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Old December 29, 2019, 05:56 PM   #1
Tactical Jackalope
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Distance shooting is a necessary task to sharpen.

A learning moment for us all here. I've stated and had a thread go off the rails the way so many do because of people who refuse to leave their bubble.

25+ yard shootings do happen and when you lease expect it, you're elected. I don't care about the regurgitated stats of 3 rouhnds per fight or "bad breath distance" only. A citizen can and have found themselves at the feet and will of an active shooter. Aside from me having worked security at religious events for Catholic, Christian, and Jewish people alike, this is something we often discussed.

https://concealednation.org/2019/12/...g/?jwsource=cl

This was a distance shot and several churchgoers and from my understanding security detail moved in on the would be mass shooter.

It's the same distance as any grocery store or mall.

I wish I could turn off the comments and just share this, but that's not the perfect world we live in. Alas contrarians, gather around and poke the holes as to why distance shooting shouldn't matter because of statistics.


Adding:

There’s a few more things to take away from this.

1- you need to be training and practicing outside of 5 yards. You might have to take a shot 25+ yards out.
2- you need to be able to get your gun out of your holster quick and put rounds on target fast.
3- carry medical!
4- have a plan. All but maybe 10 people got up and moved! Know your exits.
5- you are at 100% of your own emergencies. Prepare for it.


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Old December 29, 2019, 06:09 PM   #2
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Here's a link to an article that contains a video of the shooting.

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=a7Egb_1577654583

You might not want to watch past the shooting part, or at least turn the sound down after the shots are fired. You can hear what appears to be the daughter of one of the men shot screaming in the aftermath and if that kind of thing bothers you, consider yourself warned.

Pistol grip shotgun. The guy was certainly there with ill intent. That's not the kind of weapon someone routinely carries on their person for self-defense. <<Reports are now suggesting he was wearing a disguise, including a false beard.>>

Good shooting by the retired FBI guy. Hard to judge distance from the video, but he made a one shot stop at what looks like 10-15 yards as nearly as I can tell.

The first person to be shot, stood up (perhaps 5 yards from the shooter), bringing attention to himself and then quite obviously went for a gun while staring down the barrel of the bad guy's shotgun. Brave, but perhaps not ideal tactics. Then again, it appears that he may have been talking with the shooter already so maybe it's moot. He appears to be carrying in some kind of rig behind his back so maybe he felt he had to stand up to draw. Something to consider when choosing a carry method.

The second guy to be shot stood in place after the first shot instead of immediately dropping down or moving. The shooter then shot him after recovering his shotgun from recoil. Looks like the shooter was not especially familiar with the weapon as he lost control of the forearm due to the recoil from the first shot.

The shooter then turned away towards the front of the church and may have fired a third shot--I can't tell because if he did, the sound merged with the shot of the retired FBI guy. There does appear to be a flash on the wall that could be his weapon discharge. If that's true, he fired three times.

The retired FBI guy makes a good draw once he actually reacts, I think from open carry--he looks like he is part of a security team for the church as I can see other equipment on his belt in the video.

I wish the first guy had drawn more surreptitiously--he might have been able to end things before any shots were fired. I wish the second guy had gotten off the X or at least ducked down/dropped in place, he might have been able to avoid getting shot since the shooter obviously didn't manage his weapon particularly well.

The first man shot was about 5 yards or less from the shooter. From the time he began to stand, to the time he was shot was about 4 seconds. From the time he obviously started his draw until he was shot was about 2 seconds.

From the time that the shooter pulled out his gun until the last shot was fired was 6 seconds.

Two or three seconds elapsed from the time that the shooter fired the first shot until the retired FBI guy shot him. The retired FBI guy appears to be facing partially away from the initial encounter and perhaps talking with another person. He turns and draws at the initial shot.

See my later post on this thread for an update on the retired FBI guy's actions based on a better quality video.
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Last edited by JohnKSa; December 30, 2019 at 02:40 AM. Reason: Updated with new details.
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Old December 29, 2019, 06:13 PM   #3
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Photo.

