Any one using Titegroup with 44 magnum?

[mrdaputer]

Last week I picked up a S&W 629 classic. I have a lot of Titegroup on hand and was wondering if any one used it for 44-240 RNFP? Also what your thoughts were.

[Sevens]

I have a lot of experience with it and I'm going to give you a double answer.

Yes, it's a fine powder in .44 Magnum just as long as you absolutely, positively understand and accept that you should build NOTHING beyond light target loads. How light? Well my favorite Titegroup load in .44 Mag uses a 240gr LSWC and sends it at 870fps from my 7.5" barreled Redhawk. Titegroup is not at all sensitive to space or position, which makes it work very well for light loads in huge cases.

It is a bad, and I mean BAD idea to try and use Titegroup for full magnum loads in .44 Magnum, or any high pressure magnum revolver. Titegroup is one of the fastest burning powders on the market and it peaks way too early to make proper magnum loads.

If you build loads even to published max with Titegroup in magnum revolvers, the net result is a load that doesn't sound or feel or recoil or act like a full magnum load, and it will not give you velocity like a full magnum load.

However... it will give you all the peak pressure of a full load, at the wrong time.

If your end goal is to destroy a firearm with an overload, Titegroup may be one of the best powders available. This is because it burns extremely fast and it's very dense. There is usually enough space to triple a safe load. In that way, Titegroup MUST be respected and not abused.

[mrdaputer]

Thank you for the reply I too error on the side of caution. I check about 1 of 10 for my 9mm and 40 which I run in the middle of the recommended load. I eye up every case right after it gets loaded.

[T. O'Heir]

Lots of cast and jacketed data on Hodgdon's site. The jacketed 240 Max load(10.0) runs 1292 FPS at 37,700 CUP. The Max cast bullet load runs 1288 FPS at 38,400 CUP. Out of an 8.275" barrel. So if you don't have an 8.275" barrel your velocities will be lower.
SAAMI .44 Mag pressures(36,000 PSI Max) are only given in PSI. And there's no converting CUP to PSI or PSI to CUP. However, as long as you follow your manual you won't have any issues with Titegroup.

[Nick_C_S]

Read Sevens' post.

RE-read Sevens' post.

I have extensive experience with TiteGroup; but none with 44 Mag. I too have a 629 Classic (5" bbl). And I have loaded a good amount of 44 Specials for it with TG - 200gn plated flat points. Good ammo. 850-ish f/s.

I'm an experienced loader (34 years). And I am a fast powder centric loader. But loading 240's in 44 Mag, using TG would make me a bit nervy - which is why I never did it. It can certainly be done. No doubt. Most likely, good ammo can be had. But please fully understand that TiteGroup is fast burning and highly - highly - energetic. It is by no means a "forgiving" propellant. It won't hardly bark before it bites.

Lighter bullets would afford more margin for error. Just thought I'd mention that.

Load safe.

(Good post Sevens.)

[Sevens]

Thanks for the nod, Nick!

Here's a point about Titegroup that I think should be shared...
It seems to me that Titegroup (and many other fast burners) end up getting used in the wrong place for the wrong goals, it's a common pitfall that happens to newer or newish handloaders.

Titegroup should be used as a specific answer to a need, like I described. Need a light load AND a powder that works well with a small charge in a huge case? I honestly don't believe there is a better powder on the market for exactly that.

INSTEAD... what typically happens with newer handloaders is "okay, I have been making 9mm for a year now and it's worked great! Now I want to make .44 Magnum. Oh hey look, Hodgdon has published load data for .44 Magnum, let's do this!"

Frankly, I wish the published load data would add a comment. Something such as I wrote above. You can use this max load, but it's really a terrible choice for a max load in .44 Magnum. All of the pressure but without the performance you're looking for.

The published data would be even more telling if they could graph the pressure curve that a fast burning powder lays down in a max magnum load, especially when compared to a slower burning powder that is more appropriate for a full magnum load.

Anyone who has seen me post on this subject knows that this is a crusade for me. This is because I loaded for 15-plus years before I had this epiphany. No, I wasn't building bombs with fast burning powders all that time, I simply didn't load magnum revolver rounds.

This information should be obvious, especially to new handloaders and it isn't. It has never been obvious and I wish it were.

