Help Me Understand the Comeback of 10mm

[johnwilliamson062]

I wish I had numbers concerning the sale of 357 magnum ammunition and components over the years.
My guess is it has dropped significantly of late and not in relation to the resurgence of the 10mm.

357 does a lot of things OK. It does pretty much nothing really well for me.

[TruthTellers]

10mm and .357 are such comparable cartridges it's tough to say which is better. The hottest 10mm beats standard .357 ammo, but the hottest .357 beats the hottest 10mm.

It's really tough to say which is a better and more effective choice for a person. The power of both is more than adequate for self defense, the recoil for both is pretty comparable, but the only difference is do you want to pay a lot for factory ammo in 10mm and have a fast reload or do you want to pay less for .357 or .38, but have slower reloads? Also, do you want a light to carry gun or a heavy one with limited capacity?

I'd just buy both, I see no reason for one to choose a 10mm over a .357 revolver when they're such an apples to oranges argument. It's not like with a Glock you can't convert a 10mm to shoot something else.

[disseminator]

"Overpowered" based on KE, recoil? What?

A 180 gr. Gold Dot @ 1,225 fps from my Delta Elite has about the same calculated & subjective recoil as a 185 Golden Saber +P @ 1,160 fps from a 45 acp 1911.
The 180 Gold Dot expands to about .75 -.80 and penetrates same depth in water filled gallon jugs as a 230 HST, so its not overpenetrative.

If overpenetration is a primary concern the 10mm Underwood 135 gr. solves that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIya7tdvERI
__________________
A pocket 380/38 snub is "Better than nothing" and may be the best one can do (can =/= willing).
I'm carrying more than "Better than nothing" regardless of location or daylight.

I DO own and shoot 10mm. But I feel it is a VERY poor choice for CCW/EDC duty. I used to carry my p226 in 357 SIG and have carried my G20G4 but after taking a dozen defensive pistol and close quarters type classes I have realized that these "powerful" rounds are totally the wrong choice for personal defense involving humans. (IMO of course)

Where the 10mm really shines IME is as a woods gun for general carry in the outdoors. That is where a lightweight, high capacity, more powerful round comes into it's own.

For dedicated Hunting, I'd rather take one of my growing collection of revolvers but YMMV.

Thank goodness we can all use what we want. (Unless you are in a deep blue State.)

[Areoflyer09]

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

10mm and .357 are such comparable cartridges it's tough to say which is better. The hottest 10mm beats standard .357 ammo, but the hottest .357 beats the hottest 10mm.

It's really tough to say which is a better and more effective choice for a person. The power of both is more than adequate for self defense, the recoil for both is pretty comparable, but the only difference is do you want to pay a lot for factory ammo in 10mm and have a fast reload or do you want to pay less for .357 or .38, but have slower reloads? Also, do you want a light to carry gun or a heavy one with limited capacity?

I'd just buy both, I see no reason for one to choose a 10mm over a .357 revolver when they're such an apples to oranges argument. It's not like with a Glock you can't convert a 10mm to shoot something else.

Coonan solves the reload speed issues for 357s...still heavy with limited capacity though. It does add in quite a bit more purchasing cost though.

[ATN082268]

Originally Posted by disseminator

I DO own and shoot 10mm. But I feel it is a VERY poor choice for CCW/EDC duty. I used to carry my p226 in 357 SIG and have carried my G20G4 but after taking a dozen defensive pistol and close quarters type classes I have realized that these "powerful" rounds are totally the wrong choice for personal defense involving humans. (IMO of course)

Not disagreeing with you but why is the 10mm a poor caliber for CCW or against human targets?

[agtman]

Coonan solves the reload speed issues for 357s...still heavy with limited capacity though. It does add in quite a bit more purchasing cost though.

First of all, the .357 revolver/10mm autoloader argument has always been stupid, not so much from the cartridge-vs.-cartridge perspective, but from the wheelgun vs. semiauto perspective.

That truly does make it "apples v. oranges," unless you equalize the platforms for testing purposes with non-cherry-picked loads - say, by chronographing a full-power 180gn .357 load from a 4" S&W Model 28 against a full-power 180gn 10mm load from a 4" S&W Model 610 revolver. That's about as equal as you can make it ...