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Old December 29, 2019, 06:14 PM   #4
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Video of the Fort Worth church shooting is here:
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/vi...ooded-shooter/

The attacker stood up from a pew and pulled out a shotgun. One of the church members attempted to draw a pistol and was shot. A second church member was shot by the attacker and then a retired FBI agent at the very back of the church fired a single shot, stopping the attack and hitting the shooter (who was in front of the first pew and off to the side).

From what I can tell, at least five additional church members were carrying and drew pistols; but in the time it took them to react, observe, and orient, the immediate threat was already over.

ETA: News reports say 2 dead and 1 critically injured but different news agencies are claiming different people were injured so I edited my post to not spread incorrect info.

Also, the video involves people being murdered in a church in front of their families and includes audio, so you may find it distressing.

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Old December 29, 2019, 06:38 PM   #5
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Certainly a somber reminder.

The "rule" of 3s in terms of 3 shots at 3 yards and in 3 seconds is meant to give a general impression of defensive usage of a firearm (which are often at contact distances). This is often in the context of personal crime, such as individual robberies or assaults. Mass shootings are something that needs to be considered as well and often involve a different threat environment. Training just for the average can be very problematic.

At the same time training for the rule of 3s should cover speed of the draw. Part of the problem is getting over the shock of an attack and being able to move to the Decide and Act stages of an OODA loop. Then there's whether a person is capable of drawing in the requisite time.

Around me it's not always easy to find a range that will let people draw from the holster, much less from concealment. I know a lot of people that don't practice drawing from concealment, probably even less so from their Sunday best rather than the range vest. This is something that can be practiced with dry fire at home if doing it live isn't an option. It really does need to be practiced. I've found certain clothes, even of the "tactical" variety, that make snagging problematic.

The plan part is also very important. Even if a person is not going to carry, have a plan with those you're with as to what you're doing and where you're going in the event of an emergency (it doesn't have to be a shooting). The plan may well fall apart, but having some idea of where people might meet is important.


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Old December 29, 2019, 06:49 PM   #6
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Good phrasing, when you said that people refuse to leave their bubble.

I hate shooting 25+, mostly because my nice neat little 10 yard groups start to look more like shotgun patterns. I still force myself to do it because it is a necessary skill, but it is 100% outside of my bubble and makes me confront the fact that I am not nearly as good as I like to think I am. I guess that is why it is called "training"
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Old December 29, 2019, 06:52 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob228 View Post
Good phrasing, when you said that people refuse to leave their bubble.

I hate shooting 25+, mostly because my nice neat little 10 yard groups start to look more like shotgun patterns. I still force myself to do it because it is a necessary skill, but it is 100% outside of my bubble and makes me confront the fact that I am not nearly as good as I like to think I am. I guess that is why it is called "training"
It's very satisfying to do what you're good at.

When you're going to the range it's worth figuring out ahead of time what you're going to do in terms of drills or courses of fire. Some of it should involve skills that need work. I finally had to write it all down to force myself to stick to it.

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Old December 29, 2019, 07:03 PM   #8
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On another note, at the the time of the photo in post #2, the attacker has pulled a shotgun out and shot two people. Around 5-6 seconds have passed since the shotgun came out and 2-3 seconds since the first shot was fired.

Look how many people are still in the orientation part of the OODA loop. I think that lag where people go from the expectation of what their day is going to be to the reality is one of the toughest barriers to cross.
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Old December 29, 2019, 07:32 PM   #9
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The distance looks to be between 10 and 15 yards. 30 to 45 feet.

That's not the longest shot that could have been required in that room, and I've seen churches with auditoriums much larger than that one.

A mugging-type shooting may happen at very close range, but if one wants to be ready to deal with the kind of situation that occurred in the OP's post, it's going to be critical to be able to shoot accurately at distances that stretch well past what we often consider to be "typical" self-defense ranges.