[Sequins]

I just loaded 250 rounds of 44-240 using MBC coated lead Keith style bullets. I love these MBC bullets and I also love titegroup. A lot of the advice you're getting in this thread seems overly cautious to me- yes it's not the best powder for a max load but with a published range of 5.7gn - 10gn there's a lot of room between minimum and maximum for a great target load. I think 6.5-7gn is the ideal range depending on the gun of course, I love how many rounds I can load on a pound of Titegroup and it is a very reliable and consistent powder for me. H110 and Titegroup are my two main Hodgson powders, and if you want max buy some H110 and be happy.

yes, you can blow your gun up with an overcharge, but that's hardly a reason to fear the powder and if you're in the middle of range for titegroup you've got a big margin of safety. Weigh loads regularly, visually inspect case fill, work in a well lit environment with a sober mind and minimal distractions. Safety does not require fear.

[rclark]

I found 8.0g Titegroup under 240g SWC was the load the worked best (most accurate) for me when I was testing this powder. This is a 1080fps load with 35 ES out of 6 1/2" BH. My recollection is it burns hot. I don't use it now as I prefer Unique for my .44s (mag and special), but I would use Titegroup if I had too. Just don't expect magnum velocities. Best for light/medium loads.

[44 AMP]

visually inspect case fill,

This is a step too often overlooked and a vital one when using fast powders in large cases. Titegroup, Bullseye, W231 and similar powders use such small amounts compared to case volume that a double charge may not even fill the case halfway!!!


But its more than enough to wreck your day, destroy your gun, and maybe injure you!

I load by batches, (got rid of my progressive years ago), and fill a loading block with charged cases, so I can visually compare the powder height in each one, against the others. (yes, use a good light to be sure).

Fast powders reach max pressure a few hundred feet/second slower than slower powders. Think of it as a hard slap on the base of the bullet, compared to a hard shove...

I think most people using fast powder in .44 mag are looking for the most rounds per pound of powder, not the maximum performance of the round.

The fastest powder I use in .44mag is Unique (which is considered a medium burn rate) pushing lead 240-250 slugs to about 1100fps. If I want more than that, I go to jacketed bullets and 2400/h110/ W296 or AA#9.

Been reloading over 45 years, and I've made a LOT of mistakes. Never made the same mistake twice, and (knock on wood) never wrecked a gun with a reloading mistake...yet. BUT, I did damage one early on, and so, I'm a bit paranoid about very fast powder in large cases. It would only take ONE mistake, and I love my guns, and myself too much to risk it.

[NC FNS]

I was worried that TG would cause leading in my RH, but haven’t seen anyone mention that yet. Is leading a valid concern with hotter loads of TG and lead bullets?

[Road_Clam]

Back years ago during the "powder scare" I was trying to load 357 mag and my goto H110 and 2400 were NOWHERE to be found. I did however find some Titegroup, so I bought 3 lbs and tried it. Long story short I was struggling with velocities and inconsistencies. I was at the time less experienced at magnum handgun so I ended up giving up on Titegroup. Now jump to present day and the fact I now own a 9mm Uzi that i'm learning to load 147 gr subsonic suppressed and my past hated Titegroup is now my goto powder for this specific application. 3.4 gr gets me right about 1000 fps and nice consistent fps. So although I don't hear many handloaders who use TG, it does have it's usefulness as I finally found out.

[Sequins]

NC, I only shoot powder coated lead so I can't comment, but it's never a problem for me.

[tranders]

I was worried that TG would cause leading in my RH, but haven’t seen anyone mention that yet. Is leading a valid concern with hotter loads of TG and lead bullets?

I have had no leading with Titegroup in 45acp with MBC boolits and my home cast,but get leading in 9mm with lots of different boolits and guns. I gave up and went to plated in 9mm.

[mrdaputer]

This has been very helpful I will be using Berry's Preferred Plated Pistol Bullets. I do have another question. All Cabela's had was large magnum pistol primers. Some say to use 10% less powder. What are your thoughts?

[Real Gun]

All Cabela's had was large magnum pistol primers. Some say to use 10% less powder. What are your thoughts?

I would look for a different source, maybe another brand. Your plated bullets are not suited to the velocities produced by powders that require magnum primers.

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by Real Gun

I would look for a different source, maybe another brand. Your plated bullets are not suited to the velocities produced by powders that require magnum primers.