Or, with the "6 .357 Coonan autoloader, pair that against any 6" 10mm 1911 for comparing loads fired. At least you're using two 1911 platforms of equal barrel length to attempt to get to anything like a valid comparison.

As far as what might be called "ammo diversity," sure, a .357 wheelgun can shoot the .38 Special-Ed cartridge, but a 10mm Glock with aftermarket barrels (and, assuming the spare barrels are properly fitted, a 10mm 1911) can also shoot the .40S&W, .357Sig, and 9x25 Dillon cartridges.

So right there, the 10mm enjoys an overwhelming two-cartridge advantage over the poor .357.

QED ...

[Areoflyer09]

Originally Posted by agtman

First of all, the .357 revolver/10mm autoloader argument has always been stupid, not so much from the cartridge-vs.-cartridge perspective, but from the wheelgun vs. semiauto perspective.

That truly does make it "apples v. oranges," unless you equalize the platforms for testing purposes with non-cherry-picked loads - say, by chronographing a full-power 180gn .357 load from a 4" S&W Model 28 against a full-power 180gn 10mm load from a 4" S&W Model 610 revolver. That's about as equal as you can make it ...

Or, with the "6 .357 Coonan autoloader, pair that against any 6" 10mm 1911 for comparing loads fired. At least you're using two 1911 platforms of equal barrel length to attempt to get to anything like a valid comparison.

As far as what might be called "ammo diversity," sure, a .357 wheelgun can shoot the .38 Special-Ed cartridge, but a 10mm Glock with aftermarket barrels (and, assuming the spare barrels are properly fitted, a 10mm 1911) can also shoot the .40S&W, .357Sig, and 9x25 Dillon cartridges.

So right there, the 10mm enjoys an overwhelming two-cartridge advantage over the poor .357.

QED ...

Can’t disagree on any of this really!

The Coonan was the only thing I could think of as a way to speed up reloads for the 357. Sadly still weighs more than a Witness Hunter which holds twice as many rounds.

[agtman]

The Coonan was the only thing I could think of as a way to speed up reloads for the 357. Sadly still weighs more than a Witness Hunter which holds twice as many rounds.

Agree - but the Coonan is still a handier package in a .357 autoloader than the pants-droopin' Desert Eagle.

[disseminator]

Not disagreeing with you but why is the 10mm a poor caliber for CCW or against human targets?

This has been my experience, others will have a different opinion. First, most instructors and many well respected authors feel that a person should only carry factory loaded rounds in an EDC weapon. Usually the reason given is legal speak about intent or some such but I find a more practical reason: the ammo sold for LE use like Gold Dot and Fed HST has undergone extensive testing and has proven itself over time. Now, go and seek out some factory self defense ammo for the 10mm and you will find that no LE carries it, and so that ammo has not undergone the same rigorous testing. Now, that doesn't mean it won't work, but I like the fact that Federal/Speer has a lot riding on making the LE ammo reliable.

Nonsense you say? Take a Federal HST and pull the bullet. You will find that it is glued in place with an adhesive which both water proofs the case at the bullet, and helps prevent setback caused by re-chambering the round over and over as a LE or EDC type user does.

Do your handloads have that? Did you ever even think of it?

And a more important reason IMO, is that if you want to know what a high powered, supersonic round sounds like in close quarters, go to the range and place the muzzle of your 10mm next to your face and pull the trigger. (pointing downrange of course!)

You will be deaf and the flash in the dark would blind you.

Never mind that "More Power" is totally superfluous at point blank ranges that EDC entails.

For the record, I love huge guns with massive power, but my EDC is a SIG 9mm with Federal HST 147 +p and standard pressure.

The Coonan was the only thing I could think of as a way to speed up reloads for the 357. Sadly still weighs more than a Witness Hunter which holds twice as many rounds.

If you want a 357 revolver and would like faster reloads, why not get one cut for moon clips? Reloads are VERY fast and they are even available in 8 round cylinders.

[Areoflyer09]

Don’t really want a revolver all that much. I just offered it as an option that had faster reloads.

[Northof50]

Disseminator - your last post was primarily "your opinion" not "your experience." I have no dog in the fight, as I love the 10, 40, 9 and 45. But, "you'll be deaf and blind?" Hardly. "More power is superfluous?" Clearly the statement that can only be made by someone who has settled on a 9mm. Many would disagree. "Extensive testing" of LE is not necessarily proof positive of any caliber or cartridge. If it was, all departments would be using the same ammo. The only thing ever determined was that the handgun is NOT the ultimate self-defense tool, regardless of caliber. It is an emergency weapon. Personally, I'll take more power over less. But, like your post, that's simply my opinion.