I'm not saying we all need to prepare to defend against church shootings or mall shootings where the distances can really get long, I'm just saying that IF we want to prepare for that, the preparation needs to be realistic. That means picking carry methods that allow one to draw while seated so you don't have to stand up to draw like the first man shot in the video. It includes picking a carry gun that can be shot accurately at distances past 10 yards. It includes practicing to draw from the normal carry positoin and fire accurately at targets past 10 yards.
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Old December 29, 2019, 08:10 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactical Jackalope
https://concealednation.org/2019/12/...g/?jwsource=cl

This was a distance shot and several churchgoers and from my understanding security detail moved in on the would be mass shooter.
I'm going to disagree with John. I don't think the distance was even 30 feet, let alone 45 feet. After looking at the images multiple times, my estimate is 20 to 25 feet. Certainly nothing close to the 25+ yards you are talking about.

John is correct that the church was large enough that a longer shot might have been called for. Except that this particular church has an armed security team, and I'm sure there were other armed people scattered around the room. After the shots, numerous people armed with handguns materialize from different directions. I don't think those were just random, armed parishioners. The response was too orderly. I think those were all (or mostly) members of the security team.
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Old December 29, 2019, 08:22 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts
On another note, at the the time of the photo in post #2, the attacker has pulled a shotgun out and shot two people. Around 5-6 seconds have passed since the shotgun came out and 2-3 seconds since the first shot was fired.
00:12 - Shotgun comes out
00:13 - First victim stands
00:13 - First victim draws / first shot
00:16 - Second shot
00:18 - Third shot
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Old December 29, 2019, 08:24 PM   #12
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I always hear negative comments about shooting out to 25. That can be from one end of the house to the other outside and still within a fenced area. Not unrealistic at all. I do first shot and bill drills out to 25, 35, 40 and 50 firing at a 12x20 IDPA steel target. I use a glock 26, 19, 19MOS, 19X, 17 and 34. When I ran through one drill at 50, my friend in ABC agency said, "holy #$%"...he was skeptic and the very first drill I did was at 50. He said they only go out to 25 and another friend in a city PD says the furthest they train with pistols is 15. Granted, I have nothing better to do and shoot a lot. I have 5 ranges on my land. I'll spend an hour doing drills using my non dominant hand to get my gun out of my holster, fire and change magazines without using my dominant hand at all and I'll be having the time of my life and my brother or friends will be like, "screw that".. they'll just do it once or twice. lol

A lot of people don't want to drills outside the box. Like a lot of things, when things go south, you have the rest of your life to figure it out. (this comment is not directed at anyone involved in the church)

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Old December 29, 2019, 09:53 PM   #13
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Too many people drew their firearms when they had nothing to do with them other than an unintentional discharge.

This one certainly looks well under 40 feet. The pews are 16 feet and there is only a little distance on each end beyond the length of the pew between them. We all have limited resources for training, including time. Therefore, it makes sense to train for the "most likely" rather than the "worst case." If our training unduly emphasizes "worst-case" or outlier events, we will be less prepared for the "most likely." For example, the man who was slow to draw did not need to train more at 25 yards. He may have actually been better off waiting to draw. He's the last guy I want to judge right now, but I can be certain he doesn't need anyone to tell him to practice more at 25 yards.

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Old December 29, 2019, 11:35 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by labnoti View Post
Too many people drew their firearms when they had nothing to do with them other than an unintentional discharge.

This one certainly looks well under 40 feet. The pews are 16 feet and there is only a little distance on each end beyond the length of the pew between them. We all have limited resources for training, including time. Therefore, it makes sense to train for the "most likely" rather than the "worst case." If our training unduly emphasizes "worst-case" or outlier events, we will be less prepared for the "most likely." For example, the man who was slow to draw did not need to train more at 25 yards. He may have actually been better off waiting to draw. He's the last guy I want to judge right now, but I can be certain he doesn't need anyone to tell him to practice more at 25 yards.
The priority, in my opinion, should be to achieve proficiency from contact, retention and drills progressing out to 15 yards, before practicing further out distances... even if you have all the time in the world. I didn't intend to minimize close distances.
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Old December 29, 2019, 11:45 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by labnoti View Post
Too many people drew their firearms when they had nothing to do with them other than an unintentional discharge.



