fail.

I stated earlier that cylinders chambered for 38 Special first became available in 1930, well into the Smokeless era. Interestingly enough, these were 1st Gen cylinders and they are very rare, only 27 1st Gens were chambered for 38 Special. 38 Special was a standard chambering for the 2nd Gen, so any 2nd Gen 38 Special cylinder would be completely safe to fire with standard SAAMI loads, so called 'cowboy' loads, which have no official SAAMI standards, would not be needed.

[44 AMP]

Until and unless the OP returns with information allowing it to be determined if the gun is black powder, or smokeless powder rated the point is moot.

If the gun was a .41, as stated, then the window of black gets even smaller as the .41 Colt didn't show up until 1877 and according to what I have didn't get into the SAA until the early mid 1880s and was not chambered in any Colt revolvers after the 1930s.

SO, unless we get information that the frame of the gun he has came from the first 20 years of its approximate 50 year production, then it would be a smokeless rated gun.

On top of that, its a virtual certainty that the .38 special cylinder and barrel were made after 1900 and so would also be smokeless powder rated.

In .38 Special, the Colt SAA is a large, heavy gun, and the round does not stress it significantly. Recoil is light, the gun is NOT battered in any way.

Rebarreling and replacing the cylinder of old SAAs was commonly done, particularly before WWII. According to what I've been able to find out, Numrich and some other gun parts dealers sold lots of those parts, which were made for them BY COLT!

There are no widespread reports of such guns failing, provided the user didn't try to make a magnum out of them....

Personally I wouldn't worry about it. If you are, take it to a gunsmith, get their paid, professional appraisal of its condition and suitablity for use with modern ammunition.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Driftwood Johnson

As I stated very plainly earlier, I can determine what the cylinder was made from by the date the revolver was made.

How does the date of original manufacture tell anything about the date of a replacement cylinder?

[44 AMP]

How does the date of original manufacture tell anything about the date of a replacement cylinder?

The date the gun was manufactured doesn't tell you anything about a replacement cylinder. In some cases, its not impossible to have a frame NEWER than a replacement cylinder.

All the original manufacture date will tell you is when the original parts were made and assembled and went out the factory door. In some cases, this will clearly ID the materials they were made from, and in some cases (during transitional years) the date alone isn't positive ID, and specific features of the gun have to be looked at.

Some folks are focused on the frame, and are way overthinking things, based on the information we have at the moment.

Its an "old" SAA. That COULD mean a gun made during the black powder era, or a gun made after 1900 and before production ended for WWII. IF it was a .41 converted to .38 it won't be one of the post WWII guns as none were made in .41 Colt.

Given the numbers of .41s made, and when, the OP's gun is probably made between 1900 and the 1920s but until he comes back with more info, we just don't KNOW.

I have second hand info, but from a source I trust about an balck powder frame (1895) SAA .41 that was converted to .38 Special in the 1920s and that gun is still in fine functional shape today about a century later. ALL that it gets fed is standard .38 Special, (smokeless powder) because that's what it was made for. And, to date, I'm told its in great shape.

Conversion to .38 Special is not an automatic death sentence requiring black powder or even cowboy action level light loads. Don't know why some folks make it sound like it is.

[RoyceP]

I keep seeing "internet experts" claiming that somehow smokeless powder has some sort of pressure curve that is sharper and therefore terminal to older guns.

The actual research does not support this idea at all. See here:

https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...essure-testing

Prove me wrong with actual data.

[44 AMP]

Prove me wrong with actual data.

Nope. Not going to try. From my point of view, such data does not exist.

I keep seeing "internet experts" claiming that somehow smokeless powder has some sort of pressure curve that is sharper and therefore terminal to older guns.

Smokeless powder does have a different pressure curve than black powder. That fact is not in dispute.

What is in dispute is the claim that the difference is "terminal" to older guns.
There are a lot of "internet experts" who take the "Chicken Little" approach. For them, the sky is always falling. What I mean by that, is they take a possible (and fairly rare) worst case situation and claim that it WILL happen, implying (some outright stating) that it will happen, will always happen, its inevitable, and if you don't do what they tell you to do, you WILL blow up your gun!!!

This is, of course, BS.

All the lovely, detailed and accurate pressure measurements we can do today are useful thing, for some things, but in the discussion of what causes catastrophic failure (blow ups) of older (Black powder guns in particular) guns, they aren't actually relevant.

People get all kinds of focused on the pressure measurements, total pressure, peak pressure, pressure curves, etc., using the data to prove something "safe" or "not safe", depending on the point of view and data presented. They make nice sounding arguments and pretty charts, but they don't tell you anything actually relevant to the question of an old gun failing, at all, let alone catastrophically.

The reason its not relevant is simple, and constantly overlooked. Nobody is testing rare, valuable century and a half old guns to destruction, and even if they did, all it would tell you is at what point that individual gun failed.

The "old guns" are NOT a uniform thing. In addition to all the numerous different designs, methods of manufacture and materials used, their condition ranges from "as mechanically sound as the day they left the factory" on down to "barely functional" and every one can be different.

So, since they are all possibly different, any blanket statement about their strength can not be accurate in all cases. Next point is about them "blowing up". Can happen, rarely does, what is much, much more common is some kind of critical failure that deadlines the gun (such as a crack in the frame) that is NOT a blow up.

And these things also happen when the guns are shot only with black powder as well. The one thing that is always, eventually "terminal" to every gun is using it (firing it) enough. This is something common with all mechanical things. At some point, they will wear out and fail. Whether it takes 6 years, 160 or 600 years, if used ENOUGH they will wear out.

Further skewing the information available is the fact that all our data on "old gun" failures comes from guns that have failed. There are always lots of possible reasons why an old gun fails, how and why it broke the way it did. Pressure is ONE of them. But only one of them. It MAY BE the reason, or the reason may be something else. TO claim that pressure (in some form) IS the reason, and the only reason, and that the gun WILL blow up, just isn't sensible, to me.

Thoughts??

[Jim Watson]

DJ showed a Merwin and Hulbert cylinder blown up by a light smokeless load.
Really?
Maybe it was an accidental double smokeless load.
Ed Matunas was very condescending to hobby reloaders when he wrote "It is not always the reload but that is the smart way to bet." but he was right, too.

There was the case on the SASS wire back when I shot CAS about the guy who blew up a revolver. He was just sure his procedures would have prevented a double charge. A couple of club members said "Let us watch you loading for a while." Sure enough, they agreed that he would not have double charged his powder.
But he doubled the bullet. One stuck in the seating die accumulation of bullet lube, and he did not notice a case without bullet dropping into the bin what with his focus on the powder station, so the next one got two bullets. Standard powder charge but compressed under 500 grains of lead.

[Hawg]

Originally Posted by Super Sneaky Steve

You can make a gun out of cast iron or brass and it will handle BP just fine.

Go over 20 grains of powder in a brass frame and see how long it takes to beat itself to death. The bp Colt frames were made from wrought iron and case hardened. No matter how tough the cylinder is I wouldn't want to run .38 specials with smokeless through a wrought iron one.