[RickB]

The FBI determined that their 10mm load - 180grs @ 950fps - passed their tests, and while the Norma factory 10mm loads at that time were considerably hotter, passing is passing.
You don't get extra points for exceeding the requirements.
By going with the lighter load, you get faster repeat shots, and ultimately, the ability to chamber a round with "FBI Lite" ballistics in a smaller gun via the development of .40 S&W.
The FBI ballistics requirements have become the de facto blueprint for defensive pistol ammo performance, with almost everyone designing their ammo around desired results in those tests.
Are any ammo makers contending that their ammo is better because to performs to a different standard?

[disseminator]

Disseminator - your last post was primarily "your opinion" not "your experience." I have no dog in the fight, as I love the 10, 40, 9 and 45. But, "you'll be deaf and blind?" Hardly. "More power is superfluous?" Clearly the statement that can only be made by someone who has settled on a 9mm. Many would disagree. "Extensive testing" of LE is not necessarily proof positive of any caliber or cartridge. If it was, all departments would be using the same ammo. The only thing ever determined was that the handgun is NOT the ultimate self-defense tool, regardless of caliber. It is an emergency weapon. Personally, I'll take more power over less. But, like your post, that's simply my opinion.

Actually the post was BOTH opinion, and experience. Separate and clearly stated in my post above.

It has been my experience, because I have done it on more than one occasion, that subsonic rounds are superior in close quarters encounters. It's not just noise and bullets that come out of the barrel, but also burning gasses left over from combustion. Those gasses are much more so with high powered rounds like 10mm and 357 SIG.

Next time you are shooting your 10mm, walk up and put the muzzle a few inches from the target and fire. You will see the gasses burn the area around the impact quite clearly. You will also experience the blast in your face from the sonic boom.

Now do the same with the 9mm and you will see what I am saying.

Everything we experience in life is some percent opinion even when based on good evidence.

The part where I shared my opinion was in my assessment of Duty Ammo vs regular and I think it was clear enough. If you don't agree, I have no problem with that.

[dano1200r]

'Are any ammo makers contending that their ammo is better because to performs to a different standard?'

It's my understanding that Hornady Critical Defense is different from the Hornady Critical Duty (le use only on the box) in that the bullet is sealed to the brass differently.
Not that exciting and the only one I can think of off hand.

[seeker_two]

Originally Posted by dano1200r

'Are any ammo makers contending that their ammo is better because to performs to a different standard?'

It's my understanding that Hornady Critical Defense is different from the Hornady Critical Duty (le use only on the box) in that the bullet is sealed to the brass differently.
Not that exciting and the only one I can think of off hand.

Critical Defense is made for non-LEO self-defense situations where controllability and rapid bullet expansion is desired. Critical Duty is made for LE needs like barrier penetration. Both do well in their niches. But, don't expect deep penetration from C-Defense or rapid expansion from C-Duty.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[OzeanJaeger]

Which FBI testing and conclusions should be use?

The ones where they said 9mm was inadequate and anemic, the more recent one where they say 40 is the tits, or the newest one where 9mm kills cape buffaloes? Do you actually believe that bullet construction can account for these vast swings of conclusions? If you do I have a bridge to sell you. Now rifle bullets have come a long way, but pistol bullets have not to the point where they could skew the results in the manner supposed, period.

Basing opinions on government procurement procedures has a really, really bad track record and history. Most of the time the conclusions are written first, and then the testing is designed to support those conclusions (no different than economic studies). So you can put all your eggs in the FBI basket, but those of us over 40 have seen some pretty stupid conclusions by the same in the past, and are probably a heck of a lot more skeptical about the firearms priests at the FBI than you are.

[Northof50]

Sorry. Don't want to start a flame war, but with respect dessiminator - better read it again. It's all opinion or what "others have said." Not a problem. Everyone is entitled to draw their own conclusion from whatever data they want. In your opinion, the 9 is a better defense round against human targets. Until you shoot a few people and test that theory, it's simply an opinion based what you've read and the blast you feel when you shoot it.