This one certainly looks well under 40 feet. The pews are 16 feet and there is only a little distance on each end beyond the length of the pew between them. We all have limited resources for training, including time. Therefore, it makes sense to train for the "most likely" rather than the "worst case." If our training unduly emphasizes "worst-case" or outlier events, we will be less prepared for the "most likely." For example, the man who was slow to draw did not need to train more at 25 yards. He may have actually been better off waiting to draw. He's the last guy I want to judge right now, but I can be certain he doesn't need anyone to tell him to practice more at 25 yards.
In terms of what to emphasize, training doesn't have to be all one or the other. You could spend 80% of your time practicing for threats closer in and then 20% for longer distances. Play with the percentages as you will. Absolutely time and money are factors, which is why breaking down what is practiced ahead of time is important. Some things can be done at home (such as practicing drawing from concealment) when range time isn't as available.

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Old December 30, 2019, 12:10 AM   #16
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They call it practical pistol. I see it all the time on gun programs on TV. They expand it out and come up with 3 gun matches. Not very practical. I shoot paper from 25' to 50' feet almost everyday. I am shooting more for practice at random unknown distance for hunting than target shooting. When I move up to deer pistols I shoot to 100yds. No scopes or rests just practical iron sights.

Shooting like this I never felt the need to pop away at close range with a snub nose. I've never been where a fast draw was important. I don't think it is in most cases. Drawing pistol briskly and shooting perp with first shot is more important. For most just shooting the perp is a major accomplishment.
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Old December 30, 2019, 12:32 AM   #17
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The first victim in the Texas church shooting yesterday drew a bit less briskly than circumstances warranted, and he died. His pistol was just approaching a low ready position (the muzzle was still pointed almost straight down) when he was shot.
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Old December 30, 2019, 01:23 AM   #18
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The second victim is now reported to have died in the hospital.
Quote:
I'm going to disagree with John.
Ok, I tried to eyeball it initially, here's a more rigorous estimate.

Assuming that the security guard is 33 inches from waist to the top of his head and that there haven't been any aspect ratio changes when the video was posted, a purely 2 dimensional analysis of their positions at the time of the shooting indicates that he is about 10 yards away from the shooter. However, the shooter is clearly farther from the camera than the security guard, so the 2D range will clearly underestimate the shooting distance. But at this point we have a pretty solid bottom end for our range estimate--10 yards.

Assuming that the security guard and the shooter are about the same size, then based on the photograph, the shooter is about 60% farther from the camera than the security guard.

When I run the numbers with the security guard ranging from 10 yards to 25 yards from the camera (my best guess is that he's really about 17-19 yards from the camera) I get that the overall distance from the security guard to the shooter is in the range of 11.5 to 17.4 yards.

Not that John Correia is necessarily an expert at estimating distances from videos, but for whatever it's worth, his estimate was 12-15 yards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5NzuGSkL2E

I think my initial estimate of 10 to 15 yards is reasonably accurate--I'm pretty confident of the lower bound on that range.
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Old December 30, 2019, 01:52 AM   #19
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I always make it a point to shoot my carry gun at a 100 yards. People think I'm crazy but if I'm at a mall and an active shooter scenario happens where I can't run, hide or other wise and am left without a choice I can at least engage at a distance. I use a paper plate at a hundred yards with a bulls eye. I don't care if I hit the bullseye as long as I can get 7 rounds on the plate I'm thinking I can hit center mass. I carry my 686 with 6" barrel on a vertical shoulder holster for more accuracy when I go to church but can shoot my 1911 just as good. It's a shame we have to arm ourselves to worship GOD.
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Old December 30, 2019, 01:57 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TunnelRat
In terms of what to emphasize, training doesn't have to be all one or the other. You could spend 80% of your time practicing for threats closer in and then 20% for longer distances. Play with the percentages as you will. Absolutely time and money are factors, which is why breaking down what is practiced ahead of time is important.
In the movie The Patriot, when Mel Gibson and his two young sons were preparing to ambush the British patrol to rescue the eldest son, Gibson asked his sons if they remembered what he had taught them.

"Aim small, miss small."

