"Accidental discharge"

patriotthad · March 5, 2018, 01:16 PM

Can anyone direct me to stats for A.D.'s? I am wanting percentages while loading/unloading, holstering/unholstering etc.

Sevens · March 5, 2018, 01:25 PM

Percentages...?
How would that be possible, seriously?

I have been handling firearms for 30 years and have never had an AD/ND. But you can't add my numbers to any "percentages" unless we figure out how many times I have actually handled firearms. Carrying concealed just 10 years.

While I agree that what you seek would be interesting and useful...
--HOW-- would anyone ever get quality stats on this?

Bartholomew Roberts · March 5, 2018, 01:42 PM

The CDC’s WISQARS tool tracks accidental firearms injuries (based on reporting to the hospital). That’s probably the closest you get to any specific numbers on firearms accidents.

(In 2015, 17,311 non-fatal accidental gunshot injuries (does not include BB/pellet injuries which are tracked in a separate category but occur mainly to those under 24yrs of agr.)

DaleA · March 5, 2018, 01:46 PM

Do the military or do the police keep track of accidental/negligent discharges while on duty? (I don't know.)

There's no way they could know about problems when their members are not on duty. Likewise I think the margin of error, that is the number of problems in the civilian sector NOT reported would be so high to make any number you could come up with by tracking 'reported' problems worthless.

patriotthad · March 5, 2018, 01:51 PM

What I was wanting was 70% of A.D.s occur while holstering etc. I am putting together a firearms safety class and just wanted some numbers ammo.

RickB · March 5, 2018, 01:54 PM

Nobody would have any figures other than for themselves.
Shooting ranges take note of ADs, maybe even maintain a total, but doubt that they track the circumstances.

As an observer, most ADs that I've seen were during "speed reloads" in timed competition.

I've seen a few where a round was triggered before the gun was on target, usually striking the ground somewhere between the firing position and target.

When I was shooting every weekend, I might see 1000-1500 rounds triggered each time I went to the range, and maybe two or three ADs a year, so . . . carry the two . . . one AD per 15,000 - 20,000 rounds?
That's a pretty small sample size of ADs, and hard to break it down by type.

EDIT: I've never seen an AD while holstering.

carguychris · March 5, 2018, 01:55 PM

To add to what Sevens said, about the only way you're going to get statistics is to look ONLY at ADs in which someone was seriously injured or killed AND where a police report was filed.

Many (I'd guess most) ADs do not result in injuries, and in most cases, no police report would usually be generated. Even if someone WAS injured, whether a report is filed is likely a matter of state or local law, or perhaps even local police department and/or hospital policy.

Let's say you shot yourself in the foot reholstering, and nobody else was involved in the incident in any way. Would YOU call the police? Let's assume you go to the ER; if your injuries were minor, in the absence of a local regulation requiring them to do so, would the hospital staff bother reporting it?

Even if they DO report it, there's no guarantee that the report is going to detail exactly how the incident happened; they're more interested in the specifics of the injuries to the patient.

Local variations in reporting standards are likely going to corrupt any data collected on these sorts of incidents.

Additionally, keep in mind that people often lie when discussing ADs, particularly when injuries (or even near-injuries) to a third party are involved. "I was cleaning my gun, I dunno what happened" sounds a lot better on a police report than "I was practicing dry-firing at my TV and I forgot that I had left a loaded magazine on my side table."

rickyrick · March 5, 2018, 03:41 PM

The number of injuries that was posted above is higher than I expected.

I’ve never had an AD or ND, but all
The ones I witnessed were caused by pulling the trigger prematurely. An example would be someone trying to cock a handgun with a hammer, the finger contracts, bang. But I would think it be hard to make the data.

manta49 · March 5, 2018, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Do the military or do the police keep track of accidental/negligent discharges while on duty? (I don't know.)