[TruthTellers]

The great thing about 10mm is that while it is very powerful and probably very loud if firing moderate to maximum ammunition indoors, loaded down to .40 S&W levels it's still more powerful than 9mm is.

And just because you're inside doesn't mean you have to use Buffalo Bore or Underwood 10mm. A couple years ago when I started looking into .327 Federal, I thought to myself it might be better if when I'm home, at night, to load it with .32 S&W Long or moderate .32 H&R Magnum because .327 will be way too loud. At inside the home distances, the sights don't need to be reset for the lighter ammo, you'll be close enough to hit an intruder.

The same will do for 10mm and when you're out in the woods, you can use the hot stuff, which is WAY better than 9mm is for big, hairy creatures that don't like you being in their territory.

[Kvon2]

The great thing about 10mm is that while it is very powerful and probably very loud if firing moderate to maximum ammunition indoors, loaded down to .40 S&W levels it's still more powerful than 9mm is

but then why not just have a .40sw?

I understand the versatility argument and I think it's useful for hand loaders but I just feel like the majority of users aren't using it for such a broad range of things that they're loading down to 40, up to full potential and everywhere in between.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by Kvon2

but then why not just have a .40sw?

I understand the versatility argument and I think it's useful for hand loaders but I just feel like the majority of users aren't using it for such a broad range of things that they're loading down to 40, up to full potential and everywhere in between.

Why buy a .357 if all you're gonna use is .38 Special? Because you get one gun that can dish out .40 power and max 10mm power. There's a lot that 10mm can do that .40 can't, same with .357 and .38.

Maybe I'm an oddball, but I've always felt that if using something for home defense it's better to use less powerful than max power due to noise, flash, recoil, penetration, etc.

[disseminator]

Maybe I'm an oddball, but I've always felt that if using something for home defense it's better to use less powerful than max power due to noise, flash, recoil, penetration, etc.

Absolutely agree. The same is true for self defense use.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by disseminator

Absolutely agree. The same is true for self defense use.

To an extent. I don't feel that fully loaded 10mm is needed (or even desired because there's not enough real world evidence) for defense against people, but the good .40 S&W ammo has a lot of evidence to show it is a great stopper, a great barrier penatrator, and is superior to standard pressure and +P 9mm.

The 10mm's claim to fame is it is the one mainstream rimless pistol cartridge that is sufficient for large, dangerous game.

[Northof50]

Truthtellers -

A) Noise - in the heat of excitement, you won't even realize the noise. If you ever been handgun hunting, you realize you don't even notice the noise
B) Flash - why assume you'll be in the dark? Turn on a light
C) Recoil - true - But felt recoil has as much to do with the firearm than the cartridge
D) penetration - has more to do with bullet design than the power created by cartridge

[SonOfScubaDiver]

The great thing about 10mm is that while it is very powerful and probably very loud if firing moderate to maximum ammunition indoors, loaded down to .40 S&W levels it's still more powerful than 9mm is.

Ya know, this is the first point anyone has made concerning 10mm that has caused me to think that maybe I'd be interested in getting one. I'm a fan of 40, but haven't been all that interested in 10mm. I could get a 10mm and have 357/38 versatility out of one gun. Hellwrongwitcha Bruh?! You trying to make me go out and buy another gun?!?! See how ya are?

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by SonOfScubaDiver

Ya know, this is the first point anyone has made concerning 10mm that has caused me to think that maybe I'd be interested in getting one. I'm a fan of 40, but haven't been all that interested in 10mm. I could get a 10mm and have 357/38 versatility out of one gun. Hellwrongwitcha Bruh?! You trying to make me go out and buy another gun?!?! See how ya are?

How do you think I feel?

I bought a new Glock 35 two years ago because I wanted a .40 that was easy to convert to a 9mm. I could have just gotten a 10mm Glock instead, but at the time, reloading for 10mm wasn't on my mind. Seeing how it's coming back and seeing the versatility of it, I'm having second thoughts.

I mean, with the G35 it's still a great size for 9mm and .40 S&W. I know it will be reliable as the smaller magazines would probably wobble in the larger frame Glocks, but the 10mm is becoming more and more obvious as a better choice than .40 S&W.

BTW, you can convert any .45 ACP Glock to shoot 10mm with a barrel change and a stiffer recoil spring.