I would not hesitate to use magnum primers with standard loads. Heck, Winchester only makes one primer for LP in both magnum and standard loads. I'd suspect it is closer to a magnum primer than a standard primer. Unless one is loading to max with a standard primer and substitutes a magnum primer without dropping the powder charge slightly, there really is not a major issue here. Some load manuals only use magnum primers for .44 mag, regardless of powder being used. Standard reloading techniques apply. When developing a new load, start low and work your way up. No way a magnum primer is going to be an issue if this is followed.

[black mamba]

My best accuracy load in a 6½" 629 Classic is 7.0 gr of TiteGroup under the X-Treme 240 gr RNFP plated bullet. Runs about 950 fps.

[Sequins]

Magnum primers are simply more energetic primers. They will cause faster and more complete ignition of powder, spiking pressure higher and earlier and contributing to a slightly higher FPS on average. I generally use whatever primer is recommended for a powder, and titegroup is a standard primer powder. I probably wouldn't use a magnum primer with titegroup but I guess if it were all I had on hand I might give it a shot so to speak- I'd start at the very, very bottom of the load range and carefully monitor for pressure though.

[Real Gun]

I would not hesitate to use magnum primers with standard loads.

Given a choice, you use the right primer. One thing is certain, whatever position one takes on this, someone is standing ready to argue the point.

[Sevens]

You can call it "argue" if you wish to argue, these are and will continue to be discussions. Fact is, published load data is not, nor has it ever been a strict, line by line recipe.

Every little detail is included in some published data. Some sources leave other bits out. The primer is mentioned because it is relevant information, much like ambient temperature and length of barrel. It isn't listed because it's law that you use exactly the same primer that the published source uses.

To suggest otherwise is a disservice, especially to new handloaders.

[Real Gun]

You don't use magnum primers unless you need them over standard primers. One can make do, but it won't be the right primer.

[Unclenick]

But in this case, a magnum primer may be appropriate. I say this because of all the irregularity mentioned by Road Clam. As former CCI employee Alan Jones points out, a magnum primer can improve ignition consistency when you have a lot of empty space in a case, and that is what this kind of load has. It's not that the powder won't light with a standard primer but rather that it needs a bit more starting pressure from the primer to do it with the same timing every shot. I know Tightgroup is supposed to be position-insensitive, but this is relative to other powders. If you put a pinch of it in a 45-160 case you are not reasonably going to get the exact same performance with it back over the flash hole that you will get with it up at the bullet base. You won't see the variation in Hodgdon's load data because the ballistic tech performs "the SAAMI twist" manipulation of the case to get the powder over the primer every time. That makes for the worst case highest pressure, which is why it is done.

In the 44 Magnum, you can see the effect for yourself if you shoot at a range that allows loaded guns to be pointed into the air. Mine does not, owing to another nearby range that had some rounds go over its berm and strike a silo a farmer was standing near. But if yours does allow it, it's a great way to test your load for powder position sensitivity. Tilt the gun up, then level it slowly to fire over your chronograph for every shot and see what the mean velocity and SD are. Then repeat, but tilting the muzzle down and slowly bringing it up to level with every shot.

[rclark]

Concerning leading ... no I did not see any significant leading while testing TiteGroup using 240g SWC bullets from Rimrock.
I didn't check for position sensitivity because with a CCI-300 primer I was getting 18 to 35 ES over the loads I tested (15 shots per load)... which I feel is pretty good. Higher the load the lower the ES.

[Nick_C_S]

I know Tightgroup is supposed to be position-insensitive, but this is relative to other powders.

That's right.

I've done this test myself (using the method just as Unclenick describes) and there is some position sensitivity with TiteGroup. I'll spare the details as it is outside the scope of this thread. And I am not trying to dispute Hodgdon's claims. I'm just saying that it does have some position sensitivity.

. . . And now back you your regularly scheduled programming . . .

[Sevens]

I have done informal testing also. I will definitely argue that is isn't outside the scope of this thread -- if he wants to make .44 with Titegroup, he's going to have a football field and a half of extra, open space inside the cartridge case and your experiences there are definitely relevant.

I can say that while it likely does react a bit differently depending on a test the way that Unclenick describes... it's far better than most other powders that don't take up much space... at least in my experience.