They do in the UK not sure about America.

johnwilliamson062 · March 6, 2018, 12:59 AM

Quote:

The number of injuries that was posted above is higher than I expected.

If you go to the hospital with a gunshot wound it will be reported to police. "I was cleaning my gun and...' is often a way to circumvent a detailed police investigation. I am personally aware of on husband who was almost certainly shot by his wife, and they maintained it was a cleaning accident when they got to the hospital.

**JohnKSa** · March 6, 2018, 01:16 AM

Quote:

What I was wanting was 70% of A.D.s occur while holstering etc.

I'm not going to claim that this anonymous poll is a scientific study, but it does have some interesting information from almost 600 responses.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...happen.114287/

The number one cause of unintentional discharges according to the poll? Pulling the trigger intentionally accounted for 50% of the unintentional discharges in the poll.

fredvon4 · March 6, 2018, 12:31 PM

I bet many TVs have been destroyed by shooting and UNLOADED (assumed unloaded) gun at the nightly news....Mine always have snap caps after I double and triple checked and I still aim at something safe for the first trigger pull...

one night cleaning about 6 hand guns watching TV...dead certain all were unloaded... I grabbed the Walther PPK... no mag in the grip... shot some talking head and had to go buy a new TV the next day..... one in the pipe I missed clearing

Taught me an expensive lesson... now I am insanely focused on clearing all my guns

Ballisticrat · March 18, 2018, 06:55 PM

At my local range, there is no such thing as an accidental discharge. Guns fired unintentionally are referred to as NEGLIGENT DISCHARGES.

riffraff · March 18, 2018, 08:27 PM

No idea but here's a good accidental discharge story.

Two guys were mouthing off back and forth outside a bar local to me, seemingly about to start throwing punches. Out of the blue there's a gunshot and one of the guys falls over. Was playing with a pistol in his pocket and shot himself in the leg

.

Story went from dumb to dumber when the guy who shot himself limped over and tossed the pistol in the woods and hung around for long enough for the cops to arrive, who then quickly retrieved the gun.

Sad but true story. Probably learned his lesson.

blackwidowp61 · March 18, 2018, 08:43 PM

riffraff...I would say that the only way that guy would have learned anything would have been if the bullet had traveled a little higher and tighter and taken him out of the gene pool...I believe it's called a Darwin Award winner!

Doyle · March 18, 2018, 08:48 PM

Ballisticrat is right. All those mentioned are NEGLIGENT discharges. The ONLY accidental discharge is one that is created by malfunction within the firearm itself. Perfect example of a true accidental discharge is the Remington 700 trigger malfunction where a rifle fires as the bolt is closed down.

riffraff · March 18, 2018, 09:17 PM

blackwidow - oh ya a whole lot of stupid & dangerous going on there right from when he put one in the chamber and dropped the pistol into his pocket.

Must've been real surprising to the other guy. I'm sure although the police took it very seriously, and they should have, they've had some good laughs over that one for years.

jimsouth · March 19, 2018, 09:49 AM

I have done my best to teach my grandchildren the ins & outs of handling firearms. At the range, it's: weapon loaded, always down range; unloaded, always down range; unloaded & disassembled, always down range. However, in a stressful situation, where you may believe you are threatened ( or know you are being threatened ), the flood of adrenaline can be difficult to keep in check. Situations like that can be difficult to weigh quickly.

jimsouth · March 19, 2018, 10:05 AM

I know someone who cycled a round indoors ( a 500 Mossberg & a .12 gauge slug ); and it discharged; punching a hole through the carpet, & leaving a small crater in the concrete underneath. No injuries, but unnerving. I believe there was something wonky about the gun; and he had it examined by the manufacturer. Haven't heard anything about it yet. He may have been emptying the tube, holding the action release.

stinkeypete · March 19, 2018, 11:15 AM

I have not had a negligent discharge. Yet.
A firearm is always loaded. Even when unloaded, treat it as loaded.
Don’t point it at anything you don’t intend to destroy.
Don’t pull the trigger because it will go off, even when unloaded. Expect it.