The owner of the range where I shoot is an NRA instructor and used to shoot regularly in USPSA competition. I was astonished one day when I complained that several lights were out at the 25 yard line in the range. He said he hadn't noticed because he only shoots at 25 feet.

By all means, practice at both distances. That said, I think (based on my own experience) that there should be more practice at the 25 yard distance. "Aim small, miss small." If you can shoot a good group at 25 yards, you should be able to shoot a good group at 25 feet. I've found that, for me, if I shoot too much at 25 feet and ignore the 25 yard distance, I get lazy. That's not good.
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Old December 30, 2019, 02:32 AM   #21
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Your story doesn't surprise me. When I go to a public range I rarely see the targets get pushed passed 20 feet. The key in what I said is:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TunnelRat
You could spend 80% of your time practicing for threats closer in and then 20% for longer distances. Play with the percentages as you will.
Figure out what works best for you. My point in that response is that to me the argument that time and money are limitations while certainly true doesn't preclude shooting at longer distances (which was seemingly the argument of the person I was responding to). As you say, certainly marksmanship fundamentals at range still apply closer in.

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Old December 30, 2019, 04:09 AM   #22
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I found another source with a zoomed video and I believe that my assessment of the security guard's reactions were in error.

I initially thought that the FBI guy/security guard was distracted by the guy next to him talking with him and didn't see what was going on or begin reacting until the first shot was fired. In the zoomed video it's clear that he was watching the shooter before he pulled out his gun. He saw the shooter pull out his gun and reacted. The security guard put his hand on his gun a second after the gun became visible in response to the visible gun but did not actually begin his draw for another 3 seconds or so. He begins his draw at maybe three seconds after the gun first became visible and fires the final shot about 2 seconds after that.
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Old December 30, 2019, 08:02 AM   #23
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Gee, I'm just glad the church hadn't designated their church as a 'gun free zone', but recognize these are scary times..
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Old December 30, 2019, 08:10 AM   #24
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Media stated it was over in 6 seconds.
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Old December 30, 2019, 08:53 AM   #25
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It's fortunate that the shot that stopped this episode was accurate and effective. Had he hit anyone else, this story would be worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tunnel Rat
In terms of what to emphasize, training doesn't have to be all one or the other. You could spend 80% of your time practicing for threats closer in and then 20% for longer distances. Play with the percentages as you will. Absolutely time and money are factors, which is why breaking down what is practiced ahead of time is important. Some things can be done at home (such as practicing drawing from concealment) when range time isn't as available.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca
The owner of the range where I shoot is an NRA instructor and used to shoot regularly in USPSA competition. I was astonished one day when I complained that several lights were out at the 25 yard line in the range. He said he hadn't noticed because he only shoots at 25 feet.

By all means, practice at both distances. That said, I think (based on my own experience) that there should be more practice at the 25 yard distance. "Aim small, miss small." If you can shoot a good group at 25 yards, you should be able to shoot a good group at 25 feet. I've found that, for me, if I shoot too much at 25 feet and ignore the 25 yard distance, I get lazy. That's not good.
That reflects a training culture of which I was only vaguely aware three decades ago. My view was shaped by bullseye shooting and a sloppy group might be met with an admonition that I had shot too quickly or rushed.

Recently invited to an indoor range and training facility, instructors were adamantly opposed to thumb safeties, used appendix carry (a method of carry in which the muzzle is pointed to one's crotch) and groups that are small are met with an admonition that one is shooting too slowly. Their paradigm seems to involve very short distances that devolve into an MMA fight.

My prejudice is toward accurate, slow fire at 50 to 75 feet. Proficiency at that took me some time to develop, and I find it interesting enough to keep doing. Over time, I found that what I considered slow fire became quicker as the steps for each shot compressed chronologically.

I don't see shooter development working the other way. Training to empty a magazine at barely more than arms length isn't primarily a practice of fine motor control and sight alignment.

This isn't a comment on the merit of either activity for someone else, but as I approach 60, the idea of shooting someone an arm's length away with a pistol I hold back at my pectoral muscle to gain an advantage in the ensuing ground fight isn't enticing.

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