Pump and lever actions are a bit of “what my family has always shot” and that long tube that feeds the cartridges or shells- every youngster hears the story of how grandad (now great granddad) put one in to the ground after deer hunting due to a weak or frozen spring and that last one that didn’t come out until later, with a boom.

To answer the op.. the probability of an accidental discharge is zero for me. If it went bang, I was responsible and negligent. That’s just how I roll, I guess.

Someday, I could mess up. Call it a huge respect for a very powerful tool.

cw308 · March 19, 2018, 07:17 PM

If no one was hurt who would admit it . I have seen new benchrest shooters with triggers set in ounces when closing the bolt rifle pointing down range ,their finger resting on the trigger , Boom , then that surprise look as the bolt closed . Very few admit to a A H moment.

jimsouth · March 20, 2018, 07:14 AM

I have an old Springfield Model 15, single shot, bolt action, manual cock .22 rifle. It has always had a sensitive trigger. Had the bolt rebuilt after the extractor lug finally broke off from a zillion rounds of ammo being run through the gun. I should have it examined, even though I am familiar with the hair trigger. It is the most accurate ( iron sights ) 22 rifle I own.

jimsouth · March 23, 2018, 09:02 AM

I had a .12 gauge coach gun for home protection. Two pipes of 00 Buck does make a statement. It was a hammerless model; and the more I thought about it, the more uncomfortable I became. With a loaded hammerless shotgun, the second you snap the breech shut, it's cocked; and only a safety between you and a discharge. Better to have an exposed hammer coach gun, if you wish to keep it loaded ( and of course, out of sight ). Gotta weigh that situation.

RickB · March 23, 2018, 10:24 AM

In a tense situation, I think I'd rather snap the gun shut to "load" it, rather than mess with two external hammers; fumbling the hammer is always a possibility.

Evan Thomas · March 23, 2018, 10:33 AM

The OP asked for statistics. We're now way off-topic.

March 5, 2018, 01:16 PM	#1
patriotthad Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2009 Posts: 105	"Accidental discharge" Can anyone direct me to stats for A.D.'s? I am wanting percentages while loading/unloading, holstering/unholstering etc.

March 5, 2018, 01:25 PM	#2
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Percentages...? How would that be possible, seriously? I have been handling firearms for 30 years and have never had an AD/ND. But you can't add my numbers to any "percentages" unless we figure out how many times I have actually handled firearms. Carrying concealed just 10 years. While I agree that what you seek would be interesting and useful... --HOW-- would anyone ever get quality stats on this? __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

March 5, 2018, 01:54 PM	#6
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	Nobody would have any figures other than for themselves. Shooting ranges take note of ADs, maybe even maintain a total, but doubt that they track the circumstances. As an observer, most ADs that I've seen were during "speed reloads" in timed competition. I've seen a few where a round was triggered before the gun was on target, usually striking the ground somewhere between the firing position and target. When I was shooting every weekend, I might see 1000-1500 rounds triggered each time I went to the range, and maybe two or three ADs a year, so . . . carry the two . . . one AD per 15,000 - 20,000 rounds? That's a pretty small sample size of ADs, and hard to break it down by type. EDIT: I've never seen an AD while holstering. __________________ Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.

March 5, 2018, 01:55 PM	#7
carguychris Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2007 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 7,523	To add to what Sevens said, about the only way you're going to get statistics is to look ONLY at ADs in which someone was seriously injured or killed AND where a police report was filed. Many (I'd guess most) ADs do not result in injuries, and in most cases, no police report would usually be generated. Even if someone WAS injured, whether a report is filed is likely a matter of state or local law, or perhaps even local police department and/or hospital policy. Let's say you shot yourself in the foot reholstering, and nobody else was involved in the incident in any way. Would YOU call the police? Let's assume you go to the ER; if your injuries were minor, in the absence of a local regulation requiring them to do so, would the hospital staff bother reporting it? Even if they DO report it, there's no guarantee that the report is going to detail exactly how the incident happened; they're more interested in the specifics of the injuries to the patient. Local variations in reporting standards are likely going to corrupt any data collected on these sorts of incidents. Additionally, keep in mind that people often lie when discussing ADs, particularly when injuries (or even near-injuries) to a third party are involved. "I was cleaning my gun, I dunno what happened" sounds a lot better on a police report than "I was practicing dry-firing at my TV and I forgot that I had left a loaded magazine on my side table." __________________ "Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak

March 18, 2018, 06:55 PM	#13
Ballisticrat Member Join Date: August 20, 2012 Location: NC Posts: 23	Accidental Discharge? At my local range, there is no such thing as an accidental discharge. Guns fired unintentionally are referred to as NEGLIGENT DISCHARGES.

March 5, 2018, 01:42 PM	#3
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	The CDC’s WISQARS tool tracks accidental firearms injuries (based on reporting to the hospital). That’s probably the closest you get to any specific numbers on firearms accidents. (In 2015, 17,311 non-fatal accidental gunshot injuries (does not include BB/pellet injuries which are tracked in a separate category but occur mainly to those under 24yrs of agr.)

March 5, 2018, 01:46 PM	#4
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	Do the military or do the police keep track of accidental/negligent discharges while on duty? (I don't know.) There's no way they could know about problems when their members are not on duty. Likewise I think the margin of error, that is the number of problems in the civilian sector NOT reported would be so high to make any number you could come up with by tracking 'reported' problems worthless.

March 5, 2018, 01:51 PM	#5
patriotthad Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2009 Posts: 105	What I was wanting was 70% of A.D.s occur while holstering etc. I am putting together a firearms safety class and just wanted some numbers ammo.

March 5, 2018, 03:41 PM	#8
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,236	The number of injuries that was posted above is higher than I expected. I’ve never had an AD or ND, but all The ones I witnessed were caused by pulling the trigger prematurely. An example would be someone trying to cock a handgun with a hammer, the finger contracts, bang. But I would think it be hard to make the data.

March 6, 2018, 12:31 PM	#12
fredvon4 Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2010 Location: Lampasas Texas Posts: 154	I bet many TVs have been destroyed by shooting and UNLOADED (assumed unloaded) gun at the nightly news....Mine always have snap caps after I double and triple checked and I still aim at something safe for the first trigger pull... one night cleaning about 6 hand guns watching TV...dead certain all were unloaded... I grabbed the Walther PPK... no mag in the grip... shot some talking head and had to go buy a new TV the next day..... one in the pipe I missed clearing Taught me an expensive lesson... now I am insanely focused on clearing all my guns

March 18, 2018, 08:27 PM	#14
riffraff Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2016 Posts: 629	No idea but here's a good accidental discharge story. Two guys were mouthing off back and forth outside a bar local to me, seemingly about to start throwing punches. Out of the blue there's a gunshot and one of the guys falls over. Was playing with a pistol in his pocket and shot himself in the leg . Story went from dumb to dumber when the guy who shot himself limped over and tossed the pistol in the woods and hung around for long enough for the cops to arrive, who then quickly retrieved the gun. Sad but true story. Probably learned his lesson.

March 18, 2018, 08:43 PM	#15
blackwidowp61 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2017 Location: laiceps erehwon Posts: 165	riffraff...I would say that the only way that guy would have learned anything would have been if the bullet had traveled a little higher and tighter and taken him out of the gene pool...I believe it's called a Darwin Award winner! __________________ If God is watching us, the least we can do is be entertaining. I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! If you need a real belly laugh, try this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFCrJleggrI

March 18, 2018, 08:48 PM	#16
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	Ballisticrat is right. All those mentioned are NEGLIGENT discharges. The ONLY accidental discharge is one that is created by malfunction within the firearm itself. Perfect example of a true accidental discharge is the Remington 700 trigger malfunction where a rifle fires as the bolt is closed down.

March 18, 2018, 09:17 PM	#17
riffraff Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2016 Posts: 629	blackwidow - oh ya a whole lot of stupid & dangerous going on there right from when he put one in the chamber and dropped the pistol into his pocket. Must've been real surprising to the other guy. I'm sure although the police took it very seriously, and they should have, they've had some good laughs over that one for years.

March 19, 2018, 09:49 AM	#18
jimsouth Member Join Date: February 22, 2018 Posts: 77	I have done my best to teach my grandchildren the ins & outs of handling firearms. At the range, it's: weapon loaded, always down range; unloaded, always down range; unloaded & disassembled, always down range. However, in a stressful situation, where you may believe you are threatened ( or know you are being threatened ), the flood of adrenaline can be difficult to keep in check. Situations like that can be difficult to weigh quickly.

March 19, 2018, 10:05 AM	#19
jimsouth Member Join Date: February 22, 2018 Posts: 77	I know someone who cycled a round indoors ( a 500 Mossberg & a .12 gauge slug ); and it discharged; punching a hole through the carpet, & leaving a small crater in the concrete underneath. No injuries, but unnerving. I believe there was something wonky about the gun; and he had it examined by the manufacturer. Haven't heard anything about it yet. He may have been emptying the tube, holding the action release.

March 19, 2018, 11:15 AM	#20
stinkeypete Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 1,293	I have not had a negligent discharge. Yet. A firearm is always loaded. Even when unloaded, treat it as loaded. Don’t point it at anything you don’t intend to destroy. Don’t pull the trigger because it will go off, even when unloaded. Expect it. Pump and lever actions are a bit of “what my family has always shot” and that long tube that feeds the cartridges or shells- every youngster hears the story of how grandad (now great granddad) put one in to the ground after deer hunting due to a weak or frozen spring and that last one that didn’t come out until later, with a boom. To answer the op.. the probability of an accidental discharge is zero for me. If it went bang, I was responsible and negligent. That’s just how I roll, I guess. Someday, I could mess up. Call it a huge respect for a very powerful tool.

March 19, 2018, 07:17 PM	#21
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	If no one was hurt who would admit it . I have seen new benchrest shooters with triggers set in ounces when closing the bolt rifle pointing down range ,their finger resting on the trigger , Boom , then that surprise look as the bolt closed . Very few admit to a A H moment.

March 20, 2018, 07:14 AM	#22
jimsouth Member Join Date: February 22, 2018 Posts: 77	I have an old Springfield Model 15, single shot, bolt action, manual cock .22 rifle. It has always had a sensitive trigger. Had the bolt rebuilt after the extractor lug finally broke off from a zillion rounds of ammo being run through the gun. I should have it examined, even though I am familiar with the hair trigger. It is the most accurate ( iron sights ) 22 rifle I own.

March 23, 2018, 09:02 AM	#23
jimsouth Member Join Date: February 22, 2018 Posts: 77	I had a .12 gauge coach gun for home protection. Two pipes of 00 Buck does make a statement. It was a hammerless model; and the more I thought about it, the more uncomfortable I became. With a loaded hammerless shotgun, the second you snap the breech shut, it's cocked; and only a safety between you and a discharge. Better to have an exposed hammer coach gun, if you wish to keep it loaded ( and of course, out of sight ). Gotta weigh that situation.

March 23, 2018, 10:24 AM	#24
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	In a tense situation, I think I'd rather snap the gun shut to "load" it, rather than mess with two external hammers; fumbling the hammer is always a possibility. __________________ Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.

March 23, 2018, 10:33 AM	#25
Evan Thomas Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2008 Location: Upper midwest Posts: 5,631	The OP asked for statistics. We're now way off-topic. __________________ Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry.